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I really want to make a daze spec, but...

katniss.6735

By katniss.6735
in Elementalist

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Allarius.5670

Allarius.5670

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@apharma.3741 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

I think it is reasonable to classify the Elementalist as a "jack-of-all-trades" based on weapon design, but to stop there is not respectful of the discussion, which encompasses full build design, because weapons are not the only contributing factor to a build.

Consider that weapons are not used in isolation; even if you discount traits and utilities, there is still the matter of profession mechanics (attunements for ele) and weapon swap (attunements for ele) to account for when comparing to other professions. Versatility of effects may still be larger, but I think it becomes considerably more marginalized when taking profession mechanics and weapon swap into account.

I think the sentiment of disagreement comes from the Elementalist achieving a great bit of their versatility by just slotting a single weapon (inherent to their design), but overall it feels lacking when comparing final products (complete builds).

I think it is reasonable to say "while the Elementalist is a jack-of-all-trades by weapon design, actual versatility currently fails in execution by contrast to the effectiveness and design of other professions in a PvP setting."

Reasonable, but I'm not sure that is even really the core of the underlying frustration others are trying to verbalize. I think there is also a component that isn't about the Elementalist's brand of versatility or its base effectiveness, but that there is a disparity in effectively leveraging it in an actual match as compared to the versatility offered by other professions.

Perhaps the Elementalist's design overvalues its baseline versatility and disparity results due to overperformance in other game settings.

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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

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@apharma.3741 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

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sokeenoppa.5384

sokeenoppa.5384

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@Jski.6180 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

""Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one."See, not all skills but MANY skills. So ele with celestial gear fits that.

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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

""Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one."See, not all skills but MANY skills. So ele with celestial gear fits that.

That the thing if you base balancing on a "figure of speech" then your doom to fail as this is a personification of an ideal that has real conquest for players and game play.Ele is not a figure of speech nor is it a "Jack of all trades, master of none" it is a jack of only a few trades, master of none and other class most of them in fact are jack of all trades, master of many.

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sokeenoppa.5384

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@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

""Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one."See, not all skills but MANY skills. So ele with celestial gear fits that.

That the thing if you base balancing on a "figure of speech" then your doom to fail as this is a personification of an ideal that has real conquest for players and game play.Ele is not a figure of speech nor is it a "Jack of all trades, master of none" it is a jack of only a few trades, master of none and other class most of them in fact are jack of all trades, master of many.

But ele is master atleast in pve dps and maybe in healing ^^

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Jski.6180

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

""Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one."See, not all skills but MANY skills. So ele with celestial gear fits that.

That the thing if you base balancing on a "figure of speech" then your doom to fail as this is a personification of an ideal that has real conquest for players and game play.Ele is not a figure of speech nor is it a "Jack of all trades, master of none" it is a jack of only a few trades, master of none and other class most of them in fact are jack of all trades, master of many.

But ele is master atleast in pve dps and maybe in healing ^^

Not any more! I would not call it a master in healing these days. Its the lost of fields having on par effects that realty pushed the old master effects ele use to have down.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

""Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one."See, not all skills but MANY skills. So ele with celestial gear fits that.

That the thing if you base balancing on a "figure of speech" then your doom to fail as this is a personification of an ideal that has real conquest for players and game play.Ele is not a figure of speech nor is it a "Jack of all trades, master of none" it is a jack of only a few trades, master of none and other class most of them in fact are jack of all trades, master of many.

But ele is master atleast in pve dps and maybe in healing ^^

Not any more! I would not call it a master in healing these days. Its the lost of fields having on par effects that realty pushed the old master effects ele use to have down.

How is tempest healer these days anyway? Atleast it was best at some point, lot better than druid.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

""Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one."See, not all skills but MANY skills. So ele with celestial gear fits that.

That the thing if you base balancing on a "figure of speech" then your doom to fail as this is a personification of an ideal that has real conquest for players and game play.Ele is not a figure of speech nor is it a "Jack of all trades, master of none" it is a jack of only a few trades, master of none and other class most of them in fact are jack of all trades, master of many.

But ele is master atleast in pve dps and maybe in healing ^^

Not any more! I would not call it a master in healing these days. Its the lost of fields having on par effects that realty pushed the old master effects ele use to have down.

How is tempest healer these days anyway? Atleast it was best at some point, lot better than druid.

Depends what you're doing and where. PvE it's capable of keeping an entire raid group alive, I'd argue FB likewse can and a good druid with a good group can but ele will do it easily and will also be a rez machine with arcane resurrection.

For WvW you can still play heal tempest for small scale and it works but holosmith is something you want to be very wary of and you need a class with you who can help nullify scourges or at least pressure them enough that they can't just focus down and corrupt the tempest. Large scale tempest has been entirely replace by firebrand, Firebrand is flat out broken in WvW.

PvP it's not meta but a good tempest can support the team as well as any other support, though FB is better (but more susceptible to burst as no invuln or stone skin) in some ways ele brings a lot of healing still with permanent protection and some handy auras and projectile hate.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Elementalist, jack of all traits, master of none....except max PvE damage.

I would suggest what class is not a jack of all triads? Elite spec killed that point of balancing a few years ago with HoT.

If any thing ele is less of a jack of all traits then all of the other classes in the game and its only getting worst with each elite spec they add to the ele class.

Even before HoT was ele realty a jack of all traits? It had major gaps in its game play mostly dealing with boons condis and the counter to such effects. It was never that tankly then any other class. What made the other classes so non jack of all traits. Even the very ideal of gw2 was non specialization of classes (no healers no tank no dps) what worth dose a jack of all traits have in a game like that?

At this point its a sick joke to ever think ele as a real jack of all traits with such major lack of traits that other classes had AND all the effect of the ele it self. I guess you could say this is a falsehood meme to call ele a jack of all traits at any point of GW2. Its like buffing shatterstone a cruel joke that makes ppl feel like ele is balanced and on part with other classes yet not.

You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Most classes do not have these benefits baseline no matter what weapon they use, sure they can with the right weapons and trait but they must invest in it. An ele has to invest in surviving but the weapon sets in general are extremely well rounded, this is one of the reasons it was so good with celestial.

But that not every thing in the game a class can do. By its very def ele is not a jack of all traits if it can do every thing in the game just not "well." The only thing you can call a jack of all traits is something that heals, dmg, tanks condi dmg and debuff, hard cc, boon strip, boon crouption, condi converstion, boon support, mass ports or movement support, has a viable pet, self support, barrier support (new from PoF), dmg support (less boon more blunt dmg +) (all i can think of now). Even if we lets some effect over lap to cover a few things you still have very big gaps in the ele tool bar at is core and even elite spec that keeps it from being a jack of all traits.

You do realise when people say jack of all trades master of none they don’t literally mean you do everything? They mean you can do decent at many things but you’re not the best at any one thing.

Yes FB and scourge are too strong, they do too much, that’s not a revelation to anyone, they should be brought down not everything creeped up to their level.

Then they are using the wrong words a jack of all trades is just that of ALL trades any thing less is not a jack of all trades. There are classes in gw2 who are true jack of all trades necro eng and gurd. These 3 classes can do EVERYTHING in the game but ele cant all though its the "jack of all trades" and for some reason its not doing every thing in the game and there are classes who are.

Anet not going to fix FB and scourge enofe to make the game balanced as there are class problems that need far more then number nerfs to fix. If anet in there last update was so hand off on there update your just not going to see it in any other update.

If all you can do is say other classes are op but ele is ok your living in a dream world thinking that going to fix any thing.

This is how power creep happens, class X is best support in HoT. Class Y and Z get given more tools for support, Y does far more support than any other class, Z does similar level of support to X but also more damage and debuffing.

If you then buff X to the same level as Y and Z you have power creeped not only Y and Z but X now and that’s without mentioning the support from the other 6 classes that was worse than X. This game is bleeding players because of the power creep, you might like the low risk spamfiesta this game has become but many, including myself do not.

It has happen already its too late to go back and stop thinking it will once something is changed every thing is changed along with it even the ppl who are using the classes are changed.

Nothing to do with buffing x y z its about lacking z and saying it has all 3 yet it dose not. The very ideal arone the ele class is a lie it cant do every thing its not important if it dose it well or not its at the very meaning of a word.

Still hung up on the jack of all trades comparison eh?

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one. To be a jack of all trades class it only needs access to a lot of options without being too narrowly focused. Every single weapon set ele has does a lot of different stuff, they all involve healing to allies, all have a bit of condition damage, all have combo finishers and usually fields, all have at least 2 forms of CC.

If ANet doesn’t reduce the power creep they won’t have a player base. That’s not speculation, look at how much it has dropped since HoT introduced all the power creep. Look at your own friends list at all the people who do not spend even half the time they used to playing. You can say it’s a dream and make up as many excuses as you want but power creep has and is continuing to drive players away.

I get that but if your argument is only about it not being a real thing meaning it can do every thing or simply means what you want it to mean at that moment then every class in this game would be called jack of all trades and your trying to simply rationalized why its ok to only call ele a jack of all trades yet not others as means of why ele is an over all weak class.

In a lot of ways your using the "jack of all trades" argument to wave away any thoughts of why its not ok for a class to be weaker then others namely ele and i am bluntly pointing out other classes who are both "jack of all trades" AND master of trades at the same time. The every idea of saying its ok for classes to have every thing and not hold up to the "jack of all trades" balancing ideal you have is super hypocritical and i am pointing out that flaw in logic.

Ele cant do every thing yet it still not a master of any thing. There are classes who can do every thing and they are master of many things. There IS a balancing problem in this game and your not going to have anet pull other classes down to ele level. Your very ideal of this game balancing are wrong and your only enabling anet to keep a 2 class system of have and have nots going.

No you don’t get it because you’re not looking at how ele weapons are designed vs how other classes weapons are designed.

As I said in my earlier comments:You pick any weapon set with ele and you will always have:A skill that heals alliesAt least 2 hard CCsDamaging conditions in 2 attunementsControl/debuff conditions in the other 2 elementsA number of combo finishersSome limited cleansing for self and allies on staff

Ele weapons are designed at their core to give a wider variety of uses over being highly specialised in what they do like a lot of other classes. Find me any other class that has all of this on any weapon set they can choose
without traits and utilities
. This is where the jack of all trades reference comes from. To get this level of versatility most classes require some traiting and usually varying amounts of utility skills as well as being locked into certain weapon choices.

It’s one of the reasons you won’t have a pure high amount of long (1s) dazes in a build like you can find in other classes. The nearest you get is Sw/F weaver with reduced air and water cool downs which can give you a decent amount of CC to throw out from polaric leap, comet, gale, and gale strike. Other possible options are overload air shocking aura spam tempest but requires full melee almost for the enemies to be CC spammed and can be interrupted.

Edit: the problem is also the OP has pretty much already said they wish to rigidly stick to staff and weaver while ruling out a lot of options people suggested.

Still no boon control and a lack of good condi dmg. These are part of the game and are needed to fill that jack of all trades.

As for cc all classes have them and often you find all classes can do every thing with just one wepon set. Ele as well as all other classes are not just there wepons at least you should not think of them that way. Ele oddly is more wepon base then other classes (dose not fit being a mages one bit) but even ele has more then its wepon yet it still lacks all effects in the game.

""Jack of all trades, master of none" is a figure of speech used in reference to a person who has dabbled in many skills, rather than gaining expertise by focusing on one."See, not all skills but MANY skills. So ele with celestial gear fits that.

That the thing if you base balancing on a "figure of speech" then your doom to fail as this is a personification of an ideal that has real conquest for players and game play.Ele is not a figure of speech nor is it a "Jack of all trades, master of none" it is a jack of only a few trades, master of none and other class most of them in fact are jack of all trades, master of many.

But ele is master atleast in pve dps and maybe in healing ^^

Not any more! I would not call it a master in healing these days. Its the lost of fields having on par effects that realty pushed the old master effects ele use to have down.

How is tempest healer these days anyway? Atleast it was best at some point, lot better than druid.

Depends what you're doing and where. PvE it's capable of keeping an entire raid group alive, I'd argue FB likewse can and a good druid with a good group can but ele will do it easily and will also be a rez machine with arcane resurrection.

For WvW you can still play heal tempest for small scale and it works but holosmith is something you want to be very wary of and you need a class with you who can help nullify scourges or at least pressure them enough that they can't just focus down and corrupt the tempest. Large scale tempest has been entirely replace by firebrand, Firebrand is flat out broken in WvW.

PvP it's not meta but a good tempest can support the team as well as any other support, though FB is better (but more susceptible to burst as no invuln or stone skin) in some ways ele brings a lot of healing still with permanent protection and some handy auras and projectile hate.

I realty think the new eng is going to take any thing tempest could do and put it to shame.

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