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A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.


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@archmagus.7249 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:The thing is with DPS meters, they're not very accurate. Even high prestige guilds admit that.

Well we don't need DPs meter to be accurate to decimal point ..We know a person who claim to be dps does 2k DPS is not a DPS guy. You can't cheat ?

I wasn't saying that they're scientifically accurate, but that they only give ballpark estimates. They can be off by a couple hundred or even a thousand. There's no reason to kick someone because of a DPS meter; or lack thereof.

That's reaching a bit, don't you think? It's pretty rare that anyone is going to kick someone for being even a few thousand DPS off the benchmark. Further, do you know of any specific and significant bug in arcDPS reporting that would account for one player out of 10 consistently underperforming?

I agree that people shouldn't kick based on DPS meters - within reason. On the other hand, individuals should endeavor to make their own intentions clear and join groups appropriate for their level of skill/knowledge. It's a bit of a two way street, in my mind. And as far as DPS meters go, they are a useful tool for personal and group use. I'm firmly in the camp of leaving things as they are, although I wouldn't mind a built-in option.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:The thing is with DPS meters, they're not very accurate. Even high prestige guilds admit that.

Well we don't need DPs meter to be accurate to decimal point ..We know a person who claim to be dps does 2k DPS is not a DPS guy. You can't cheat ?

I wasn't saying that they're scientifically accurate, but that they only give ballpark estimates. They can be off by a couple hundred or even a thousand. There's no reason to kick someone because of a DPS meter; or lack thereof.

That's reaching a bit, don't you think? It's pretty rare that anyone is going to kick someone for being even a few thousand DPS off the benchmark. Further, do you know of any specific and significant bug in arcDPS reporting that would account for one player out of 10 consistently underperforming?

I agree that people shouldn't kick based on DPS meters - within reason. On the other hand, individuals should endeavor to make their own intentions clear and join groups appropriate for their level of skill/knowledge. It's a bit of a two way street, in my mind. And as far as DPS meters go, they are a useful tool for personal and group use. I'm firmly in the camp of leaving things as they are, although I wouldn't mind a built-in option.

Also, you have to account for human error maybe that person pressed the wrong key by mistake, dragging down their DPS. As an engineer, I've done this several times. Missing that fire bomb before going into holoforge can have a big impact on dps.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:The thing is with DPS meters, they're not very accurate. Even high prestige guilds admit that.

Well we don't need DPs meter to be accurate to decimal point ..We know a person who claim to be dps does 2k DPS is not a DPS guy. You can't cheat ?

I wasn't saying that they're scientifically accurate, but that they only give ballpark estimates. They can be off by a couple hundred or even a thousand. There's no reason to kick someone because of a DPS meter; or lack thereof.

That's reaching a bit, don't you think? It's pretty rare that anyone is going to kick someone for being even a few thousand DPS off the benchmark. Further, do you know of any specific and significant bug in arcDPS reporting that would account for one player out of 10 consistently underperforming?

I agree that people shouldn't kick based on DPS meters - within reason. On the other hand, individuals should endeavor to make their own intentions clear and join groups appropriate for their level of skill/knowledge. It's a bit of a two way street, in my mind. And as far as DPS meters go, they are a useful tool for personal and group use. I'm firmly in the camp of leaving things as they are, although I wouldn't mind a built-in option.

Also, you have to account for human error maybe that person pressed the wrong key by mistake, dragging down their DPS. As an engineer, I've done this several times. Missing that fire bomb before going into holoforge can have a big impact on dps.

Yes, it sounds good but how often in practice do you have raid leaders that demand a perfect rotation? Are we talking errors here and there, or 50% less DPS than everyone else in the group? We aren't talking in specifics because as soon as you do you see just how implausible this argument is. I don't doubt you've experienced it before, but how often is this really happening where a player is skilled/knowledgeable enough, the group isn't struggling, but the raid leader is just a DPS-meter-watching freak that demands absolute perfection!

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@Torzini.1523 said:I've played many MMOs, and this is the absolute first one I've seen where people whine so much about having a DPS meter.

Here's the thing. GW2 was touted as a non generic game. Breaking from the norm. IIRC, they said no DPS meters in the game, which is still true by not having one in the game. But allowed through 3rd party app.

You can have your cake and eat it too...

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This isn't only a problem in raid communities as far as I'm concerned.I kid you not, in vanilla PVE I got flamed at yesterday for tagging up a meta event ( because it was organized very last minute, and nobody else saw fit to tag up so I did ) as a heal tempest. Yes. As a build that doesn't necessarily do a whole lot of damage.One person came up to me and started talking about how I wasn't doing enough dps as a commander, according to their 3rd party program, and I said well no I'm a heal build, I'm uncapable of doing a whole lot of damage.

Like?? Since when is a commander in vanilla pve, leading an event, required to do the #1 amount of damage of the squad at that moment.Since when is it absolutely illegal to tag up with whatever character and lead an event for the only purpose of loot, and having fun, instead of trying to be the best at the game.I get that in raids it can be a huge deal to do a certain number of dps, and I understand it can be useful to know.But for vanilla pve and then use the 3rd party tool as a thing to trashtalk someone else? Yikes.

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@MauChann.3081 said:This isn't only a problem in raid communities as far as I'm concerned.I kid you not, in vanilla PVE I got flamed at yesterday for tagging up a meta event ( because it was organized very last minute, and nobody else saw fit to tag up so I did ) as a heal tempest. Yes. As a build that doesn't necessarily do a whole lot of damage.One person came up to me and started talking about how I wasn't doing enough dps as a commander, according to their 3rd party program, and I said well no I'm a heal build, I'm uncapable of doing a whole lot of damage.

Like?? Since when is a commander in vanilla pve, leading an event, required to do the #1 amount of damage of the squad at that moment.Since when is it absolutely illegal to tag up with whatever character and lead an event for the only purpose of loot, and having fun, instead of trying to be the best at the game.I get that in raids it can be a huge deal to do a certain number of dps, and I understand it can be useful to know.But for vanilla pve and then use the 3rd party tool as a thing to trashtalk someone else? Yikes.

Use the Mentor tag, no squad function and no DPS hype...

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@"mauried.5608" said:What seems to be missing in these threads about DPS meters is what exactly are the meters measuring, and what do the numbers mean?ie what numbers = doing you bit , whatever that means, and below what numbers will you get the boot for not doing enough?ie how are players supposed to know what the readings from the dps meters mean?Generally, it's relative. Yes, there are some benchmarks out there that tell you what the class should be capable of, but almost noone judges people accorting to them. What matters is a set of "tests"First is dps group test: if in a dps role your numbers are significantly lower than other players from the dps group, it's generally not good. You will most likely not be kicked at this point yet (after all, someone always is last), but it is an info to yourself that you might think about doing some improving.Second is the warrior test: if in a dps role your numbers are lower than those of a banner slave, it's generally bad.Third is the chrono test: if in a dps role your numbers are lower than those of a support chrono, it's generally very bad.There's also a healer test, but we don't really want to go in there, do we.

(yes, there are people that fail the healer test)

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Blaming dps meters is silly because youre blaming objectivity. The truth that someone is underperforming is threre whether or not a tool is measuring it or not. If you dont like the standards set by a group, make your own or join one that is accepting of your performance.

If dps meters were removed we'd simply go back to excluding necros, checking api codes or some other inaccruate form of measurement. Veteran experienced players will still exclude you, it'll just be way more unfair.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:The thing is with DPS meters, they're not very accurate. Even high prestige guilds admit that.

Well we don't need DPs meter to be accurate to decimal point ..We know a person who claim to be dps does 2k DPS is not a DPS guy. You can't cheat ?

I wasn't saying that they're scientifically accurate, but that they only give ballpark estimates. They can be off by a couple hundred or even a thousand. There's no reason to kick someone because of a DPS meter; or lack thereof.

Nah really depends on who is using it. I sux at DPs.. so I always usually play support since first day of my mmo life .. DPs is useful only in raids. Since it's on .. ppl can see it too in other content.. fractal for example.. I haven't seen ppl verbally abuse anyone in fractal where someone DPs sux while joining a group asking for DPs. It wasn't so bad. When it comes to harder content in mmo, lfg says DPS means someone can pull reasonable damage as per his role requirement.. why would someone join a group claim he is DPs and hardly does 3k. A lot of time ppl don't even know what is 3k DPS. We had a few and many pug join fractal as DPs and his DPs was lower than the chrono as support. Me and my hub just make joke the whole way among ourselves picking on each other rather than the poor guy. No one said anything bad either things done slower but who cares. Thing is.. DPs meter helps ppl to improve. My hub plays DPs role.. it's important to him. I only run DPs meter when I play DPS role

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@"Sarpan.9074" said:The very funny and ironic thing is that as a result of this thread I installed a DPS meter out of curiosity. It was mainly to see how I stacked up against others in meta events and bounties, which are pretty much the only I'm in a group.

The result was depressing. My contribution was near the bottom in all cases. As a result, I'm looking at my build and "rotation" and other aspects of my gameplay.

In short, the meter is helping me become a better player. YMMV.

I think that many who are against meters would probably accept them if they only showed results to the individual player to help them better understand and re-tool their builds -- like you mentioned. My understanding is that those opposed don't want the results publicly shared with other DPS users (or at least not without some kind of Opt-out ability)

There is an Opt-out it’s called not grouping with players using Meters, consent is given as soon as a player joins a group since all Combat data is public data and is not owned by any single player.

It would be nice if players could tell who was using a meter or who wasnt, but thats not the case that way they could avoid players using them, but what do i know.

<--not against meters, would rather have an official meter thats part of the game than one thats a 3rd party which means i wont use it.

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When I say I havent seen anyone abusing someone under performing as DPS role in fractal is referring to ppl using offensive language or bad words etc with intention to put the other person down. I quite often see this in raids, but raids is challenging content and this is where dps tools are great aid for group overall performance.In fractal, if someone just point out saying that our DPs guy doing xx DPs entire time.. that to me isn't so bad as it is to help the guy who jump in the group claiming to fill the DPs role, to understand he isn't even doing what expected as DPs in general (I'm referring to fractal as that's where I spent most time daily). In open world content I don't think if it is even relevant or useful.I'm saying.. don't join a group asking for specific role if you are not certain or confident with that role. If you join at least be humble and tell others too that you are trialing the prof. and allow you to do so. It affects others gaming experience if you are being hard and sensitive.. If you join my group in fractal you will be accepted even if you are cripple as a DPs. I am more critical with fake chrono. ??

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@Dante.1763 said:

@"Sarpan.9074" said:The very funny and ironic thing is that as a result of this thread I installed a DPS meter out of curiosity. It was mainly to see how I stacked up against others in meta events and bounties, which are pretty much the only I'm in a group.

The result was depressing. My contribution was near the bottom in all cases. As a result, I'm looking at my build and "rotation" and other aspects of my gameplay.

In short, the meter is helping me become a better player. YMMV.

I think that many who are against meters would probably accept them if they only showed results to the individual player to help them better understand and re-tool their builds -- like you mentioned. My understanding is that those opposed don't want the results publicly shared with other DPS users (or at least not without some kind of Opt-out ability)

There is an Opt-out it’s called not grouping with players using Meters, consent is given as soon as a player joins a group since all Combat data is public data and is not owned by any single player.

It would be nice if players could tell who was using a meter or who wasnt, but thats not the case that way they
could
avoid players using them, but what do i know.

<--not against meters, would rather have an official meter thats part of the game than one thats a 3rd party which means i wont use it.

I generally hate DPS meters but in GW2 they are needed now :( When a game incorporates a raid style combat mode they are necessary.

That being said, they always end up favoring the absolute top of the heap with the besterest of the best gear and no latency whatsoever. The rest of the community inevitably grabs those numbers and assumes they are attainable for everyone... so most of us get left out even if we are optimized as much as possible. Even worse, the dev's (lookin' at you WoW) always end up tuning fights for those elite numbers as well. If meters ARE needed for completion of certain in-game mechanics (boss HP v's enrage times etc, because it's nice to know if a group is actually physically capable of killing the boss before it wipes the party), then PLEASE include a way of monitoring our dps (and heals and threat!!!) INGAME!

Wow and SWTOR should be the example of what NOT to do here... Wow has so many third party meters that no one knows which is accurate, and players always choose the meter that makes their play-style and latency look better. SWTOR only has parsing meters which most of the community have no idea how to even install properly, let alone actually use, meaning that only a chosen few can actually see them and those people dictate who gets the raid spots.

Another kind of unrelated issue I have with GW2 as far as raids go, is that they DID make the game with the catch phrase "play how you want". They deliberately disregarded the holy trinity (or quartet if you include games like rift with their buff classes). Now we have raids where dedicated tanks/healers/buffers/glass cannon style dps are a necessity, inside a game where they were willfully left out of the original profession designs.

We're also badly lacking any kind of easily accessible dev made boss guides, advanced and concise (and CURRENT!!) class guides, role guides, and raid guides... so getting people to optimize and know the fights is a losing battle from the start really... which is sad, because I really miss raid leading and healing... I was over the moon when I found out GW2 had incorporated raids into the game. I'm really disappointed that I can't access the necessary resources that a raid leader needs to build a good, solid, cohesive team.

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@Noctoi.1965 said:

@"Sarpan.9074" said:The very funny and ironic thing is that as a result of this thread I installed a DPS meter out of curiosity. It was mainly to see how I stacked up against others in meta events and bounties, which are pretty much the only I'm in a group.

The result was depressing. My contribution was near the bottom in all cases. As a result, I'm looking at my build and "rotation" and other aspects of my gameplay.

In short, the meter is helping me become a better player. YMMV.

I think that many who are against meters would probably accept them if they only showed results to the individual player to help them better understand and re-tool their builds -- like you mentioned. My understanding is that those opposed don't want the results publicly shared with other DPS users (or at least not without some kind of Opt-out ability)

There is an Opt-out it’s called not grouping with players using Meters, consent is given as soon as a player joins a group since all Combat data is public data and is not owned by any single player.

It would be nice if players could tell who was using a meter or who wasnt, but thats not the case that way they
could
avoid players using them, but what do i know.

<--not against meters, would rather have an official meter thats part of the game than one thats a 3rd party which means i wont use it.

I generally hate DPS meters but in GW2 they are needed now :( When a game incorporates a raid style combat mode they are necessary.

That being said, they always end up favoring the absolute top of the heap with the besterest of the best gear and no latency whatsoever. The rest of the community inevitably grabs those numbers and assumes they are attainable for everyone... so most of us get left out even if we are optimized as much as possible.

If you have the right gear and have half a semblence of a rotation, you are not going to be left out. The dps requirements for the easier bosses are also pitifully low for end game content. Cairn for example is 4.5k average for each party member to kill before enrage. Start a group of your own and youll see how easy it is. Most failures outside of gors and kc arent because dps isnt there.

Even worse, the dev's (lookin' at you WoW) always end up tuning fights for those elite numbers as well. If meters ARE needed for completion of certain in-game mechanics (boss HP v's enrage times etc, because it's nice to know if a group is actually physically capable of killing the boss before it wipes the party), then PLEASE include a way of monitoring our dps (and heals and threat!!!) INGAME!

Sure first party meter would be nice but the use case would be pretty low and the third party option is good enough. Would rather not waste dev time on this. Arc shows up in game automatically once you install it.

Wow and SWTOR should be the example of what NOT to do here... Wow has so many third party meters that no one knows which is accurate, and players always choose the meter that makes their play-style and latency look better. SWTOR only has parsing meters which most of the community have no idea how to even install properly, let alone actually use, meaning that only a chosen few can actually see them and those people dictate who gets the raid spots.

Good thing arc is neither of these. It's brainless to install and is the only choice for meters atm.

Another kind of unrelated issue I have with GW2 as far as raids go, is that they DID make the game with the catch phrase "play how you want". They deliberately disregarded the holy trinity (or quartet if you include games like rift with their buff classes). Now we have raids where dedicated tanks/healers/buffers/glass cannon style dps are a necessity, inside a game where they were willfully left out of the original profession designs.

We're also badly lacking any kind of easily accessible dev made boss guides, advanced and concise (and CURRENT!!) class guides, role guides, and raid guides... so getting people to optimize and know the fights is a losing battle from the start really... which is sad, because I really miss raid leading and healing... I was over the moon when I found out GW2 had incorporated raids into the game. I'm really disappointed that I can't access the necessary resources that a raid leader needs to build a good, solid, cohesive team.

Not sure why you would need dev created resources to raid when theres a billion guides made by the community which are probably higher quality than anet could reasonably make anyways. Saying that you can't raid because theres no resources made by devs is honestly a terrible excuse. A lack of a robust group finder would be a valid complaint but still not enough of a barrier to keep people from successfully clearing.

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I don't know how DPS meters actually work.

If a character is moving to gain better position is that held against them because they are not engaging the enemy? If they are supporting a teammate or casting conditions that don't do much direct damage but hinder the enemy, is that their fault?

I realize if a character constantly attacks it's easy to determine DPS.

Let me know if I'm right, wrong, or somewhere in-between.

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@Game of Bones.8975 said:I don't know how DPS meters actually work.

If a character is moving to gain better position is that held against them because they are not engaging the enemy? If they are supporting a teammate or casting conditions that don't do much direct damage but hinder the enemy, is that their fault?

I realize if a character constantly attacks it's easy to determine DPS.

Let me know if I'm right, wrong, or somewhere in-between.

The meter itself tracks all kinds of data. Its up to the player to interpret that data with the given context.

To answer your questions directly, yes dps will be hindered if you spend a lot of time moving around or playing a support role. Two questions arise. Is that support role truly needed. If yes, why is the success of that role gauged by damage numbers. The dps meter also tracks boon and buff uptimes as well and would be more indicative of the success of that role.

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As much as I love this game and find the majority of players to be very pleasant indeed to play with, the issue of DPS metres irks me. Why do people care if their damage is measured or not? It's not some great personal secret being revealed, nobody is secretly filming you in the shower or whatever.

Your DPS reveals nothing more about you other than whether or not you are actually as good a player as you say or think you are.

The real issue isn't "toxicity" imo, it's the revelation of Awkward Truths. Nobody likes to actually have to walk the walk after they talk the talk.

In another game I play - Mechwarrior Online, a recent patch added a 1v1 and 2v2 duelist mode. Oh man, did that ruffle some feathers. Suddenly, a lot of "pro" forum players began complaining very loudly about how the mode "wasn't fun" and that it "encourages toxic play" etc etc. What they actually meant was that the big ol' number on their stats screen that never went above 1500 was a nasty truism about just how good they really were.

Sometimes, the truth stings :P

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@"Last Crysis.1934" said:Please make all dps meters a bankable offense.

Yes, please, make it a "bankable" one. As in, people using them get some goodies in the bank. Ore, wood...anything.On point: I guess you were the Soulbeast in that party. Given that SB has a nice dps, I guess you were slacking big time.

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At first, I hated them. Then I started to WvW and raid, and did discover how supportive the tool is. Without it, I could never have learned raid/wvw properly. Of course, it made me change my mind. My very personal opinion is that DPS meters are good tools if used properly.

They are very helpful when:

  • Used with agreement of everybody, to improve performance of a team during Raids and in WvW training, so that we are stronger toward objective.
  • Used to learn a class for raids and/or wvw, because it helps to see when to cast skills, based on cast timing of experienced players same class, and to check if we apply rotation well based on amount of damages compared to those same players.

They are a problem when:

  • They are misused for unpleasant purpose like filtering players of a team, and/or checking on other's performances against their will and criticizing them public.

Sadly, a DPS meter is like any other tool: They are as good - or bad - as what users do of them. And against that, there is no easy solution. I would regret that we lose a good tool due to misuse from some players.

I could imagine some solutions, like for example, that the tool is available to all in game, but with a feature allowing player to block sharing of their data if they don't want to share. From there, each of us could do what he/she wants. For example, me, I would have it active in wvw and raids, but block it in PvE explorable. But well, as is now, it just needs that each of us adapt to the situation best possible. :)

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@Game of Bones.8975 said:I don't know how DPS meters actually work.

If a character is moving to gain better position is that held against them because they are not engaging the enemy? If they are supporting a teammate or casting conditions that don't do much direct damage but hinder the enemy, is that their fault?

I realize if a character constantly attacks it's easy to determine DPS.

Let me know if I'm right, wrong, or somewhere in-between.

There are 2 options in the movement scenario: either everyone else has to move as well and their numbers are lower also or you are doing something wrong

As for support people don't care about their dps

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@"Game of Bones.8975" said:I don't know how DPS meters actually work.

If a character is moving to gain better position is that held against them because they are not engaging the enemy? If they are supporting a teammate or casting conditions that don't do much direct damage but hinder the enemy, is that their fault?

I realize if a character constantly attacks it's easy to determine DPS.

Let me know if I'm right, wrong, or somewhere in-between.

Ideally you will compare with someone playing the same build as you and even better, in the same sub-squad as you. If two players are in the same sub-squad, both play DH and one of them is doing half the damage then honestly that kind of drop is not because of "support" or "movement" but because the lower DH is doing something wrong. Further, dps meters show the overall dps of the encounter, how much you are doing at a given time is irrelevant, it's the total once the encounter is finished that "counts". Small differences will always be there and only real jerks would act based on those.

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IMHO the dps meters brought in the chanche to play off meta builds to players that can pull off their weight. So actually it decreased toxicity.

With dps meters me and my static when we pug the last 2-3 spots (usually dps) we take everyone with the required LIs even if they are not playin the meta class for the encounter and see if they pull off their part which is doing DPS. Even if you are playing power reaper but you can pull off a solid 20k dps on the boss then for us you are in.

Remove dps meter and we will probably start accepting only meta and easy classes like thieves if played by pug, just cause we have an higher chanche that they can pull off what we require them to do: DPS.

For raiding (and in part fractals) it is sure an important thing to know mechanics but it is not an excuse to do really low damage. Good DPS means fast encounter, means less chanche to mess up mechs, that can be hard to pull off especially since most of the times your support players are doing them in order to let you do your job: DAMAGE.

If you are not doing damage as a DPS i am sorry to tell you but you are being carried by the rest of the dps and your support players. You are basically leeching.I mean probably the people complaining here never played as a support role in raids and don't get how easy it is to mess up. Ever tried to tanking Xera ? If the dps is not in check things can get pretty nasty for the tank and for the healers --> WIIIIPEEEEEE ---> everybody wasted time because the low dps player was too lazy to play something useful (i don't care if you are meta or not, if that damage is ok play what you want).

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