Why aren’t soulbeasts wanted in any squad?

[anduriell.6280]

So last day I had to read and listen (in discord) some disheartening comments about why rangers aren’t wanted in any squad..

• they don’t bring support
• Druid is worst than firebrand at healing
• They don’t do damage
• They are dead weight

But with the soulbeast the ranger got share stances and with LB + trait we can pierce up to 5 enemies.

Is it true? Is Souldbeast damage so low? (I don’t use arcdps)Aren’t the shared stances useful?Why is the ranger kicked from squads when even the thieves are kept (they have their uses because of their speed and stealth).

[intox.6347]

@anduriell.6280 said:So last day I had to read and listen (in discord) some disheartening comments about why rangers aren’t wanted in any squad..

• they don’t bring support
• Druid is worst than firebrand at healing
• They don’t do damage
• They are dead weight

But with the soulbeast the ranger got share stances and with LB + trait we can pierce up to 5 enemies.

Is it true? Is Souldbeast damage so low? (I don’t use arcdps)Aren’t the shared stances useful?Why is the ranger kicked from squads when even the thieves are kept (they have their uses because of their speed and stealth).

All about ranger / druid / soulbeast is built about few things... most ranger are longbow dummies pew pew all day.... (not all but a lot of them)Exclude out druid... that can be useful, but u can have better option for heal / support.

So whats that mean....

• They dont need that much stability, resistance and healing like frontliners...
• They dont provide group stability and resistance or some usable support... not many of them build around stanceshare..
• They cant shoot much into stacked zerg.. coz of projectile reflects ... we have tons of reflect bubles in each fight .. buble from wars, firebrands are everywhere. And you mostly take into face reflected rapid fire...
• Soulbeast and druid are good roamers and focusers.... you can pick slow target and kill him... but its same role in group like thief... thats why they are not good in squad...

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

What's ironic is that projectile-hate is not super effective against Soulbeast, as they actually have very good unblockable uptime.

If I were leading a squad, I would welcome Soulbeasts so long as they brought unblockablility and stance share with Dolyak Stance and Bear Stance. The rest I can take or leave overall.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Why take a Soulbeast if you could take :

1. Scourge
2. Firebrand
3. Spellbreaker
4. Hammer Revenant
5. Chrono
6. Weaver
7. Support Tempest
8. Support Rev
9. Reaper
10. Base Necro
11. Base Guardian
12. Dragonhunter
13. Base Ele
14. Druide
15. Base Mesmer
16. Mirage
17. Base Warrior

(Not in any special order)

Thats it.Thats the reason.

Nobody says Soulbeast is bad , but there are way to many better options.

I does not matter how many player can be in a squad.You want only the best in slot option and if you dont have that , then the next best in slot.

Why is the ranger kicked from squads when even the thieves are kept (they have their uses because of their speed and stealth).

From my experience , the chance that a thief does not know what he is doing is rather low.But try to find a Ranger Player ( any kind ) that knows what he / she is doing. GOOD LUCK.

I have seen some amazing thiefs that do a great job , even in zerg fights.I cant say the same from Ranger Players.

[Henrik.7560]

Too much of a pain to ask a soulbeast to run what you want, usually they only play their own pewpew builds and are hardly ever in coms.FB does better heals and gives stability and resistance than druidWeaver does same damage as soulbeast except to 10 people instead of 1 plus doesnt rely on projectilesIt is just better for a roaming spec not a group comp spec, they're trash in melee usually and can't push with commander instead have to sit on a wall and pewpew

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:What's ironic is that projectile-hate is not super effective against Soulbeast, as they actually have very good unblockable uptime.

If I were leading a squad, I would welcome Soulbeasts so long as they brought unblockablility and stance share with Dolyak Stance and Bear Stance. The rest I can take or leave overall.

Yeah but let's face it: An overwhelming majority want to run their glass cannon pewpew MMS builds.

Which I am absolutely guilty of wanting to do myself, which is why I don't zerg with mine.

Without holding their attacks back until unblockables are around, a few soulbeasts can wipe your own frontline easily. For a lot of commanders, the risk isn't worth taking.

Plus, generally speaking, scourge/ele/rev is just superior. Yeah, SB offers some support, but the uptime it brings is pretty low compared to an ele or hammer rev as far as reliable big damage goes that won't be reflected back.

[Krypto.2069]

@"anduriell.6280" said:So last day I had to read and listen (in discord) some disheartening comments about why rangers aren’t wanted in any squad..

• they don’t bring support
• Druid is worst than firebrand at healing
• They don’t do damage
• They are dead weight

But with the soulbeast the ranger got share stances and with LB + trait we can pierce up to 5 enemies.

Is it true? Is Souldbeast damage so low? (I don’t use arcdps)Aren’t the shared stances useful?Why is the ranger kicked from squads when even the thieves are kept (they have their uses because of their speed and stealth).

When I'm on my SoulB (or DD for that matter), I'm usually in a GANKING kind of mood, ya know? :trollface:I'll either roam/scout or if I'm running along side the zerg (and out of squad), I see it as my job to take out those enemy players who are out of position, especially enemy Necros and other light and medium classes (Ele's, Mezmers, etc.) during a fight. I try to position myself well and distant (sometimes up on a perch). I gank and try to finish the downs as my zerg ball clashes into the enemy's. And I try to keep their militia from returning to the fight.

Do I need to be in squad? No, definitely not.

Do I bring support to the squad? No, not with my build... I'm all assassin, baby! :sunglasses:Do I do damage? DAM STRAIGHT I Do! (Ask the JOKO's that just got sent to spawn if a Soulbeast does damage or not.) :wink:Am I dead weight? If I'm in the squad pretending to play a roll I'm not designed or geared for, yes, I could be. But I don't put myself in that position.

Bottom line is this: every class has its use. People generally harass rangers because it's the "noob" class. But like any class/spec, if played well and to its designed strengths, it has its uses in WvW. You just have to know where you fit.

Cheers!

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

It's interesting to me how many people don't really get that soulbeast (one or two) can be a pretty decent thing to have on a backline in a squad. If you know what you're doing you can provide a lot of damage from range. All this talk about reflects negating the pewpews?? I run Soulbeast almost exclusively with the fight group I run with. I run it because I know how to use it effectively. Sure I could add to the number of firebrands, scourges, spellbreakers, etc that we have but meh... that gets boring.

Glass cannon? My soulbeast is built as nasty as a so called zerk but with plenty of health etc to go along with it. One notable bonus of a sniper class like soulbeast is that if you know how to look for spellbreakers, (which I do well), you can take them out pretty fast since they're already trying to survive a lot of other damage.

Typically my soulbeast starts off with the following before stacks,(which, in a typical night I get in a few seconds into the first fight):

Power: 2500+Crit: 60%+Crit damage: 200%+Health: 22.7kToughness: 1000+

Toughness is low and to me that truly doesn't matter much since it doesn't protect against condition damage anyway. I find it's not a factor in pretty much any fights I get into. With stacks and buffs my crit can hit over 100% and power over 3000. I get a LOT of kills in a fight from the back line.

You can talk all day long about support buffs etc. but it definitely helps if you have some extra nasty fire power coming from behind. ... and again... reflects? Don't make me laugh really... I can honestly say that I can remember maybe once or twice in the last week of constant fights where I actually got bounced back with a reflect. By the time I am raining on the enemy inside our WoD or simply where the main fight is they've wasted their reflects trying to survive the up close and personal fighting.

I admit that I WILL switch to spellbreaker or firebrand if we are running lean and need a good core for fights. But if we swell into a good size (20 or more) of good fight builds, then I will switch back out to my sniper. Powering down/finishing specific targets like enemy spellbreakers even while they're inside their group is nothing short of fun... and definitely supportive!

This won't convince the folks that are already anti soulbeast etc but it works for us a huge amount of the time... but as noted above you really have to know what you're doing and do it fairly decently. That's the main reason my commander never complains on my choice of class to run for the night ;)

[Henry.5713]

Soulbeasts could rival heralds as supportive brawlers if they ever changed Leader of the Pack. Shared stances at 150% duration would be a huge deal. Stong condition removal, immunity to immobilizes, defensive boons, etc. Not to mention additional utility and burst depending on your choice of pet. That is if they ever consider a change like that. There are certainly many better options even outside of the big three right now.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:It's interesting to me how many people don't really get that soulbeast (one or two) can be a pretty decent thing to have on a backline in a squad. If you know what you're doing you can provide a lot of damage from range. All this talk about reflects negating the pewpews?? I run Soulbeast almost exclusively with the fight group I run with. I run it because I know how to use it effectively. Sure I could add to the number of firebrands, scourges, spellbreakers, etc that we have but meh... that gets boring.

Glass cannon? My soulbeast is built as nasty as a so called zerk but with plenty of health etc to go along with it. One notable bonus of a sniper class like soulbeast is that if you know how to look for spellbreakers, (which I do well), you can take them out pretty fast since they're already trying to survive a lot of other damage.

Typically my soulbeast starts off with the following before stacks,(which, in a typical night I get in a few seconds into the first fight):

Power: 2500+Crit: 60%+Crit damage: 200%+Health: 22.7kToughness: 1000+

Toughness is low and to me that truly doesn't matter much since it doesn't protect against condition damage anyway. I find it's not a factor in pretty much any fights I get into. With stacks and buffs my crit can hit over 100% and power over 3000. I get a LOT of kills in a fight from the back line.

You can talk all day long about support buffs etc. but it definitely helps if you have some extra nasty fire power coming from behind. ... and again... reflects? Don't make me laugh really... I can honestly say that I can remember maybe once or twice in the last week of constant fights where I actually got bounced back with a reflect. By the time I am raining on the enemy inside our WoD or simply where the main fight is they've wasted their reflects trying to survive the up close and personal fighting.

I admit that I WILL switch to spellbreaker or firebrand if we are running lean and need a good core for fights. But if we swell into a good size (20 or more) of good fight builds, then I will switch back out to my sniper. Powering down/finishing specific targets like enemy spellbreakers even while they're inside their group is nothing short of fun... and definitely supportive!

This won't convince the folks that are already anti soulbeast etc but it works for us a huge amount of the time... but as noted above you really have to know what you're doing and do it fairly decently. That's the main reason my commander never complains on my choice of class to run for the night ;)

You see >>>> If you know what you're doing <<<<< is the important part here.You can give a totaly new player a Blood magic Scourge build and he is a usefull part of the squad in like an hour.

For a Soulbeast to become usefull , the player need alot of practice. And most people that play Ranger dont have that.

Thats mostly because they never try other classes and see how much more usefull they could be.

On the Power Dmg part.

The question is "What are you going to kill with it?"(We asume all player have equal skill level)

Meta Guard ( any spec) will not die to this. To tanky.Meta Scourge (blood) also will not die to this.They have perma Protection without guard support , dmg reduction from Blood as Sand , high toughness , high healthpool and more.

Meta Weaver maybe or a Rev.So 60-70% of every pug zerg "should" never die to this , even without the use of Reflection.( Bad / below avarage Guard / Scourge player will definitely die to this.)

And if a projectile based build would become dangerous enough to change the chance of winning in the enemies favor.Then the zerg will slot anti projectile skills.

YES. A soulbeast can be good but the average soulbeast is not.

It all depends on the skill level of all players , enemy and ally.

[Sovereign.1093]

in my squad it's ok. you have aes and very high dps to focus enemy rev scourge ele or com.

but we dont want to many rangers. like we prefer to have atleast 3 wars and not more than 10 in a 50 squad.

=)

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:It's interesting to me how many people don't really get that soulbeast (one or two) can be a pretty decent thing to have on a backline in a squad. If you know what you're doing you can provide a lot of damage from range. All this talk about reflects negating the pewpews?? I run Soulbeast almost exclusively with the fight group I run with. I run it because I know how to use it effectively. Sure I could add to the number of firebrands, scourges, spellbreakers, etc that we have but meh... that gets boring.

Glass cannon? My soulbeast is built as nasty as a so called zerk but with plenty of health etc to go along with it. One notable bonus of a sniper class like soulbeast is that if you know how to look for spellbreakers, (which I do well), you can take them out pretty fast since they're already trying to survive a lot of other damage.

Typically my soulbeast starts off with the following before stacks,(which, in a typical night I get in a few seconds into the first fight):

Power: 2500+Crit: 60%+Crit damage: 200%+Health: 22.7kToughness: 1000+

Toughness is low and to me that truly doesn't matter much since it doesn't protect against condition damage anyway. I find it's not a factor in pretty much any fights I get into. With stacks and buffs my crit can hit over 100% and power over 3000. I get a LOT of kills in a fight from the back line.

You can talk all day long about support buffs etc. but it definitely helps if you have some extra nasty fire power coming from behind. ... and again... reflects? Don't make me laugh really... I can honestly say that I can remember maybe once or twice in the last week of constant fights where I actually got bounced back with a reflect. By the time I am raining on the enemy inside our WoD or simply where the main fight is they've wasted their reflects trying to survive the up close and personal fighting.

I admit that I WILL switch to spellbreaker or firebrand if we are running lean and need a good core for fights. But if we swell into a good size (20 or more) of good fight builds, then I will switch back out to my sniper. Powering down/finishing specific targets like enemy spellbreakers even while they're inside their group is nothing short of fun... and definitely supportive!

This won't convince the folks that are already anti soulbeast etc but it works for us a huge amount of the time... but as noted above you really have to know what you're doing and do it fairly decently. That's the main reason my commander never complains on my choice of class to run for the night ;)The problem with this is the age old question of "but is there another class that does it better?". Of course you can do good on any class if you are a good player, but in this case... for example the mesmer does it better. Why? Because not only can they fulfill the exact same role, they also bypass reflects, does more AoE at range, has several skills that zergs can use and directly counter the ranger at its own game due to good reflects (seen careless zerker rangers kill themselves) plus the ability to quickly get up their face.

I dont really mind soulbeasts as flankers, I just know they're not really that helpful in combat. Though I suppose one become a little biased when the vast majority of rangers are just plain bad.

[Leo.5829]

The short version is: don't bring your ranger into WvW at all. There are better Squad alternatives that do better everything (dps, reliably hitting anything, healing, boons, condi clear...) and there are better roaming alternatives that have more stealth, more burst, more everything (specially Mesmer and Thief).Pains me to say that as a Ranger Main.

[Victory.2879]

I'm currently maining Ranger in wvw (when I'm online, which isn't often). Stance build with sharing, fairly tanky and know how to position and when to be in the push, etc and when to split off and cap side objectives or pester scourges into turning tail.

The objective is not always to kill the enemy- it's to stop them producing damage/turning them/distracting several/crippling or provide last gasp support when required.

I'm going to agree with most posters- unless played WELL, almost anything else is better to bring. However, if you get a few decent players on it you can make a difference when facing the typical scourge heavy enemy blob.

[EDDIE WRECKER.1375]

@Leo.5829 said:The short version is: don't bring your ranger into WvW at all. There are better Squad alternatives that do better everything (dps, reliably hitting anything, healing, boons, condi clear...) and there are better roaming alternatives that have more stealth, more burst, more everything (specially Mesmer and Thief).Pains me to say that as a Ranger Main.

I disagree. I roam as a ranger main and have been for years through thick and thin. Atm have a SB roaming build that is very competitive vs most other roaming builds and if I cant beat them I can out run, change up utilities and re-engage, or follow and wait for favourable scenerios to pan out. ranger has many unblockables, cc, stab, might stacking etc. You run a SB you dont need a squad. I love picking off the slowbis and reinforcements they try and boost enemy numbers. Killing one or two people in of thier zerg is fun when thier server pop are all to busy stacking on commander and too scared to move from the blob.

Sb is the best of anything? No, for each thing there is better classes, but if you use all of the tools of sb properly, you dont need to be the best at one thing lol

I also believe SB is a big learning curve, there is always a lot more going on behind the pew pew. the pew pew is only one dimension of the class, a cover if you will.

One more thing, blockers and reflect class rely too much on blocks, stealthers rely to much on stealth, SB can easily to be made to counter these crutches.

Back on topic, SB can make a huge difference working on the flanks.

[Reflex.5286]

You either suck at Ranger and they are letting you down lightly or you are in an inexperienced group.

Our main group runs 2 soulbeasts and offer some of the highest hitting frontline damage in the game.10 Stacks of stability granted to group on push.Fury.SwiftnessRegen.

Resistance and condi cleanse to group (if you pet manage properly)

While none of this will be as good as firebrand support. You are able to take care of yourself as well as push super backline and 2 shot anyone wearing Berserker gear or scourges.

People need to realize the Power meta never went away, People just found easier things to play. Be a good ranger, don't rely so heavily on your longbow for group fights and prove your worth. If your groups can't see your value then you need to find a new group.

But of course you could just suck.

Bad rangers stay super backline and plink away for maybe 9-10k damage.

Good rangers are in the front dropping 30-40k combos on anyone unlucky enough to get caught. And bad rangers who want to lean on their longbow for mediocre damage.

[Israel.7056]

Because other things occupy a similar role and do more for the squad with less effort.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

@Israel.7056 said:Because other things occupy a similar role and do more for the squad with less effort.

True.... but as long as we have the numbers and variety we need I will slip my sb in there! ?

[SkyShroud.2865]

Because people only want the best. It is nothing personal.You can only have that many people in WvW, you can only have that many people in squad.

Just compare what soulbeast can do and what other classes can do in WvW zerg, the result is obvious.

It is really simple math.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I think this is a key point that might get lost in the verbiage above:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Without holding their attacks back until unblockables are around, a few soulbeasts can wipe your own frontline easily. For a lot of commanders, the risk isn't worth taking.

Every time I pop up e.g. a mesmer reflect, I get tons of numbers. Even if I continuum split two in a row, it doesn't stop projectile-happy players from happily projecting projectiles. (The only exception I've seen is up against known GvG-savvy groups, but that's moot for the OP's situation.)

In other words, there is an actual risk, so we can imagine why a commander might not want to wait for the first wipe to see if the rangers in the squad did or did not contribute to projectile-hate-related friendly fire.

So sure, there's a prejudice against Rangers and sure, like nearly all biases, it stems in part from misunderstandings and extrapolating behavior of all rangers from the example of the worst ones. Regardless, I hope ranger fans can see how a typical Pugmander can't depend on random rangers remembering re: reflects.

(Of course, there are all sorts of ways that PUGlings can screw up a fight, so this arguably might not be the most effective response.)

[volpenvieh.3201]

Soulbeast isn't that bad actually, a lot of players just don't want to bother with it because ranger has always been a burden to the Zerg. Sure, it's not an ideal class, blabla, but it can be put to use (especially since there's always those times when no one seems to be willing to play firebrand and the squad consists of backline only). Also, it's probably easier to convince those players who never play anything other than ranger to adept their build than it is to finally make them switch class, so maybe we should just start handing them useful soulbeast builds instead.

[Rampage.7145]

@anduriell.6280A very good soulbeasts can do a ton of impact on a fight, but generally speaking 99.9999% of ranger players in this game are idiots who don't know how to play, so giving this nobody take on those odds and invite you to a squad when they can invite some random guardian/scourge that even played by a retard will do an ok job inside a party/squad, you can try to apply for a WvW guild tho, i am sure some guilds will welcome a good pin sniper i mean soulbeast to their ranks,ranger is a very niche class so if all u wanna do is play with mainstream groups, pugs and whatnot u are better of playing a mainstream class aka guardian/necro.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

Rangers in particular should never really be with the zerg. They are great at picking out low targets, and the other zergs backliners, this means you won't be near the group, so even if you shared stances, you wouldn't be in range to do so. A good ranger targets backline weavers and scourges. Scourge gets wrecked by rangers, as they have no reflects, and only 1 projectile hate skill that, IMO, is just bad to run. You give up either a stun break, an AOE boonstrip, or a well, all of which are much better options than corrosive poison cloud.

[Majirah.5089]

@anduriell.6280 said:So last day I had to read and listen (in discord) some disheartening comments about why rangers aren’t wanted in any squad..

• they don’t bring support
• Druid is worst than firebrand at healing
• They don’t do damage
• They are dead weight

But with the soulbeast the ranger got share stances and with LB + trait we can pierce up to 5 enemies.

Is it true? Is Souldbeast damage so low? (I don’t use arcdps)Aren’t the shared stances useful?Why is the ranger kicked from squads when even the thieves are kept (they have their uses because of their speed and stealth).

I have tried all the classes in wvw. My favorite one to play by far is power soulbeast. I don’t have a static group that I do wvw with and so I just join the commanders on the map. I must either just always join super laidback commanders or I hold my own because I haven’t ever been booted from a squad using soulbeast.

I do focus on damage and usually stick to the front until the enemy Zerg gets to close and then I stick to the back or sides. If I see that there is an enemy group smaller than my party group nearest me I will go in with greatsword to burst people down.

Sometimes I die sometimes I don’t. It probably isn’t the best build or play style, but it is super fun. I’ve downed multiple people at once with piercing rapid fire, or maul, or wordly impact. I definitely kill more enemies than I die. I tend to burst down scourges, revs, and eles the most.

You can always run alongside a Zerg even if you can join them if you want. Maybe I’ve just been lucky that I haven’t been booted, but I feel like I contribute.

I think you should play what you enjoy even if it isn’t the best build. That’s why I play power soulbeast in both wvw and pvp. It’s what I enjoy and I feel like I hold my own on it. Not that I wouldn’t mind soulbeast buffs ;)

[Justine.6351]

Glass Stance-Share Longbow is pretty wild. I've considered switching to it from hammer rev.