A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.

[Colly.4073]

WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

[sigur.9453]

@Colly.4073 said:WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

absolute nonsenseim a toxic elitist and i didn´t play wow in 10 years.

[SunTzu.4513]

WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

Jeah, finally someone got the point! Good old days without these guys. It was so fantastic! No group reject/kicked Rangers or Necros for dungeons. All people were so friendly to let you play a condibuild back in the good old zerker times. No classtacking or gearposting. No one wanted a ridiculous amount of ap for an invite.....

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Colly.4073" said:WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

The funny part about this is that the most toxic player in this discussion by a mile is on the "casual" side of the debate. But you wouldn't know it because the posts have been pulled.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@SunTzu.4513 said:

WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

Jeah, finally someone got the point! Good old days without these guys. It was so fantastic! No group reject/kicked Rangers or Necros for dungeons. All people were so friendly to let you play a condibuild back in the good old zerker times. No classtacking or gearposting. No one wanted a ridiculous amount of ap for an invite.....

Zerker meta was only partially caused by elitism. The bigger issue was terrible condition system design which was only changed shortly before HoT making it possible for condi builds to be viable in group content.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Colly.4073 said:WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

Nope Elitism was around long before DPS Meters, you Act as though no one was ever kicked for not playing a certain class or playing a certain class or for not having x amount of AP etc and all of those were very arbitrary while Combat Meters provide actual objective data to base decisions off of and lower toxicity since it’s relevant objective data not arbitrary irrelevant feelings based criteria.

[Belorn.2659]

Please A-Net, let bring back the ol good days where party search was "30k AP only eles!". It was so much better in the past where instead of giving players a chance and see how they perform we instead used proxies for it like class choice and achievement points. Everyone just love how KP and LNHB works in raid and fractals! Let not just continue that but improve it and push players into more proxies for skills so that people can be kicked even before they joined. If you are not per-approved than no point trying to join! It would save so much time for everyone if "different" players such as those running anything unfamiliar get kicked at the start of the fractal and raid.

The gw2 dungeon community also had this lovely practice of using solo Lupi and MAMA as a barrier for entry. Instead of DPS meters we could just have titles attached to soloing bosses. This way we don't need meters and we can safely kick anyone that hasn't the title (and make sure to ban anyone dealing with account sharing).

DPS meters are just too slow and toxic. Lets bring in toxicity from the past which just had the lowly taste of green.

[Justine.6351]

It wasn't until I added arcDPS that I figured out why my GL didn't want me to play anything other than hammer rev.

[Zedek.8932]

I do not raid. But in another game from Square Enix, I've encountered a mind-baffling dungeon run. Our Free Company (their equivalent to a guild) had mad beef going on because I used a different skill for that dungeon on a special enemy because my Blackmage was out of mana. We were

• ...easily getting through
• ...nobody died from that
• ...I had to do it because I messed up a bit with my rotation

Guess what happened. We took 18 seconds too long (and had 54 minutes left on the clock) when the tank suddenly started a pitchfork crowd because I slightly messed up. Because we took 18 seconds longer.

18 seconds!

It was literally just about that little bit of delay. Nobody was dying, nobody ragequitted. It was literally just because some guy threw a tantrum over a minor dent in their aspired performance of that run. When you grow older and you see how much bad stuff will happen to you and your life or your loved ones, and you just want to play a video game as your leisure, and meet people, unemployed maybe, that have no other sense of satisfaction than logging their video game performances like that, sorry, then ban these darn things. The sooner the better.

There is a reason overly zealous reports or logging of work performance is not allowed (at least in Germany), because of the same thing, and even my 110,000 employee company stripped literally hundred of factors of that (before we had a COBRA system in place, COntrolling By RAnking). Why? The teamwork went down to zero. Everyone wanted to fulfill the best of their departmen but others left behind - thats what actually slew down the whole branche's efforts - were neglected. Since we removed a vast majority of COBRA, I can spend time HELPING people not pulling their weight and figure out why instead of threatening them to be fired.

As said, I am not raiding mostly due to this and the difficult-to-bear atittude of today's videogamers, but this thread or the discussion in a whole shows how bad and toxic these things are, there is literally a 50/50 relation about Yay and Nay. And a community that is split like that can't work together to lay the boss.

Excelsior.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Cerioth.7062" said:Sure lets remove DPS meters and go back to the time when the only class people want to take is ele :)

Profession popularity contest is based on benchmarks, not ArcDPS. Benchmarks are being made on DPS golem, so removing DPS meter technically won't change anything.

They'll change the average performance, for the worse. There's a term we use in my guild "pug ele", and it became a meme for a reason. Ironically, this worsened performance will actually increase elitism, as it is related to the relative difficulty of the content you're doing, which in turn is affected by your performance.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Cerioth.7062 said:Sure lets remove DPS meters and go back to the time when the only class people want to take is ele :)

Profession popularity contest is based on benchmarks, not ArcDPS. Benchmarks are being made on DPS golem, so removing DPS meter technically won't change anything.

It will actually make it worse. There's already people judging you based on your character alone, but you can disprove them with DPS results. Without those it would be back to the old days where you'd get kicked from parties just for playing class X.

If you will be allowed to play in the first place. People already filter out each other based on professions and has been doing this since the beginning of this game. DPS meter - with or without - changes nothing.

From my experience (EU servers) people nowadays give a bit more a benefit of the doubt, not always. But then again, i was only kicked once based on my class (was playing Guardian on old T4 with that instability that would steal your retaliation, although i played without retal weapons and traits, now it's the main feature of my build ^_^). Also lately i've been grouping with friends usually only getting one random, so that might also skew my experience as well.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

On the other hand, dps meter causes people to not play the game but dps race. Which at the end may cause a wipe or at least few deaths when a greedy weaver or DH decides to ignore mechanics or wait with dodge 1 second to long.

True, that happens, and like i said to me those are as toxic as people who do poor builds and expect to be carried. Having a good build is not just about doing max DPS but knowing when you can do it. That's also lessened by having a good support comp, but shouldn't excuse people from knowing how to play. Its the same in all games, there's always "that guy" (usually a rogue/thief type, or a mage type) that just spams as much DPS as he can, messing up the aggro generation for the tanks, and taking more damage than healers can handle, and in the end the group wipes because that guy was playing with his eyes on the DPS meter. That's something that happens, and will always happen, but that's not an inherent problem of the DPS meter, but of people's personalities.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

On the other hand, dps meter causes people to not play the game but dps race. Which at the end may cause a wipe or at least few deaths when a greedy weaver or DH decides to ignore mechanics or wait with dodge 1 second to long.

Majority of people do not "dps race".

Majority of people do not slack intentionally aswell. Arguments about toxic elitism and casual slackers are based on extreme niches which are not true for general community.

This is also an argument

for

DPS meters. People that don't slack intentionally would improve more if they used a DPS meter themselves, instead of railing against being criticized. I thought i was doing great on my old build, i would complete fractals very fast with minimal party deaths, then i got a DPS meter, and realized i could be doing

much better

and i redesigned parts of my build, and now i can go top DPS very frequently, and still with low deaths (although i walk a finer line, since i had to forego some survivability) and much faster clears.But for each guy that ends up getting a DPS meter and improving considerably, there's one that rails against DPS meters in the forums, and doesn't care if he's doing good or bad, just that others don't complain about him doing badly or kick him from under-performing.> @Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:At the very least, a dps meter is an objective way to see if you - or any player who has a dps role- really carries their weight in various circumstances. People used to ask for high AP, back in the day. They assumed that high AP=Skill, which is really, really wrong.Also, I do not understand why it is wrong for others to see how much dmg you do. We are not talking about hitting that 33,830k mark, mind you. But decent dps should be enough, except in those rare circumstances where you meet some obnoxious elitists.Being lazy is not an excuse to remove dps meters.

On the other hand, dps meter causes people to not play the game but dps race. Which at the end may cause a wipe or at least few deaths when a greedy weaver or DH decides to ignore mechanics or wait with dodge 1 second to long.

Majority of people do not "dps race".

Majority of people do not slack intentionally aswell. Arguments about toxic elitism and casual slackers are based on extreme niches which are not true for general community.

Intention is irrelevant. Slacking unintentionally is a thing, now? An excuse, for what? People somehow behave like they are entitled to be carried, like they are entitled to not get told they do bad dps because they will get offended. You do bad dps (for a dps role)? You check why. Is your gear bad? Is your knowledge of the class decent?

I do T4 daily, never used a dps meter. HAve joined all kinds of runs, meta/chill. Noone EVER told me my dps is bad. Am I a pro? Certainly not. Am I a tryhard? Far from it. Were there elitists who wanted that 30k benchmark? Extremely rarely.

Furthermore, people dislike lazy people as much as they dislike those who are pro dps but somehow end up permanently downed. Again, the vast majority asks for reasonable things. Dont get permadowned, dont just press 1-1-1-2, know the tactics on a decent level for T4. Avoid joining toxic, "meta" runs. Find people who share your mindset. Chill runs are a thing.This!!

@SunTzu.4513 said:

WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

Jeah, finally someone got the point! Good old days without these guys. It was so fantastic! No group reject/kicked Rangers or Necros for dungeons. All people were so friendly to let you play a condibuild back in the good old zerker times. No classtacking or gearposting. No one wanted a ridiculous amount of ap for an invite.....

I've been playing literally since before the official launch (Betas and Headstart) and i don't remember this ever happeining... Oh wait that's sarcasm :expressionless: (Just pointing that out, someone might thought this ever happened)

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@SunTzu.4513 said:

WoW raiders came here in droves and brought with them Elitism, toxicity and DPS meters. We don’t want that crap here.

Jeah, finally someone got the point! Good old days without these guys. It was so fantastic! No group reject/kicked Rangers or Necros for dungeons. All people were so friendly to let you play a condibuild back in the good old zerker times. No classtacking or gearposting. No one wanted a ridiculous amount of ap for an invite.....

Zerker meta was only partially caused by elitism. The bigger issue was terrible condition system design which was only changed shortly before HoT making it possible for condi builds to be viable in group content.

Elitism is exactly that... People want only the most viable build, in that time, 4 Zerker Warrior + 1 Mesmer ( also zerker, there for Time warp pretty much) was the strongest comp with he most DPS output, and it was meta, and the comp "elitists" picked. Now you have more "top dps" choices, but the logic is the same, it's just that, thanks in part to dps meters, in other part to the DPS golem, the meta choice is based on better evidence to what's the best dps.

@"Zedek.8932" said:I do not raid. But in another game from Square Enix, I've encountered a mind-baffling dungeon run. Our Free Company (their equivalent to a guild) had mad beef going on because I used a different skill for that dungeon on a special enemy because my Blackmage was out of mana. We were

• ...easily getting through
• ...nobody died from that
• ...I had to do it because I messed up a bit with my rotation

Guess what happened. We took 18 seconds too long (and had 54 minutes left on the clock) when the tank suddenly started a pitchfork crowd because I slightly messed up. Because we took 18 seconds longer.

18 seconds!

It was literally just about that little bit of delay. Nobody was dying, nobody ragequitted. It was literally just because some guy threw a tantrum over a minor dent in their aspired performance of that run. When you grow older and you see how much bad stuff will happen to you and your life or your loved ones, and you just want to play a video game as your leisure, and meet people, unemployed maybe, that have no other sense of satisfaction than logging their video game performances like that, sorry, then ban these darn things. The sooner the better.

There is a reason overly zealous reports or logging of work performance is not allowed (at least in Germany), because of the same thing, and even my 110,000 employee company stripped literally hundred of factors of that (before we had a COBRA system in place, COntrolling By RAnking). Why? The teamwork went down to zero. Everyone wanted to fulfill the best of their departmen but others left behind - thats what actually slew down the whole branche's efforts - were neglected. Since we removed a vast majority of COBRA, I can spend time HELPING people not pulling their weight and figure out why instead of threatening them to be fired.

As said, I am not raiding mostly due to this and the difficult-to-bear atittude of today's videogamers, but this thread or the discussion in a whole shows how bad and toxic these things are, there is literally a 50/50 relation about Yay and Nay. And a community that is split like that can't work together to lay the boss.

Excelsior.

To be fair your FF guild is crap mate... But your example is not relevant to this discussion, not entirely.We're talking mostly about Pugs in this discussion, that's a random Pick Up Group, as in grouping through LFG, in those conditions you're not invested in your companions, and just want to clear the content, not to waste time explaining the ropes. That's why Fractals have Tiers, and Raids have training groups and guilds. For people to learn. So if you're joining a Raid that asks for KP and nowhere states they want to teach you to play, that's not the group for you. Its even worse for fractals, if you're joining Tier 4, people have the right to assume you should know what you're doing, that's why its the 4th tier of difficulty, if you're playing there, you should have a decent build and know mechanics.

In guild groups, that's a different story, there's guilds for every mindset, and, as a guild master since 2005, i think it's the guild's job to pull out the best of their members and teach new people, and help them experience all the game has to offer. I've had several "world best" players coming from my guild in several games in the past. I will gladly spend hours getting my guild mates through content, and teaching them how to do it, that's part of what i like about games, helping others and seeing them grow.Other guilds will be perfectionist speedrunners, and tensions do happen, its a matter of finding the right community for you.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:snip

hey, I'm all for dps meter but not 3rd party

[Pifil.5193]

@Zedek.8932 said:I do not raid. But in another game from Square Enix, I've encountered a mind-baffling dungeon run. Our Free Company (their equivalent to a guild) had mad beef going on because I used a different skill for that dungeon on a special enemy because my Blackmage was out of mana. We were

• ...easily getting through
• ...nobody died from that
• ...I had to do it because I messed up a bit with my rotation

Guess what happened. We took 18 seconds too long (and had 54 minutes left on the clock) when the tank suddenly started a pitchfork crowd because I slightly messed up. Because we took 18 seconds longer.

18 seconds!

It was literally just about that little bit of delay. Nobody was dying, nobody ragequitted. It was literally just because some guy threw a tantrum over a minor dent in their aspired performance of that run. When you grow older and you see how much bad stuff will happen to you and your life or your loved ones, and you just want to play a video game as your leisure, and meet people, unemployed maybe, that have no other sense of satisfaction than logging their video game performances like that, sorry, then ban these darn things. The sooner the better.

That was a bad guildmaster/raid leader there. I've been in raids in WoW where someone starts kicking off about how someone else is performing and it's up to the raid leader to yank their chain.

On the other hand I've been in raids in WoW where someone isn't performing well enough for the encounter and we've all worked on helping them out, figuring out the problem, helping them get better, sometimes with build or rotation help, sometimes with gear runs after (or instead of) the raid. In those cases a DPS meter is a godsend for detecting a problem.

Either way, the problem is the attitude of the people involved and not the DPS meter, you might as well blame the existence of difficult content for all the game's problems. Some people will be jerks no matter what. In your case it wasn't a problem caused by DPS meters; it was caused by a jerk with a watch or clock and we can hardly ban time.

[Deihnyx.6318]

This type of request always comes down to "I don't like people who do this, therefore it shouldn't exist".~2018

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"Zedek.8932" said:I do not raid. But in another game from Square Enix, I've encountered a mind-baffling dungeon run. Our Free Company (their equivalent to a guild) had mad beef going on because I used a different skill for that dungeon on a special enemy because my Blackmage was out of mana. We were

• ...easily getting through
• ...nobody died from that
• ...I had to do it because I messed up a bit with my rotation

Guess what happened. We took 18 seconds too long (and had 54 minutes left on the clock) when the tank suddenly started a pitchfork crowd because I slightly messed up. Because we took 18 seconds longer.

18 seconds!

Back in the CoF Path 1 speed run days in GW2 there was an, "I got kicked!" complaint post on the official forums. It stood out so I remember it. The complainer was a Mesmer, and his complaint was that he had been kicked after the run. This was an issue because typically such groups would do multiple runs together and that was in fact the plan for the group he? was ousted from. This was before reward diminishing returns were put in to discourage people from doing only the easiest path over and over.

Anyway, the person whispered the group starter to ask why he as kicked, as they didn't explain. He was told, "You were a second or so slow pushing the Overseer into the wall, and another second or so slow getting the portal up to bypass the rolling balls of fire."

18 seconds, apparently, is a lifetime.

[Cynn.1659]

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Intention is irrelevant. Slacking unintentionally is a thing, now? An excuse, for what? People somehow behave like they are entitled to be carried, like they are entitled to not get told they do bad dps because they will get offended. You do bad dps (for a dps role)? You check why. Is your gear bad? Is your knowledge of the class decent?

Welcome to "I paid for the game, i deserve everything this game has to offer" mentality.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:Elitism is exactly that... People want only the most viable build, in that time, 4 Zerker Warrior + 1 Mesmer ( also zerker, there for Time warp pretty much) was the strongest comp with he most DPS output, and it was meta, and the comp "elitists" picked. Now you have more "top dps" choices, but the logic is the same, it's just that, thanks in part to dps meters, in other part to the DPS golem, the meta choice is based on better evidence to what's the best dps.

A little bit about this in relation to condition damage changes. I don;t agree that what we saw back then about conditions was caused by elitism entirely. The problem back then was bad game design. It was not only unoptimal, it was counterproductive to play conditions in group environment because of the 25 cap for intensity stacking condis and duration cap the rest. Because of such design together with traits and weapon skills passively stacking conditions even for power builds, they were actively overwriting conditions stacked by condi build removing most of its damage. The other thing is bursty nature of dungeons and fractals (even to this day) which weren't good place for sustain damage. It's not elitism when game gives you square wheels for your car and you don't want to use it, it's just logic.

[Last Crysis.1934]

@DarkEagle.7381 said:Let me guess you were the soulbeast who got kicked, right? Here's the thing, Raid bosses have enrage timers where if you don't kill them before the time is up you basically wipe because their damage gets massively boosted. Some are more tolerant than others in terms of raw DPS. So, if you have a couple people doing low DPS you will not kill the boss.

For fractals, this is not the case. However, Fractals go 1000 times smoother when people actually are not a dead weight. Someone doing very low DPS can be felt without a DPS meter. It feels like you are 4-manning the fractal. Same goes for a healer not healing or a chrono not putting out boons. They might as well just not be there or be replaced by someone who actually contributes. Condi classes in general are less effective than power because of the nature of fractals. The potential for condi classes is far below that of power classes so, playing a condi class, you are already at a massive disadvantage DPS wise. The one exception is Firebrand because of the high burst that no other condi class has.

I use a DPS meter and never yell at people for having really low DPS but you can 100% tell the difference between someone pulling 5k DPS and someone pulling 15k DPS in a Fractal. Having the meter does not make people toxic. People are toxic because they are toxic. If the meter wasn't there they'd be yelling at the whole group for being bad because they probably wouldn't be able to tell who among the 5 as bad. Long story short, you shouldn't have low DPS in T4 Fractals or Raids (if you are a DPS class) or you are dragging your team down and quite possibly causing the wipe yourself by being bad or you are leeching which is just as bad.

No I run reaper. I already think soulbeast is a bad class but the that is not the point instead of helping the guy figure out how to be better they just just looked at his dps and went you suck so your out. So yes I would like to see the dps meter gone if it just leading to ppl kicking ppl from the party and not trying to help the person fix there build.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Last Crysis.1934 said:

@DarkEagle.7381 said:Let me guess you were the soulbeast who got kicked, right? Here's the thing, Raid bosses have enrage timers where if you don't kill them before the time is up you basically wipe because their damage gets massively boosted. Some are more tolerant than others in terms of raw DPS. So, if you have a couple people doing low DPS you will not kill the boss.

For fractals, this is not the case. However, Fractals go 1000 times smoother when people actually are not a dead weight. Someone doing very low DPS can be felt without a DPS meter. It feels like you are 4-manning the fractal. Same goes for a healer not healing or a chrono not putting out boons. They might as well just not be there or be replaced by someone who actually contributes. Condi classes in general are less effective than power because of the nature of fractals. The potential for condi classes is far below that of power classes so, playing a condi class, you are already at a massive disadvantage DPS wise. The one exception is Firebrand because of the high burst that no other condi class has.

I use a DPS meter and never yell at people for having really low DPS but you can 100% tell the difference between someone pulling 5k DPS and someone pulling 15k DPS in a Fractal. Having the meter does not make people toxic. People are toxic because they are toxic. If the meter wasn't there they'd be yelling at the whole group for being bad because they probably wouldn't be able to tell who among the 5 as bad. Long story short, you shouldn't have low DPS in T4 Fractals or Raids (if you are a DPS class) or you are dragging your team down and quite possibly causing the wipe yourself by being bad or you are leeching which is just as bad.

No I run reaper. I already think soulbeast is a bad class but the that is not the point instead of helping the guy figure out how to be better they just just looked at his dps and went you suck so your out. So yes I would like to see the dps meter gone if it just leading to ppl kicking ppl from the party and not trying to help the person fix there build.

Fun fact before Combat Meters people were kicked/excluded from content based upon what class they ran most notably Necros and Rangers, no matter how they actually performed, just playin in those classes they were excluded/kicked, or based on an amount of AP, now it’s based on actual accurate objective relevant data, again Toxicity was just as a bad and arguably worse since it was based on extremely arbitrary and unfounded claims.

Also no one player is entitled to another player’s time if they don’t want to play with them.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:snip

hey, I'm all for dps meter but not 3rd party

Well proprietary DPS meters are a bit of a waste of manpower from ArenaNet, especially when they can easily just vet the third party ones. If you're afraid of untoward behaviours, don't use them.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Elitism is exactly that... People want only the most viable build, in that time, 4 Zerker Warrior + 1 Mesmer ( also zerker, there for Time warp pretty much) was the strongest comp with he most DPS output, and it was meta, and the comp "elitists" picked. Now you have more "top dps" choices, but the logic is the same, it's just that, thanks in part to dps meters, in other part to the DPS golem, the meta choice is based on better evidence to what's the best dps.

A little bit about this in relation to condition damage changes. I don;t agree that what we saw back then about conditions was caused by elitism entirely. The problem back then was bad game design. It was not only unoptimal, it was counterproductive to play conditions in group environment because of the 25 cap for intensity stacking condis and duration cap the rest. Because of such design together with traits and weapon skills passively stacking conditions even for power builds, they were actively overwriting conditions stacked by condi build removing most of its damage. The other thing is bursty nature of dungeons and fractals (even to this day) which weren't good place for sustain damage. It's not elitism when game gives you square wheels for your car and you don't want to use it, it's just logic.

Condition damage was irrelevant... The "Speedrunners" weren't just excluding Condi damage builds, they were excluding everything not Zerker Warriors! So your argument is totally irrelevant to that. Not only that, but i'd run with condi builds and finish in the 10 minute area, so not much slower than speed runs. It's not about condition damage, it's about people wanting the absolute best build for their speed clears, and back then, the absolute best was considered to be 4 Berserker stat Warriors plus one mesmer (if not 5 warriors). Now we have a clearer picture thanks to DPS meters and the golem, and more choice with condi damage being "fixed" from then, but the mentality is the same.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:snip

hey, I'm all for dps meter but not 3rd party

Well proprietary DPS meters are a bit of a waste of manpower from ArenaNet, especially when they can easily just vet the third party ones. If you're afraid of untoward behaviours, don't use them.

They technically have dps meter framework in place - they are used in PvP and in DPS Golem instance. What we don't have is UI representation of them. Combat log is obviously far from ideal solution.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Elitism is exactly that... People want only the most viable build, in that time, 4 Zerker Warrior + 1 Mesmer ( also zerker, there for Time warp pretty much) was the strongest comp with he most DPS output, and it was meta, and the comp "elitists" picked. Now you have more "top dps" choices, but the logic is the same, it's just that, thanks in part to dps meters, in other part to the DPS golem, the meta choice is based on better evidence to what's the best dps.

A little bit about this in relation to condition damage changes. I don;t agree that what we saw back then about conditions was caused by elitism entirely. The problem back then was bad game design. It was not only unoptimal, it was counterproductive to play conditions in group environment because of the 25 cap for intensity stacking condis and duration cap the rest. Because of such design together with traits and weapon skills passively stacking conditions even for power builds, they were actively overwriting conditions stacked by condi build removing most of its damage. The other thing is bursty nature of dungeons and fractals (even to this day) which weren't good place for sustain damage. It's not elitism when game gives you square wheels for your car and you don't want to use it, it's just logic.

Condition damage was irrelevant... The "Speedrunners" weren't just excluding Condi damage builds, they were excluding everything not Zerker Warriors! So your argument is totally irrelevant to that. Not only that, but i'd run with condi builds and finish in the 10 minute area, so not much slower than speed runs. It's not about condition damage, it's about people wanting the absolute best build for their speed clears, and back then, the absolute best was considered to be 4 Berserker stat Warriors plus one mesmer (if not 5 warriors). Now we have a clearer picture thanks to DPS meters and the golem, and more choice with condi damage being "fixed" from then, but the mentality is the same.

You are mixing two things. Yes, 4 warriors + 1 mesmer or reeee was elitism. But the fact that conditions were below viable status because of bad game design is another thing. Elitism was, is and will be present with or without dps meter.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Throughout the years, I have seen this back and forth evolve from "Zerk gear ONLY" to "Ping gear or KICK" to "NO NECROS" to "DPS over threshold or KICK" and the people railing against those ideas, but all in all the way for dealing with it hasn't changed.

Some people are elitist. Mechanics cant change that. Mechanics cant make people be less elitist. They will find something to divide people based on some arbitrary stat.

some people are speedrunners. Mechanics wont change that. They will always optimize their gear and acquire people who do so to clear things as efficiently as possible.

Some people are relaxed. Mechanics won't change that. They dont care what you run as long as you are not a burden.

Some people are new. Mechanics won't change that. They will either go with a cookie cutter build or carve out their own and fall into one of the aforementioned groups over time.

Just avoid playing with those that rub you the wrong way, instead of wasting time trying to find a way to manipulate mechanics and information to get people to tolerate you if they refuse to. As was said before, chill groups exist. The people that won't tolerate you based on DPS meters will not suddenly do so if the DPS meters are removed. They will simply go back to "Ping gear or KICK" and then we will be fighting trying to make zerker punish players for running it, like we did last year/the year before.

The DPS meter is helping. It's allowing people to see hard numbers instead of making approximations based on what gear you're running. Those numbers are a culmination of execution and build, instead of just one or the other. Toxic people be toxic. its not the DPS meter's fault.

[Moogri.1935]

Errr no DPS meters shouldn't be banned. As many people have already said in this thread: toxic elitism will always be there. But dps meters give us a more accurate understanding of why your group is doing bad. I'd rather that accuracy that someone being scapegoated based on arbitrary criteria like AP or class.

You also have to understand that some content isn't easy and a bad player can multiply the time it takes to clear content.As for the more easier content, it depends. Most of the time I (and I'm sure many others) are more than happy to carrying an underperforming teammate/s, other times I'll tolerate it. But if I'm having a really shitty day, I might just not want to deal with that. So I'll either point out a specific player's performance or just plain leave the party.

I reckon that an underperforming player wanting to be carried can be toxic too. As I said before, a bad player that's not yet ready for the specific content can multiply the time it takes for the group to complete, which is wasting people's time. When you point it out to them or try to help them, they think it's an attack on their ego and lash back. Or just ignore your advice and continue to be bad. Toxic noobism.

That being said, though, I think I haven't been trying to help other players enough lately. Guess this is a good reminder.

[mauried.5608]

You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

[Cynn.1659]

@mauried.5608 said:You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

full berserker ele doing 5k dps, is beyond underperforming, you can get more dps by just casting lava fonts off cd and spamming staff 1is that simple enough?