Root Issues with Revenant/Herald/Renegade

[lordhelmos.7623]

PROBLEM AREAS:

1.) Incredibly weak condition removal options. This has been known for a long time.

2.) Too much complexity in resource management. Revenants have to spend both energy and deal with CD timers to do things classes can simply do normally with just global CDs and no resource requirement at all. Energy should enhance skill use, not prevent it.

3.) Very weak sustain and healing. Revenants need to burn the heals on both of their legends just to get the effect other classes get using one heal skill.

4.) No mobility. Revenants have the the weakest mobility kit in the game, sporting very few leaps, teleports, or superspeed.

PROPOSED SOLUTIONS:

1.) Straight buffing is what we need here. More condition removal needs to be spread through the kit in both passive and active skills.

2.) All Revenant skills with CDs should be usable without costing energy with the exception of a few (such as impossible odds). Energy costs should just be flat out removed from many weapon skills and abilities. Skills that cost energy should be enhanced when energy is available but still usable in a weaker form if they are not a channel and already have a CD. The development/balance mindset for revenant energy should be ENHANCE NOT PREVENT skill use.

3.) All Revenant heals should be buffed to be independently strong and should share a global CD system.

4.) Straight buffing here. Superspeed + leaps + teleports added to more skills:

Ventari - Natural Harmony grants superspeed.Shortbow - Sevenshot should make the revenant invul when fired then teleport them to the apex where the arrows meet.Mallyx: Increase leap range of unyielding anguish to 900Offhand Axe: Frigid Blitz simplified into a targeting circle that teleports you to the location then does a spin attack that hits with aoe damage and chill. Fast and simple. Use warrior axe 2 for the animation.

[Justine.6351]

Every "problem" you listed has a solution within the various kits already.And removing energy costs is not a solution. Reducing energy costs to match inflated cooldowns from nerfs is.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Making the heals share a global CD is just not compatible with Ventari, as its heal skill has a very different functionality from the rest of them. I do think that Shiro could have more base healing at the cost of less siphon healing. I feel like the Mallyx heal should also give a bit of resistance baseline.

Natural Harmony already does enough as is. I'd rather a radius increase to increase its reliability. Superspeed does fit with Ventari's kit though, as it is the centaur stance. I could see it maybe being implemented into Purifying Essence? I do worry a bit that group superspeed on a 5s CD would be too strong, though. Do you ever try playing with Swift Gale for superspeed access? I find that trait to be really underrated.

A little bit of love for Unyielding Anguish would be nice. I have seen suggestions for either a range increase or an evade, and I think either would be nice. Do you think making it teleport like its underwater version would take away from Shiro's identity?

[DeceiverX.8361]

A major part of the problem is that basically none of the legends are standalone on the concept level which leads to over-dependence on a select few and really no natural synergy. You can't just make small tweaks to a build by swapping one utility; you need to build around swapping all of them at once which can be hard to make traits work.

ANet's solution to rev's problems just seem to be numbers powercreep which ultimately always need nerfs in competitive given the magnitude of how strong individual effects need to be given this failure of design making the behave feel innately weak/slow.

Rev is a fundamentally broken class on the basis that it either has access to too much and can double-up on a heal or that it needs to try twice as hard to get the same as every other profession.

The energy system is fine, but util locking isn't; really, legends should just provide a few very niche skills on F2 and F3 to change the tempo of a fight and add synergy and flavor to a build rather than wholly define the entirety of the class' performance and strictly couple most of the high-level areas of design while leaving little room for conceptual changes and proper numbers tweaks.

[Milan.9035]

No mobility? Wtf you playing jalis and ventari or something. Rev mobility is fine. Condi removal is a problem yes. And anything thats not herald is also a problem for pvp. Class was clearly created with herald in mind.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

Condition Removal and overall way too easy to counterplay.

Every rev skill is completely readable and counterable, there's like almost no surprise when fighting one. But it doesn't have the durability or Stability of guardian or warrior.

It often feels like we have no heal skill when the enemy can just stow weapon to deny Infuse Light (heal activation heals less than 2k) because they can literally see the facet ready on our status bar.

[meri.9187]

I complain about rev as much as the next guy but some stuff you've written here is just plain off base.

We have the weakest mobility in the game? Riposting Shadows, Phase, offhand sword, axe, Swift Gale to get you out of trouble, what about that?

Too much complexity? No. Energy management separates a good rev from a bad rev and I, for one, am not interested in making the class even easier to pick up and faceroll.

Global CDs on heals would remove even more of what makes this class unique.

Some of the issues here are valid, such as the condi cleanse and (these days) weak overall sustain. But making energy easier to manage and changing heal cd to be global is NOT the way to do it.

[schmots.6803]

Condition clear needs to be better, and slightly more DPS output. Revenant is one of my favorite professions because I like the concept, and even the play format.. but I mainly solo PvE and the constant defeats when conditions mount, two many mobs, or gods forbid a champion takes a shine to me pushes me back to all my alts.

[Aeolus.3615]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:I complain about rev as much as the next guy but some stuff you've written here is just plain off base.

We have the weakest mobility in the game? Riposting Shadows, Phase, offhand sword, axe, Swift Gale to get you out of trouble, what about that?

Too much complexity? No. Energy management separates a good rev from a bad rev and I, for one, am not interested in making the class even easier to pick up and faceroll.

Global CDs on heals would remove even more of what makes this class unique.

Some of the issues here are valid, such as the condi cleanse and (these days) weak overall sustain. But making energy easier to manage and changing heal cd to be global is NOT the way to do it.

I think shield needs some love :\, they are just 2 extra healign skills, maybe shield should have 1 healing suport skill, and a better herald heal, while shield 5 would be something else.Song of the mists, IMO is weak(useless), could be something better towards legends, barrier what on jalis, max i ever gained with that was arround 300 barrier ! LoL, simply useless.

Well about condi rev has some support there:-Condi cleanse on legend swap-Soothing stone clears now 5 condis, a damage reducing for 1-2 seconds would be nice as well :P--Versed in stone -50% condi damage, every 1min, when HP is low.-Rite of the great dwarf + versed in stone, will make Rite elite skill, be a 50% damage 50% condi damage reducer

• Harmonize contuinity, whenever u and your close allies get CC use, jalis to Aoe stunbreaker plus the above damage reducing.-Vengfull hammers, 20% condi and normal damage reducer, maybe could get another buff on -1e pip, or we could have a rune that would offer +1e pip.-Pain absortion (can be spammed and it is a resistance aoe)-Demonic defiance, every 5sec using a Demon utilities gives players resistance-several traits to get minor heals trough, using energy and whenever receives a condi.-Eluding nulifications, every 10 a dodge will cleance 1 condi aoe.-Purifying Essense, heals per condi removed and can remove 3 condis from each ally, 5sec recharge, need some e-management.-Energy expulsion also clears condi.

Ofc we cannot trait all LoL, and when ganked by more than 1 condi spammer it is a impossible fight, but in team play Rev has quite of some interesting choices.Rev can even give alacrity :) with a base heal of 1300.

[Justine.6351]

I don't actually think condi removal is the revs problem as much as the number of conditions that exist and certain classes that can dump out the multitudes of it. But that kind of starts falling into the realm of hard counter which isn't necessarily wrong.

[otto.5684]

I strongly agree regarding condition removal. I agree regarding energy, though it needs minor adjustments. Power rev and renegade have sustainability issues. Condi rev not at all. Lack of mobility?! What are you drinking?! I mean ya, it ain’t thief, but rev has tons of mobility in and out of combat. Unless you are renegade.

The prime weakness of rev is condi remove/corrupt. As power rev it forces you to play way on the fringe. Man, thief in most team fights have it better than rev. It is the main issue for condi rev which needs to be in he thick of team battles and cannot function at all with resistance and stability.

As for renegade in PvP it is pure shit. Every weakness you mentioned and then some apply to it and it has no advantages in any shape or form.

[messiah.1908]

have you watch the 5v5 tournament U.S?only 1 rev played by great player which makes his team most of the time played like 5v4. he couldnt rotate like thief, could control had pressure on point much and when was focused died in seconds...although the team had great rotation and reaction time still it is safe to assume rev needs some love

how?condi durability - anet dont wants us to have cleanse rather reduce dmg so increase it. mallyx should be dominate with condition and resistance, jallis with reduce dmg which should be longer, maybe invocation line should give reduce duration time by 50% for 5 sec when you swap legends.heal skills - herald and shiro need more love regarding healing skill. not much but bit more. so more initial heal to shiro versus reducing the leeching and herald a passive proc every sec which combine with regen to about 300 healing per second.dmg out put is good atm.mobility is good atm although warrior can have the same mobility from point to point.energy system is great and unique. dont change it

[Carighan.6758]

Interesting.

When I read "root issues", I thought you were going to speak about underlying design issues, not specifical in-detail implementation issues.

As far as those underlying design issues go, I still feel the biggest one, and this really impacts the class at every corner, is that in GW2 we specialize too much.By design (with it's swapping legends each offering a totally different set of healing / utility / elite skills) a Revenant is a bit of a "hybrid". Say for example I use Shiro and Mallyx, the latter is obviously about DoTs, the former about DD, so I end up being ~full DPS conceptually but how I deal my damage should be lopsided according to which legend I currently use, yes?

Only, that's not how GW2 works. Due to the amount of knobs we turn during player customization, whatever focus on gets pushed up to ridiculous degrees. If I build my gear / traits / sigils / runes for DoTs, then in Shiro I'll still deal the vast majority of my damage via DoTs. I never actually "swap to direct damage". I don't suddenly become a "real" healer by using Ventari.

And therein lies a big underlying problem of Revenant: More so than even Elementalist with it's 20 equipped weapon skills, Rev is supposed to be a role-swapper. In a game which hates anything but hyper-specialization. It just doesn't fit.

I do think this can be mitigated without changing the underlying mechanics, but it'd be a weird way. What I'd propose is massively nerfing the damage and healing base values (but not the scaling!) on all of your skills, then giving each legend ludicrous-sounding passive bonuses (not through a trait, this is baseline). For example Shiro could give you +600 power and +400 precision and ferocity, plus all your attacks have a procs-per-minute chance of consuming a DoT by you to instantly deal the remaining damage on it in one direct damage hit. In turn Mallyx would give you +800 condition damage and +400 expertise, plus your attacks proc bleeding with a variable chance based on how "condition-free" the target is. And so on. Ventari would forcibly turn you into a healer.However, with the base power lowered (and I mean significantly) as it is, you also become sorta bad at what you swap out of. Even with full Zerker gear and all, swapping out of Shiro would tank your direct damage. This should be made up by the gain in whatever you swap into, that's how strong the passive effects would have to be.

I think most other class issues I'd tackle later. Granted, ideally the game gets an underlying change to be less about hyper-specialization, but I can't see that happening in a game >5y old. But the class we have just doesn't fit :disappointed: that design. At all.

[Hindenburg.3415]

Yep , i am new player in general ( 2 months ) and to revenant also. I like the style and mechanic but have a strong feeling something is missing.Without Jalis its not enought condi cleanse even in PVE.

[Aigleborgne.2981]

I don't want to improve shiro base heal. Shiro is a life stealer. He was in gw1 and so are his healing daggers along with devastation.I would rather see more life steal per dagger and better healing coefficient. So if you can deliver all hits, you would get good heal. It is more interesting and rewarding than a passive heal with very minor life steal.

As an idea, what if shiro dagger could heal the same as damage done, including critical damage ?

Making revenant more standard and simple would kill most of the things I like about it.

Condi clear is my main concern as I fear condi like hell on my rev. I dont like jalis or ventari, so I'm left with almost no tools to clear...

[yiksing.9432]

1. Rev was primarily designed with resistance in mind and not condi removal when it first launched, iirc resistance wasn't on the corrupt table that time. Resistance was balanced when traited with corruption with demon stance equipped in the early days in 1v1 as it has its downtime even when spammed. That was ok. The problem was when a rev is in a group of people getting spammed with condi, the resistance duration would become permanently on, anet fixed it by making it corruptable, needless to say its gotten worse with scourge.

2. Resource management is somewhat complex but it only needs minor tweaking, it is not too bad. Just avoid spamming and it works fine imo, I main a thief with initiative so it plays the same in this regard. If I spammed skills on my thief, I become a sitting duck or can't finish people off.

3. I have both for and against this, the way it is your healing skill is tied to your stance but it would be nice to have heal skill be independently selectable from stance. I'm against this because if they do make this independent, what's gonna stop them from making all the utility skills from being independent too. However this is an easy fix. Just minor tweaks to different heals when traited.

4. I do not have issues with this so I can't really comment much.

[TheRubberDucky.1045]

Most of the issues that there are for rev become minor irritations once you spend time getting better at the class rather than waiting around for anet to make the class "easier to play", sure there are things that do need to be fixed or changed, but after all this time ive spent getting better at my absolute favaorite class in gw2 using what i had to work with i d rather anet didnt make the class a "press this button and win"-tbh all i want is my original health pool and my stability on dodge roll back and ill be a happy camper

[narcx.3570]

@lordhelmos.7623 said:4.) No mobility. Revenants have the the weakest mobility kit in the game, sporting very few leaps, teleports, or superspeed.

Allow me to introduce you to my friend, Shiro Tagachi and his magical offhand sword.

[Aigleborgne.2981]

@narcx.3570 said:

@lordhelmos.7623 said:4.) No mobility. Revenants have the the weakest mobility kit in the game, sporting very few leaps, teleports, or superspeed.

Allow me to introduce you to my friend, Shiro Tagachi and his magical offhand sword.

Can't agree more. Shiro and his amazing mobility are the main reason I love revenant. I strongly think that rev/shiro is the most mobile class after thief. And to some extent, it can even be the best (when spamming mobility at the detriment of dps).Now without shiro and sword, mobility is very low.