A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.

[powerbits.6235]

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon.

[Ashen.2907]

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon...

Luckily using an approved DPS meter is not cheating.

There is a plethora of sites listing meta-builds. These sites predate DPS meters in this game and have been used by players uninterested in developing their own builds, or those just looking to see what others might have come up with, for years.

This is a ubiquitous phenomenon, community build sites, present in every MMO.

[Ayakaru.6583]

Dps meters are toolsHammers are toolsIf you ban dps meters because a few people abuse them, then you mustn’t be hypocritical, and remove all tools from your ingame and real life environment.There’ll always be abusive people, and they’ll look for ways to be abusive when you remove the dps meters, because they were abusive before we got them.

For example, in the past it was 4 berserkers with 8k AP. Any deviation was instantly kicked. There needs to be a form of measurement of how well you’re performing, otherwise people will be carrying, or getting carried, through content.

[powerbits.6235]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon...

Luckily using an approved DPS meter is not cheating.

There is a plethora of sites listing meta-builds. These sites predate DPS meters in this game and have been used by players uninterested in developing their own builds, or those just looking to see what others might have come up with, for years.

This is a ubiquitous phenomenon, community build sites, present in every MMO.

DPS meters such as ARCdps show everything, every damage, heal, everything. that is an unfair advantage against others who are not only competing with ability, but with intelligence that it takes to create a viable build. Might as well just be able to look at other accounts toons, that would be the next step in efficiency.

But anet says ok, its ok. I wont be using it.

[Voltekka.2375]

What people say in here is that if you dont pull your own weight, you get carried. Noone likes to carry others. Noone has to carry others, if they dont want to. Thats all the dps meter does.

[Cynn.1659]

Here is what i noticed over the years of using "cheat meters" the most toxic person is usually the one doing least dmg.

[KaddiMeh.6834]

I see how you might feel that way. But honestly, DPS Meters in Raids should not be a problem if you practise your Rotation. And remember that in fractals you can simply start a new group with an added "chill" or "no dps meter", or whatever. DPS Meters help a lot of us improve, especially Chronomancers and Druids, and just because you feel it's unfair is no reason to take them away from others.If you aren't willing to improve, try new things (à la DPS meters - seriously, you'll notice how useful it is) and get better at the game, then you shouldn't be playing the "high" endgame content. (Speakin' T4s and Raids)Jus' my opinion

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Dps meter should be intergrated for raiding for in raids all got to pull their wieght if one dont metas in raids are often made ti work with other metas but if the meter causes bullying then its a tool this game would be good without

[crepuscular.9047]

it's not raid dps meter is the problem, it's the people you are raiding with is the problem, you need to find a guild looking to grow their raid scene.

I dont mind others putting up the dps results, it shows me the skill gap with others who are running the same build, which then i can ask on tips to improve my gameplay.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[Ashen.2907]

My only real interest in a DPS meter is the ability to see my own numbers in a real fight. I am more interested in monitoring my own capabilities, giving me insight into incremental improvement over time, than I am in judging others.

I do not, or at least have not as of yet, PUG fractals, and I do not raid, so DPS meter capabilities to spy on my guildies are of no use to me.

[Devildoc.6721]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Devildoc.6721" said:IMO no content in game should require third party addons as anet starts doing these bans based on tools they think hack the game might as well put down a clear across the board no addons allowed stance to clear up any confusion as to what is and isn't allowed. If dps meters are so crucial, anet should put them as part of the default UI.

It's obviously not required. However, I support the idea of a built-in damage meter. The only problem is that we have a more or less "approved" DPS meter in arcdps. Why reinvent the wheel?

When it's third party that stance can always change, if you have problems with the game the first thing anet will tell you to do is disable 3rd party stuff, and people are claiming they were banned from some auto ban wave recently for using just arcdps.. so.. better to have official and never have to question whether it's allowed or not, and its functionality will always then be supported

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Devildoc.6721 said:and people are claiming they were banned from some auto ban wave recently for using just arcdps..

FYI, ANet released a list of software which resulted in suspensions and Arc was not on it. Turns out some of the people posting in the large thread who had earlier claimed to be using only Arc or Taco later admitted they were also running one of the programs ANet did not want them to be. To be fair, the ones who've admitted it also claim they were not using that one program to hack GW2, just that they had left it running minimized to make it easier to get back into what they were doing with it after their GW2 play session -- or even to go back and forth while waiting for something in GW2 (like a world boss, maybe).

Assuming the information we have on the suspensions is correct, the people you refer to are mistaken.

[Henry.5713]

Druids are required to heal and support, chronomancers are required to support heavily and a DPS is just required to, big surprise, deal damage.People quite often do not even manage to take care of their one job. Replacing them is common sense. Why should anyone have the luxury to be allowed to slack while everyone else is needed to perform to an even higher degree than usual thanks to this one person? DPS meter finally made the lack of damage obvious - as obvious a druid's lack of healing or a chronomancer's lack of boons have always been. Nothing more and nothing less.

Don't know about you, but I certainly prefer to be kicked due to an accurate depiction of my performance rather than randomly pointed fingers by the commanders or anyone else in the squad. Not sure why anyone would want to go back to playing that old "blame game".Cynn makes a good point. Still remember the huge hissy-fit an elementalist threw before the meters back when a former static of mine continued to struggled to reach the damage numbers required for weeks. This person eventually consented to do DPS golem tests with everyone, something he denied to be in the need of for quite a while, and actually turned out to be our weakest link. He left the static after he was asked to practice. The group had grown too toxic and elitist for him...

[MarshallLaw.9260]

The issues discussed seem to stem from a community mindset.I don't personally run a DPS meter but also don't mind if other do as long as they don't suddenly start getting piissy about DPS from a support class or during a casual run.The problem is that some (not all) players using DPS meters don't say anything about it until about halfway through some boss or fractal run at which point they start pointing fingers. Make it clear in LFG when you make a group and ensure you know what group you are joining if you always aim to have these demands.I'm not against people playing as they want, but I will not tolerate players being unreasonably aggressive when it's their own fault for joining a casual run or miss-communicating their expectations.

It's important to remember that many people use an overlay for their own personal enjoyment and don't bother others, so it's probably too far to ban meters altogether.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon.

I'm certainly not cheating by using arcdps and it's rather rude of you to suggest otherwise. Per ANet, it only organizes already available combat data in a more useful format and is not against the rules.

Your theory regarding "bandwagoning" is demonstrably flawed. Raid benchmarks could still be performed using the SFTA, which is something ANet developed for this purpose. Thus meta builds (i.e. "the bandwagon") would still exist (and would exist even without the SFTA - there will always be a Most Effective Tactic Available and players will always pursue it). Further, I can show you evidence of non-meta builds being developed in collaboration with other players with the aid of arcdps. This runs counter to your argument. See the following thread:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30394/open-world-domination-mirage/p1

[AliamRationem.5172]

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon. Frustration causes dissention and less fun for others. DPS meters such as ARCdps show everything, every damage, heal, everything. that is an unfair advantage against others who are not only competing with ability, but with intelligence that it takes to create a viable build.

Just as "brilliant" as I thought it would be!! Let's examine this argument...

1) DPS meters show which builds are effective at doing damage and which builds are not.2) This causes many players to favor builds which are effective at doing damage.3) But other players refuse to adapt to this information.4) And they become frustrated that groups don't value their personal expression as much as smoother/quicker/easier runs.5) So, they come to the board and cry... but keep on playing the game.

---

Therefore: DPS meters cost ANET money

YES!!! Now I see it. Please teach me more Sensei!

Let me examine your argument.

You come here to ask my take.You say that people who use forums are crying.You defend elitism clearly.

Its fine, Anet stated that they are allowed at one time, but that does not mean there is no argument against it. Even from those who want to "examine" an argument in order to derail through embarrassment and confusion. This about right? The kid has a right to be here as do I. I would teach more, however I believe your little cup is too full already.

There are arguments against it. However, yours don't hold water.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Devildoc.6721 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Devildoc.6721 said:IMO no content in game should require third party addons as anet starts doing these bans based on tools they think hack the game might as well put down a clear across the board no addons allowed stance to clear up any confusion as to what is and isn't allowed. If dps meters are so crucial, anet should put them as part of the default UI.

It's obviously not required. However, I support the idea of a built-in damage meter. The only problem is that we have a more or less "approved" DPS meter in arcdps. Why reinvent the wheel?

When it's third party that stance can always change, if you have problems with the game the first thing anet will tell you to do is disable 3rd party stuff, and people are claiming they were banned from some auto ban wave recently for using just arcdps.. so.. better to have official and never have to question whether it's allowed or not, and its functionality will always then be supported

I agree. However, Gaile followed up and listed the software that caused players to be targeted in the recent banwave and further indicated that any software not on the list was merely coincidental. Arcdps was not on the list. She did this following the uproar from players who were concerned that they were no longer in compliance with the rules by using arcdps and taco.

[Vova.2640]

tbh dps meters should be private and display info ONLY about your character.I dont understand why this is even a debate.

[Fallesafe.5932]

@Vova.2640 said:tbh dps meters should be private and display info ONLY about your character.I dont understand why this is even a debate.

Because, without the context that the group provides, DPS numbers are absolutely meaningless.

Example 1: We're wiping to Subject Six over and over. My DPS is fine, but everyone else is topping out at 2400. Ok, Buh bye. GOOD LUCK guys!

Example 2: My DPS is less than it should be, and so is everyone else's. Hmm... is this Chrono/Druid doing his job? Lets take a look. Nope! He actually isn't buffing at all.

The DPS meter is a group diagnostic tool. Depending on buffs, your personal DPS can swing as far as +/- 50%. A private DPS value (with no group context) is utterly meaningless.

[powerbits.6235]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon. Frustration causes dissention and less fun for others. DPS meters such as ARCdps show everything, every damage, heal, everything. that is an unfair advantage against others who are not only competing with ability, but with intelligence that it takes to create a viable build.

Just as "brilliant" as I thought it would be!! Let's examine this argument...

1) DPS meters show which builds are effective at doing damage and which builds are not.2) This causes many players to favor builds which are effective at doing damage.3) But other players refuse to adapt to this information.4) And they become frustrated that groups don't value their personal expression as much as smoother/quicker/easier runs.5) So, they come to the board and cry... but keep on playing the game.

---

Therefore: DPS meters cost ANET money

YES!!! Now I see it. Please teach me more Sensei!

Let me examine your argument.

You come here to ask my take.You say that people who use forums are crying.You defend elitism clearly.

Its fine, Anet stated that they are allowed at one time, but that does not mean there is no argument against it. Even from those who want to "examine" an argument in order to derail through embarrassment and confusion. This about right? The kid has a right to be here as do I. I would teach more, however I believe your little cup is too full already.

There are arguments against it. However, yours don't hold water

Nice sentence. No substance and incorrect, fitting for your level of example.

What does it help? What do dps meters do other than give a small portion of players an advanced view on how to break already broken toons further in competitions like pvp and wvw? If there is no advantage, then why use it? What does the user get out of gaining intel on another build? I believe the argument here is that it's a game, and who cares? It is already as good as it will ever get, except there is no button to see someone elses build, that is what a dps meter is. It shows every thing, every detail of attack and defense of every player in a team. I don't team with a lot of players, groups that are "elite" fight guilds, they do not need to advance further, they can already climb all the way down into the lower ranks for the easy fights. In wvw they can already smash servers at a 3:1kdr, and they have tools that get them there fast. Dps meters, in my belief, are one of the components that allow people who are prone to cheating a leg up in all forms of competition. It is not skill to use a program to see what another is doing and mimic it, but cheating at this level is allowed. So you can state it does not hold water. Except it does.

[Menadena.7482]

@"lokh.2695" said:1) Elitism was a thing before DPS meters. Ppl just took more arbitrary things as a measure for excellence. There were no KPs then either so elitism went for "20k AP" or "ping gear or kick".

My fave is requiring x number of APs. So someone who only logged in and did dailies for a few years is fine ..... but someone who did major battles and is not an AP chaser is not.

Yes, toxic people are toxic. So why should they have one more thing to be toxic about? If you are curious about your damage either look at the combat window or go attack a training golem.

[powerbits.6235]

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:The issues discussed seem to stem from a community mindset.I don't personally run a DPS meter but also don't mind if other do as long as they don't suddenly start getting piissy about DPS from a support class or during a casual run.The problem is that some (not all) players using DPS meters don't say anything about it until about halfway through some boss or fractal run at which point they start pointing fingers. Make it clear in LFG when you make a group and ensure you know what group you are joining if you always aim to have these demands.I'm not against people playing as they want, but I will not tolerate players being unreasonably aggressive when it's their own fault for joining a casual run or miss-communicating their expectations.

It's important to remember that many people use an overlay for their own personal enjoyment and don't bother others, so it's probably too far to ban meters altogether.

So you are stating that DPS meters promote player toxicity in fractals? I do not play fractals, so this is kind of interesting.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@"MarshallLaw.9260" said:The issues discussed seem to stem from a

community mindset

.I don't personally run a DPS meter but also don't mind if other do

as long as

they don't suddenly start getting piissy about DPS from a support class or during a casual run.The problem is that some (not all) players using DPS meters don't say anything about it until about halfway through some boss or fractal run at which point they start pointing fingers. Make it clear in LFG when you make a group and ensure you know what group you are joining if you always aim to have these demands.I'm not against people playing as they want, but I will not tolerate players being unreasonably aggressive when it's their own fault for joining a casual run or miss-communicating their expectations.

It's important to remember that many people use an overlay for their own personal enjoyment and don't bother others, so it's probably too far to ban meters altogether.

So you are stating that DPS meters promote player toxicity in fractals? I do not play fractals, so this is kind of interesting.

I am stating that, from my experience, that when some players choose to use DPS meter statistics to monitor other players activity and complain about/to said player that they are not fulfilling the requirements set in a situation where this was not stipulated before - this can be considered toxic.

To put into context; I don't raid, but I do run fractals regularly. I have multiple characters with gear and builds suitable for fractals. Some are META builds, some are viable builds (like heal tempest) which are not considered META. On some days I choose to play a META build character and many will agree that META DPS builds tend to be high risk/reward so you need more concentration, a good team comp and experienced/competent party members to ensure things don't fall apart. If I chose to run this way I can put out more DPS and complete the content quicker. I can therefore comfortably join a group looking for a quick/experienced run. In this circumstance I can probably expect someone to run a DPS meter although really it doesn't matter because I would try to put out the maximum I can anyway.If however, I choose to run with a more casual group or form my own casual party which is often a few mins slower on each run, I would not tolerate if a member decides to berate either me or other teammates about under-performing. You can clearly see via the animations if somebody is contributing or not, in those circumstances, I don't expect people to be smashing out 50k DPS, as it's listed as a casual run.

Players simply need to recognize where meter use is appropriate and where it crosses the line into being unacceptable to insist on adjusting how another person is playing. Communicate if you have expectations beyond "good" or "average", otherwise stick to monitoring yourself, not others.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Menadena.7482 said:Yes, toxic people are toxic. So why should they have one more thing to be toxic about?

However dps meters help to -remove- the toxicity from the other completely meaningless items that players invented over the years, for example AP.When you are blocked from a group for not having enough AP you don't even have a chance to prove what you are capable of, you are just barred from joining.On the other hand, a dps meters never prevent anyone from joining a group and they allow everyone to show their actual worth and not be judged by some worthless metric. Without dps meters you have toxicity for entry, with dps meters you have toxicity after entry.

I don't think the second one is worse, at least you have a chance. With the first one you have zero chance.

[Talindra.4958]

I am not against the use of dps meter. but i cannot tolerate people that use dps meter to pick on others. he can say it nicely to help the others to improve but not criticizing them to make them feel bad. because that is bully.i disagree that anet should remove dps meter, because it is a very very good tools to help individual to improve their character and performance in battle.it isn't the tool that is the problem. it is the player's attitude. remove the tool, the toxic person is still there.