A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon. Frustration causes dissention and less fun for others. DPS meters such as ARCdps show everything, every damage, heal, everything. that is an unfair advantage against others who are not only competing with ability, but with intelligence that it takes to create a viable build.

Just as "brilliant" as I thought it would be!! Let's examine this argument...

1) DPS meters show which builds are effective at doing damage and which builds are not.2) This causes many players to favor builds which are effective at doing damage.3) But other players refuse to adapt to this information.4) And they become frustrated that groups don't value their personal expression as much as smoother/quicker/easier runs.5) So, they come to the board and cry... but keep on playing the game.

---

Therefore: DPS meters cost ANET money

YES!!! Now I see it. Please teach me more Sensei!

Let me examine your argument.

You come here to ask my take.You say that people who use forums are crying.You defend elitism clearly.

Its fine, Anet stated that they are allowed at one time, but that does not mean there is no argument against it. Even from those who want to "examine" an argument in order to derail through embarrassment and confusion. This about right? The kid has a right to be here as do I. I would teach more, however I believe your little cup is too full already.

There are arguments against it. However, yours don't hold water

Nice sentence. No substance and incorrect, fitting for your level of example.

What does it help? What do dps meters do other than give a small portion of players an advanced view on how to break already broken toons further in competitions like pvp and wvw? If there is no advantage, then why use it? What does the user get out of gaining intel on another build? I believe the argument here is that it's a game, and who cares? It is already as good as it will ever get, except there is no button to see someone elses build, that is what a dps meter is. It shows every thing, every detail of attack and defense of every player in a team. I don't team with a lot of players, groups that are "elite" fight guilds, they do not need to advance further, they can already climb all the way down into the lower ranks for the easy fights. In wvw they can already smash servers at a 3:1kdr, and they have tools that get them there fast. Dps meters, in my belief, are one of the components that allow people who are prone to cheating a leg up in all forms of competition. It is not skill to use a program to see what another is doing and mimic it, but cheating at this level is allowed. So you can state it does not hold water. Except it does.

Dps meters are not usable in PvP as far as I know. Also, dps is a useless metric in PvP. See my other response to you for a detailed example of why you are wrong.

[Ashen.2907]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please

DO

elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon. Frustration causes dissention and less fun for others. DPS meters such as ARCdps show everything, every damage, heal, everything. that is an unfair advantage against others who are not only competing with ability, but with intelligence that it takes to create a viable build.

Just as "brilliant" as I thought it would be!! Let's examine this argument...

1) DPS meters show which builds are effective at doing damage and which builds are not.2) This causes many players to favor builds which are effective at doing damage.3) But other players refuse to adapt to this information.4) And they become frustrated that groups don't value their personal expression as much as smoother/quicker/easier runs.5) So, they come to the board and cry... but keep on playing the game.

---

Therefore: DPS meters cost ANET money

YES!!! Now I see it. Please teach me more Sensei!

Let me examine your argument.

You come here to ask my take.You say that people who use forums are crying.You defend elitism clearly.

Its fine, Anet stated that they are allowed at one time, but that does not mean there is no argument against it. Even from those who want to "examine" an argument in order to derail through embarrassment and confusion. This about right? The kid has a right to be here as do I. I would teach more, however I believe your little cup is too full already.

There are arguments against it. However, yours don't hold water

Nice sentence. No substance and incorrect, fitting for your level of example.

What does it help? What do dps meters do other than give a small portion of players an advanced view on how to break already broken toons further in competitions like pvp and wvw? If there is no advantage, then why use it? What does the user get out of gaining intel on another build? I believe the argument here is that it's a game, and who cares? It is already as good as it will ever get, except there is no button to see someone elses build, that is what a dps meter is. It shows every thing, every detail of attack and defense of every player in a team. I don't team with a lot of players, groups that are "elite" fight guilds, they do not need to advance further, they can already climb all the way down into the lower ranks for the easy fights. In wvw they can already smash servers at a 3:1kdr, and they have tools that get them there fast. Dps meters, in my belief, are one of the components that allow people who are prone to cheating a leg up in all forms of competition. It is not skill to use a program to see what another is doing and mimic it, but cheating at this level is allowed. So you can state it does not hold water. Except it does.

Dps meters are not usable in PvP as far as I know. Also, dps is a useless metric in PvP. See my other response to you for a detailed example of why you are wrong.

God, I would love if my opponents in competitive play focused on DPS for their builds.

[cat.8975]

It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

[Timelord.8190]

Why are you complaining about a DPS meeter? Seems to me like the problem for you is the people you play with. So maybe find some people who are not elitists. It should be easy to find in this thread.

If Anet make elitist raids, they should also have elitist tools. If people can't carry their weight the ppl who do carry their weight deserves to know.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Dps and knowledge should gate ppl from content dont mattet if a person want to play bearbow let them

[SkyShroud.2865]

There were such discussion before, maybe you should try searching it up. It had tons of comments.

[Fumigene.5076]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:Dps meters are not usable in PvP as far as I know. Also, dps is a useless metric in PvP.

Thanks, I was going to ask whether it was allowed there or not. But it's not about DPS, it's more about full access to all real-time combat data, which could lead to other functionalities, like enemy build detection or audio alerts when enemy skills cooldowns are ready. Not something you want to see in sPvP.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

While useful to some, I've found it creates elitism in others. Whether such programs should be banned, I could not say . . . but I wouldn't complain if they were.

[Fallesafe.5932]

@"cat.8975" said:It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

Totally agreed.

[Menadena.7482]

@"cat.8975" said:It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

Ask for an example of toxic behaviour and people complain about 'not pulling their own weight'. I am guessing they have never heard of support classes.

I am not sure about anyone else but I certainly would not want the party member who is going to run a healer build have to focus on DPS!

[Ashen.2907]

@Menadena.7482 said:

@"cat.8975" said:It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

Ask for an example of toxic behaviour and people complain about 'not pulling their own weight'. I am guessing they have never heard of support classes.

I am not sure about anyone else but I certainly would not want the party member who is going to run a healer build have to focus on DPS!

A healer, who is actually keeping teammates up, in a group that wants a healer, is pulling his own weight.

A DPS character who does DPS comparable to a support character might not be pulling his own weight.

[infrequentia.3465]

@Menadena.7482 said:

@"cat.8975" said:It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

Ask for an example of toxic behaviour and people complain about 'not pulling their own weight'. I am guessing they have never heard of support classes.

I am not sure about anyone else but I certainly would not want the party member who is going to run a healer build have to focus on DPS!

if you where a healer you would have pulled your own weight, a dps player not doing dps or average/good dps is not pulling his weight and should just learn his class

playing a ''support'' build when theres already a healer and chrono is not pulling your own weight and just dragging the group down

[Despond.2174]

While I believe this happened to you, I cannot recall one time I have seen this happen. I have had some people comment on a groups low DPS and leave, but never the whole group kicking someone - unless they are a part of one guild. People getting kicked out of fractals because of their DPS is quite a marginal event. I can say this confidently not only with my experience but with my friends and guild that this is definitely exaggerating an environment, and I pug 95% of my T4s.

It's a balance between being civil but also having people not slow a group down. There only needs to be 1-2 players really on the ball for T4s to go smooth. I personally don't use any add ons, but I do understand why people like to see their own performance and others. My suggestion to you is, if a group is hassling you over it then leave and join another. I highly doubt this is something occurring a lot, and if it is then maybe you should just double check on a golem to make sure somethings not really off.

Now and then if I am playing a new build I will just quickly hop on a golem and just double check I am doing things at least half ok. You'll be amazed what just a few changes can do to your performance. Also double checking your talents, sigils etc. I am always glossing over my character sheet to make sure I didn't take something off by accident etc.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Combat Meters are fine the way they are, acting like there was never any elitism before is a laughable farce, elitism was just as high if not worse before Combat Meters especially since they were all based on arbitrary unrelated Things Like AP or full Zerker etc. at least now this shows accurately and shows relevant and useful objective information to base highly objective decisions on

[Cynder.2509]

They kicked a Soulbeast, you say? Well, I see the fault here because it's obvious.Rangers are useless except for Healing Druid but even others can doo far better healing than stupid rangers ^^

/sarcasm off

[Alex Shatter.7956]

DPS meters have made the DPS role a meritocracy instead of an inheritance. It allows Scourges and Soulbeasts to earn their way into a DPS role instead of just arbitrarily taking Elementalists because of their birth rights. It's great for class balance and needs to stay.

Fractal elitism has gotten worse but that's not a DPS meter problem, it's an economy problem. Fractals are now the only legitimate way to make money (outside of speculating, content running and gambling) since all mats and ectos are worthless, so there's a huge press for speed after reset

[cat.8975]

@Menadena.7482 said:

@"cat.8975" said:It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

Ask for an example of toxic behaviour and people complain about 'not pulling their own weight'. I am guessing they have never heard of support classes.

I am not sure about anyone else but I certainly would not want the party member who is going to run a healer build have to focus on DPS!

This is another case where DPS meters can be very helpful! When your group is dying, you can figure out if it's due to a healer slacking off or the other players just eating damage that they shouldn't be. We can look at boon uptimes and determine if the mesmer is placing their wells properly. We can look at skill rotations and see if people used CC skills at the right moments. DPS meters (and logging fights with them) are incredibly useful for working out where things went right and where things went wrong.

[Mrs Lana.2506]

If you think that elitism in fractals is because of the attitude from raids leaking over then you're extremely mistaken. It's been this way for a long while.

[TarkaTarquol.4856]

@cat.8975 said:

@Menadena.7482 said:

@cat.8975 said:It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

Ask for an example of toxic behaviour and people complain about 'not pulling their own weight'. I am guessing they have never heard of support classes.

I am not sure about anyone else but I certainly would not want the party member who is going to run a healer build have to focus on DPS!

This is another case where DPS meters can be very helpful! When your group is dying, you can figure out if it's due to a healer slacking off or the other players just eating damage that they shouldn't be. We can look at boon uptimes and determine if the mesmer is placing their wells properly. We can look at skill rotations and see if people used CC skills at the right moments. DPS meters (and logging fights with them) are incredibly useful for working out where things went right and where things went wrong.

While true, one has to see the potential for abuse here. Not everyone is of kind heart to help those struggling along, especially if the run was listed as an "Experienced" group. Some may see those as room for allotting improvements; others see justification to remove the weak link, leading to the "toxic" outlook so many have. The only time I get my hackles in a bunch regarding DPS is when I am pressed for time. I'm more than willing to help others, but I do so when I have the time. If I wish to have something done before I have to leave, I will opt for the faster option of pruning instead of nurturing -- or if neither can apply, I'll simply just have to leave.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

DPS meters are fine as an idea, however GW2 implementation of this tool is definitely lackluster.

1. DPS meter (together with build templates) should be both built in the game itself. Well, they are but in a very limited way - as DPS golem and PvP premade builds. We can assume that since game remembers our builds between PvE/PvP/WvW and we can already see our DPS in both PvP and when fighting DPS golem, the framework is there. All we need is devs to actually want to make this feature working without the need of using 3rd parties. Why? For obvious reasons, like account security and lack of Anet support and responsibility for ArcDPS eventually faulty behaviour.

2. DPS meter should be limited to raids and maybe T4 fractals. If WvW players feel the need for this tool, I see no reason why to deny it them aswell.

3. DPS meter should be limited to personal DPS by default with an opt-in option to share it within party/squad. This way maybe people in this game finally learn how to properly voice their expectations via LFG descriptions or when talking to each other. For the other side of the coin, some players who expect to be carried will be encouraged to use this tool and learn their profession because commanders will be able to kick them before fight starts (as a result of refusing to share DPS numbers) which will save time and frustration for everyone.

[VanWilder.6923]

Allow to use but Do not allow to DPS Meter Other players

[Henry.5713]

@Menadena.7482 said:

@"cat.8975" said:It's amusing when people whine about a "toxic community" after getting kicked from groups for not pulling their own weight. The only "toxic" player in that situation is the one who is too lazy to spend 20-30 minutes learning their class so they aren't a burden for the rest of their team. DPS meters are a simple diagnostic tool for analyzing the group's performance, and they allow us to further push the limits of each individual class to perfection.

If you want to roleplay your way through fractals, you should make your own group and advertise it as a "casual run". Don't slow down the people that are just there to quickly grab the dailies. Same thing goes for raiding. If you don't feel like putting in the minimal effort to learn your class/build, join the "training" runs instead of the experienced ones.

Ask for an example of toxic behaviour and people complain about 'not pulling their own weight'. I am guessing they have never heard of support classes.

I am not sure about anyone else but I certainly would not want the party member who is going to run a healer build have to focus on DPS!

The weight on a group's combined shoulders consists of more than just the required damage.Healers heal, supports support and damage dealers focus on dealing damage (won't mention hybrids or offensive supports to keep it simple).All of them are important, all of them have their "job", all of them carry their own weight and possibly more by playing well. I almost exclusively play druid in Fractals and raids myself and it has not happened to me once since DPS meters were introduced that anyone complained about my low damage numbers compared to a full DPS.My numbers are appropriate for what I play. So are my boons and so is my healing and thus people are quite happy with it.

Don't know why openly showing personal damage is bothering people so much. The lack of healing or boon uptime has always been rather obvious in comparison.Nobody ever held back on complaining there. But DPS were simply able to blame the other two damage dealers in the party for any failures in terms of damage. Neither the druids nor the chronomancers had the luxury to blame others as far as boons or healing was concerned. I also quite enjoy combat logs for this very reason as the low damage might possibly be caused by an underperforming support due to the lack of might, etc but that is a different matter.People need to up take responsibility for their own performance now. Some can't deal with said fact, others use these tools to improve their own play and possibly inspire others to do the same. All there is to it, really.

[Menadena.7482]

@Cynder.2509 said:They kicked a Soulbeast, you say? Well, I see the fault here because it's obvious.Rangers are useless except for Healing Druid but even others can doo far better healing than stupid rangers ^^

/sarcasm off

My rangers and druids (note the plural tense) would disagree about not being effective. It is all about knowing your class.

[ReaverKane.7598]

IMO people that don't accept criticism (as long as its constructive and polite) and expect others to carry their "flavour builds" are as toxic as the hiper-elitists who will complain if you deviate 1% from the ideal DPS (which from my experience are few and far between).Most people do expect PUG players to at least be decent.My personal standard for decent is doing around 10k average DPS (most DPS classes can go up to 30k, so 10k isn't that much) if you're a DPSer, and even then, i'll carry you along if you're doing less than that as long as you're not keeling over every fight.But if the group is being held back significantly i will definitely tell you how you're holding the group back. If you don't listen, i'll push for a kick. I won't fuss about it too much, i'm there to enjoy the game, as should everyone else be. And i believe than when an individual is impeding the enjoyment of 4 others, his "right" to enjoy the game loses precedence.I hate being a nuisance to others, so i'll always try to go at my best for PUG groups, and i expect others to have at least the basic decency to try and do the same.

DPS meters are an awesome tool that allow not only to improve yourself, but to an extent, to root out those toxic few that would rather impinge on other people's enjoyment than put an effort to improve.That's not to say that if someone comes to a fractal group and tells me right off the bat "hey, i'm new, what should i be doing?" i'll be the first to take time off to explain and help out. It wouldn't be the first time that i go out and group with guys at T1 to show them and teach them about Fractals after they asked on World chat about it.But if you're PUGing for T4, and you're just expecting people to carry you, you're just being toxic.

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that anyone in this discussion is or has been leeching in groups, i'm talking in general terms, out of personal experience.)

[Bloodstealer.5978]

DPS Meters on there own are not the issue here persey.. imo.. it's about the individual.Not everyone uses the tools to grief, but we all know many of them do. Question is if they took the meter out would the issue dissipate - I think not because the same individuals that want to grief will grief because they think they are the epitome of dps, the game, interweebs.. looking at numbers on a screen wont change that neither will taking those numbers away.DPS meters just made it easier and perhaps more widespread.But lets be honest here a player can have the biggest baddest, top notch dps in the group, the game, the entire planet when tickling a golem that doesn't fight back, but if they don't know how to use their metabattle build copy, doesn't know or understand the dungeon, frac or raid mechanics, doesn't know what support skills to bring.. then that players DPS counts for nothing when they spend half the content dead... but then the only way they will likely improve is to keep playing the build and the content.. but when they keep getting kicked, griefed or in some cases verbally abused to the point they just uninstall then how does that meter help encourage players to engage in such content..

DPS meters are useful if used properly, from an individual perspective, and that imo is where ANET has failed to act responsibly. If a group wants metered gameplay then the individuals should be required to consent to it and by that have the meter installed and a share data option ticked otherwise its for personal use only. It wont as I have said cure the issue overnight but it will likely help to reduce the greifing that is ever present these days.