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A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.


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@"ReaverKane.7598" said:IMO people that don't accept criticism (as long as its constructive and polite) and expect others to carry their "flavour builds" are as toxic as the hiper-elitists who will complain if you deviate 1% from the ideal DPS (which from my experience are few and far between).Most people do expect PUG players to at least be decent.My personal standard for decent is doing around 10k average DPS (most DPS classes can go up to 30k, so 10k isn't that much) if you're a DPSer, and even then, i'll carry you along if you're doing less than that as long as you're not keeling over every fight.But if the group is being held back significantly i will definitely tell you how you're holding the group back. If you don't listen, i'll push for a kick. I won't fuss about it too much, i'm there to enjoy the game, as should everyone else be. And i believe than when an individual is impeding the enjoyment of 4 others, his "right" to enjoy the game loses precedence.I hate being a nuisance to others, so i'll always try to go at my best for PUG groups, and i expect others to have at least the basic decency to try and do the same.

DPS meters are an awesome tool that allow not only to improve yourself, but to an extent, to root out those toxic few that would rather impinge on other people's enjoyment than put an effort to improve.That's not to say that if someone comes to a fractal group and tells me right off the bat "hey, i'm new, what should i be doing?" i'll be the first to take time off to explain and help out. It wouldn't be the first time that i go out and group with guys at T1 to show them and teach them about Fractals after they asked on World chat about it.But if you're PUGing for T4, and you're just expecting people to carry you, you're just being toxic.

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that anyone in this discussion is or has been leeching in groups, i'm talking in general terms, out of personal experience.)

I never thought I'd agree, but recent discussions have enlightened me to what I would call "casual elitism". Basically, the idea that if you care about such things as damage output, build coherence, and group performance you are automatically a "toxic" player and deserve whatever abuse comes your way - including carrying me through fractal runs and don't you dare even mention the fact that I could be doing anything differently!

It's just another way of saying that players of any stripe can be toxic. DPS meters are a convenient excuse, but if anything I am seeing more toxicity from players who are hyper-sensitive to damage meters than from players who use these tools. It's pretty sad, honestly. I think the vast majority of players can handle being polite to each other. Some people just can't handle cooperative gaming at all.

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@Last Crysis.1934 said:Please make all dps meters a bankable offense. They not only made the raid community sour but are finding there way into fractals. I was in a party last night and some of the group wanted to kick the soulbeast because he was not doing alot of damage during the fractal. I am tired of seeing raid elitism entering fractals. The dps of one person should not matter as long as they know the mechanics.

I don't know much about bankable offences - where would one bank these - but I can tell you for a fact elitism won't disappear even if ANet forbade the usage of dps meters. You're not understanding the issue. Elitism isn't an issue, it's a reaction. The underlying issue is unrealistic expectations. There are players who simply don't bother to learn playing the game efficiently. That's perfectly fine, since it is their own choice. But only until the moment their performance begins to affect the choices of other players.

The situation you describe seems exactly that - someone was being carried because they were playing much below the capabilities of their role. Expecting this to be accepted in the high-end content of the game is unrealistic. Underperforming is pretty obvious, I don't need a dps meter to see someone doesn't have a clue about what they're doing. And I will react, I can assure you. I'll either leave myself or, if playing with players I know, will kick the offender. Nothing and nobody can oblige me to play with someone I don't want. So there - hypothetical situation without dps meters and still having elitism. Like I said, you're not understanding the issue and you're proposing changes that do nothing to mitigate it.

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Most ppl do not seem to remember the kicks on CoF cause the run took 20 seconds more than they would expect. Or the zerk meta. I am not sure why people think this is new.

Also i do not think people remember the insanely arbitrary kicks from raids and fractals before DPS meters. People have kicked me from a fractal run in 2015, during the toughness scaling nightmare (remember the initial HoT fractal implementation that 50+ just scaled toughness on bosses), cause i was using condi DPS instead of power. I know cases of people being asked to ping their gear in fractals while the were wearing legendary armor.

Removing DPS meters will not change the elitism you think you are facing. It will just make the kicks from the toxic players more arbitrary and more infuriating. It will actually be giving them more space to find random reasons to kick people when a run fails.

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Most arguments to remove Combat meters can be boiled down to people wanting to skate by and force/sneak their way into groups that are looking for specific things and have others carry them through the content, since The Toxicity was the same if not higher when Combat Meters weren’t allowed and that Toxicity wasn’t based on accurate objective data that shows each party members contribution and performance.

Because there was never a time when people were kicked from party for using Necro or Ranger, or Kicked from party for not having X amount of AP or kicked for not being pure Zerker, or kicked from not knowing A specific route to take, or kicked for perceived under performance, no those never happened ever. /s

Combat Meters are healthy for the state of the game since they provide accurate objective data of party/squad members, this helps new and interesting builds have a chance to be recognized and emerge and allows for players to see where they may need to improve to accomplish whatever task they are attempting, also it allows for more objective data to be used to accurately and allow for more widespread inclusion based on the needs of the group and individual performance.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:IMO people that don't accept criticism (as long as its constructive and polite) and expect others to carry their "flavour builds" are as toxic as the hiper-elitists who will complain if you deviate 1% from the ideal DPS (which from my experience are few and far between).Most people do expect PUG players to at least be decent.My personal standard for decent is doing around 10k average DPS (most DPS classes can go up to 30k, so 10k isn't that much) if you're a DPSer, and even then, i'll carry you along if you're doing less than that as long as you're not keeling over every fight.But if the group is being held back significantly i
will
definitely tell you how you're holding the group back. If you don't listen, i'll push for a kick. I won't fuss about it too much, i'm there to enjoy the game, as should everyone else be. And i believe than when an individual is impeding the enjoyment of 4 others, his "right" to enjoy the game loses precedence.I hate being a nuisance to others, so i'll always try to go at my best for PUG groups, and i expect others to have at least the basic decency to try and do the same.

DPS meters are an awesome tool that allow not only to improve yourself, but to an extent, to root out those toxic few that would rather impinge on other people's enjoyment than put an effort to improve.That's not to say that if someone comes to a fractal group and tells me right off the bat "hey, i'm new, what should i be doing?" i'll be the first to take time off to explain and help out. It wouldn't be the first time that i go out and group with guys at T1 to show them and teach them about Fractals after they asked on World chat about it.But if you're PUGing for T4, and you're just expecting people to carry you, you're just being toxic.

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that anyone in this discussion is or has been leeching in groups, i'm talking in general terms, out of personal experience.)

I never thought I'd agree, but recent discussions have enlightened me to what I would call "casual elitism". Basically, the idea that if you care about such things as damage output, build coherence, and group performance you are automatically a "toxic" player and deserve whatever abuse comes your way - including carrying me through fractal runs and don't you dare even mention the fact that I could be doing anything differently!

It's just another way of saying that players of any stripe can be toxic. DPS meters are a convenient excuse, but if anything I am seeing more toxicity from players who are hyper-sensitive to damage meters than from players who use these tools. It's pretty sad, honestly. I think the vast majority of players can handle being polite to each other. Some people just can't handle cooperative gaming at all.

Trust me, i deeply dislike copying builds off pages, and go off-meta a lot when it doesn't fit my play-style (i was playing condi Ranger during the Zerker meta days, changed it to assassin's a while after ascended armor was introduced, because i was fed up with thieves and warriors using up most of the bleed stacks, and then when they unlocked the number of max stacks, i already had full ascended assassins+zerker gear, so i refused to change, and to this day i still haven't made a condi build for him - will do that soon, my thief will inherit the gear, but i need more boxes ^_^).

So i can relate to people wanting to do their thing. Often people who just copy builds from meta-battle, snowcrows, or whatever and don't know what to do with it will be just as bad as someone that uses a bad build.But the thing is, doing your own thing doesn't mean everyone else should have to put up with one's horrible build, and its up to each one of us to try and do the best possible build for our play style, at least if we intend to do PUGs with random people.If you're playing with like-minded friends, go ahead, derping about with your friends might be the funniest experiences you'll have, but that's when everyone is up for that. I remember a few months ago me and my friends took something like 2 hours to do T4 fractals, because we started to rant about DPS and who was the strongest and everyone ended up doing T4 with their most glassiest cannon builds and just going for pure DPS, which of course ended up tragically in a lot of instances (like doing tear-less Old Tom without a healer) but we were bawling with laughter! Just don't do that with Pugs.

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@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:Most arguments to remove Combat meters can be boiled down to people wanting to skate by and force/sneak their way into groups that are looking for specific things and have others carry them through the content, since The Toxicity was the same if not higher when Combat Meters weren’t allowed and that Toxicity wasn’t based on accurate objective data that shows each party members contribution and performance.

Because there was never a time when people were kicked from party for using Necro or Ranger, or Kicked from party for not having X amount of AP or kicked for not being pure Zerker, or kicked from not knowing A specific route to take, or kicked for perceived under performance, no those never happened ever. /s

Combat Meters are healthy for the state of the game since they provide accurate objective data of party/squad members, this helps new and interesting builds have a chance to be recognized and emerge and allows for players to see where they may need to improve to accomplish whatever task they are attempting, also it allows for more objective data to be used to accurately and allow for more widespread inclusion based on the needs of the group and individual performance.

I beg to differ.. I have no issue with a DPS meter if used for personal scrutiny or if a group consents to it.. as for builds/classes.. they are imo the very opposite because they are often if not always used in conjunction with .. must be "X" class , "Y", must be meta lalala... they do not allow for any build to join they are destructive in that sense not constructive. The only reason "interesting" builds become allowed is when there is either a change to the skills/mechanics by ANET or someone from a guild says its the only thing that can do the job... build diversity isn't that strong in GW2 but its even less allowed when it comes to things like raid play alongside DPS meters.Personally I have never gone out of my way to promote myself as a min max top notch dps, but I do go out of my way to try my builds, learn the content I'm playing and generally have as much fun as possible, so if some dps tryhard wants to boot me cos I don't fit his/her perceived meta or I fall below some dps number cruncher then that's fine with me, I will either join another or make my own.. I prefer to play with people who want to look at the screen and enjoy the content not rush through it based on what a spreadsheet of numbers says... but hey that's me, each to their own

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So a soulbeast, who joined the group as a DPS player, did poor dps and got kicked? Whats wrong with that? Why should a fractal group have to carry a bad soulbeast?

It's a very weird position to take when you think ignorance is better than information. That same attitude fuels the anti-science, anti-education luddites that plague our society.

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Let me guess you were the soulbeast who got kicked, right? Here's the thing, Raid bosses have enrage timers where if you don't kill them before the time is up you basically wipe because their damage gets massively boosted. Some are more tolerant than others in terms of raw DPS. So, if you have a couple people doing low DPS you will not kill the boss.

For fractals, this is not the case. However, Fractals go 1000 times smoother when people actually are not a dead weight. Someone doing very low DPS can be felt without a DPS meter. It feels like you are 4-manning the fractal. Same goes for a healer not healing or a chrono not putting out boons. They might as well just not be there or be replaced by someone who actually contributes. Condi classes in general are less effective than power because of the nature of fractals. The potential for condi classes is far below that of power classes so, playing a condi class, you are already at a massive disadvantage DPS wise. The one exception is Firebrand because of the high burst that no other condi class has.

I use a DPS meter and never yell at people for having really low DPS but you can 100% tell the difference between someone pulling 5k DPS and someone pulling 15k DPS in a Fractal. Having the meter does not make people toxic. People are toxic because they are toxic. If the meter wasn't there they'd be yelling at the whole group for being bad because they probably wouldn't be able to tell who among the 5 as bad. Long story short, you shouldn't have low DPS in T4 Fractals or Raids (if you are a DPS class) or you are dragging your team down and quite possibly causing the wipe yourself by being bad or you are leeching which is just as bad.

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At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cerioth.7062 said:Sure lets remove DPS meters and go back to the time when the only class people want to take is ele :)

Profession popularity contest is based on benchmarks, not ArcDPS. Benchmarks are being made on DPS golem, so removing DPS meter technically won't change anything.

It will actually make it worse. There's already people judging you based on your character alone, but you can disprove them with DPS results. Without those it would be back to the old days where you'd get kicked from parties just for playing class X.

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:Most arguments to remove Combat meters can be boiled down to people wanting to skate by and force/sneak their way into groups that are looking for specific things and have others carry them through the content, since The Toxicity was the same if not higher when Combat Meters weren’t allowed and that Toxicity wasn’t based on accurate objective data that shows each party members contribution and performance.

Because there was never a time when people were kicked from party for using Necro or Ranger, or Kicked from party for not having X amount of AP or kicked for not being pure Zerker, or kicked from not knowing A specific route to take, or kicked for perceived under performance, no those never happened ever. /s

Combat Meters are healthy for the state of the game since they provide accurate objective data of party/squad members, this helps new and interesting builds have a chance to be recognized and emerge and allows for players to see where they may need to improve to accomplish whatever task they are attempting, also it allows for more objective data to be used to accurately and allow for more widespread inclusion based on the needs of the group and individual performance.

I beg to differ.. I have no issue with a DPS meter if used for personal scrutiny or if a group consents to it.. as for builds/classes.. they are imo the very opposite because they are often if not always used in conjunction with .. must be "X" class , "Y", must be meta lalala... they do not allow for any build to join they are destructive in that sense not constructive. The only reason "interesting" builds become allowed is when there is either a change to the skills/mechanics by ANET or someone from a guild says its the only thing that can do the job... build diversity isn't that strong in GW2 but its even less allowed when it comes to things like raid play alongside DPS meters.Personally I have never gone out of my way to promote myself as a min max top notch dps, but I do go out of my way to try my builds, learn the content I'm playing and generally have as much fun as possible, so if some dps tryhard wants to boot me cos I don't fit his/her perceived meta or I fall below some dps number cruncher then that's fine with me, I will either join another or make my own.. I prefer to play with people who want to look at the screen and enjoy the content not rush through it based on what a spreadsheet of numbers says... but hey that's me, each to their own

Like i said, that try hard does not have any responsibility to carry any casual through content, so what you do is the right thing, seek people that have a like mind.

I mean personally, for me, having done hundreds or thousands of Fractal runs for example, it kind of lost the appeal of "the content" and i do it for the reward. I'm a guy that will search every nook and cranny when doing a new story beat and will iterate through all NPC dialogs, and check every dialog before progressing forward, but after doing that a couple times, there's nothing new to enjoy and it's about the destination instead of the journey. And in those cases, i want to get to the destination as fast as possible, so i can enjoy other journeys.From experience, if you have a 5 man group and 3 of them do at least 10k DPS (again that's 20-50% of Benchmark values for most classes, excluding support roles) i'll be finishing all daily fractals including recomended ones in less than 1hour. If that's not true, or even if someone is doing good DPS but dies every 5 seconds, then usually i won't. And since i usually play near reset time, i can't afford to have people "experiment" builds on T4 Fractals.

I bear no ill will towards people wanting to do crazy builds and experiment, i applaud that and enjoy doing it as well, one of my best friends and a guy i play often with is always doing that, but when it comes to group content, he sticks to what he knows won't drag the group behind. And that should be the attitude of everyone. You're not playing alone, but with others, and need to take into consideration the impact your decisions have on other people.

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Once upon a time the DPS tryhards blamed the healers, the healers blamed the dps for not knowing his/her class then groups failed content because the support classes weren't good at supporting.. these days its cos some numbers on a dps meter don't fit the curve on their spreadsheet.I laugh most when that tryhard dps meta beefcake is the one doing the dying..I just say, awesome dps there now try it standing up

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What seems to be missing in these threads about DPS meters is what exactly are the meters measuring, and what do the numbers mean?ie what numbers = doing you bit , whatever that means, and below what numbers will you get the boot for not doing enough?ie how are players supposed to know what the readings from the dps meters mean?

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cerioth.7062 said:Sure lets remove DPS meters and go back to the time when the only class people want to take is ele :)

Profession popularity contest is based on benchmarks, not ArcDPS. Benchmarks are being made on DPS golem, so removing DPS meter technically won't change anything.

It will actually make it worse. There's already people judging you based on your character alone, but you can disprove them with DPS results. Without those it would be back to the old days where you'd get kicked from parties just for playing class X.

If you will be allowed to play in the first place. People already filter out each other based on professions and has been doing this since the beginning of this game. DPS meter - with or without - changes nothing.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

On the other hand, dps meter causes people to not play the game but dps race. Which at the end may cause a wipe or at least few deaths when a greedy weaver or DH decides to ignore mechanics or wait with dodge 1 second to long.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

On the other hand, dps meter causes people to not play the game but dps race. Which at the end may cause a wipe or at least few deaths when a greedy weaver or DH decides to ignore mechanics or wait with dodge 1 second to long.

Majority of people do not "dps race".It is one thing to do 15k dps, another to be on 5k. Noone likes to carry lazy peopleIt is one thing to be a bad player and get overly greedy, it is another to know when to dodgeDps meters making people greedy is like saying the spoon made you fat. It didnt. You WERE greedy. Always will be.Toxic elitism always existed, will always exist. Dps meters had minor impact on thatEveryone can make their own lfg in fractals, and do a chill run with like-minded people. I know I do.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ToPNoP.2493 said:dps meters are cheating and cost anet money.

The people who created and own the game say that it is not cheating.

I would be interested in seeing your data to show that it costs Anet money.

Oh, that is easy, seeing data allows you to create a build with ease, costing ANET money from the player not actually playing the game and developing a build. Drops mic...

Whaaaaaat?? hahaha

Please
DO
elaborate on this brilliant postulate...

Since you begged... I believe that dps meters also lead to bandwagoning, like hard. People can see what others are playing and want it. This behavior creates imbalances, anyone can see what is the best just by observing the dps meter. This would lose ANET money through development changes, and through frustrations of players who may be good, but are not cheating to get the next bandwagon. Frustration causes dissention and less fun for others. DPS meters such as ARCdps show everything, every damage, heal, everything. that is an unfair advantage against others who are not only competing with ability, but with intelligence that it takes to create a viable build.

Just as "brilliant" as I thought it would be!! Let's examine this argument...

1) DPS meters show which builds are effective at doing damage and which builds are not.2) This causes many players to favor builds which are effective at doing damage.3) But other players refuse to adapt to this information.4) And they become frustrated that groups don't value their personal expression as much as smoother/quicker/easier runs.5) So, they come to the board and cry... but keep on playing the game.

Therefore: DPS meters cost ANET money

YES!!! Now I see it. Please teach me more Sensei!

Let me examine your argument.

You come here to ask my take.You say that people who use forums are crying.You defend elitism clearly.

Its fine, Anet stated that they are allowed at one time, but that does not mean there is no argument against it. Even from those who want to "examine" an argument in order to derail through embarrassment and confusion. This about right? The kid has a right to be here as do I. I would teach more, however I believe your little cup is too full already.

There are arguments against it. However, yours don't hold water.

jfc, this conversation just perfectly literates how toxic these forums can be. Anyways, there were a ton of mistakes in this conversation.

1) Terrible, terrible argument that somehow this costs ANET money2) "Please DO elaborate on this brilliant postulate..." Just an incredibly cringey and toxic statement.3) " Just as "brilliant" as I thought it would be!!" Another incredibly cringey and toxic statement4) "Please teach me more Sensei!"

You guys sound like bitter old women. You seriously come off as the nerdiest and cringiest people I could possibly imagine. I don't even have a stake in this debate and I don't care but please stop talking like this for your own sake.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

On the other hand, dps meter causes people to not play the game but dps race. Which at the end may cause a wipe or at least few deaths when a greedy weaver or DH decides to ignore mechanics or wait with dodge 1 second to long.

Majority of people do not "dps race".

Majority of people do not slack intentionally aswell. Arguments about toxic elitism and casual slackers are based on extreme niches which are not true for general community.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

On the other hand, dps meter causes people to not play the game but dps race. Which at the end may cause a wipe or at least few deaths when a greedy weaver or DH decides to ignore mechanics or wait with dodge 1 second to long.

Majority of people do not "dps race".

Majority of people do not slack intentionally aswell. Arguments about toxic elitism and casual slackers are based on extreme niches which are not true for general community.

Intention is irrelevant. Slacking unintentionally is a thing, now? An excuse, for what? People somehow behave like they are entitled to be carried, like they are entitled to not get told they do bad dps because they will get offended. You do bad dps (for a dps role)? You check why. Is your gear bad? Is your knowledge of the class decent?

I do T4 daily, never used a dps meter. HAve joined all kinds of runs, meta/chill. Noone EVER told me my dps is bad. Am I a pro? Certainly not. Am I a tryhard? Far from it. Were there elitists who wanted that 30k benchmark? Extremely rarely.

Furthermore, people dislike lazy people as much as they dislike those who are pro dps but somehow end up permanently downed. Again, the vast majority asks for reasonable things. Dont get permadowned, dont just press 1-1-1-2, know the tactics on a decent level for T4. Avoid joining toxic, "meta" runs. Find people who share your mindset. Chill runs are a thing.

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