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Phantasm/Clone cap - PvP players only.


sephiroth.4217

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I feel like the common denominator with all of the viable Mesmer builds at the moment rests solely on the Phantasm/Clone cap, of which there is none.

Pleas keep in mind that there are traits and skills that summon 2 phantasms or 2 clones, combined with Chronomancer you get Continuum Split and then there's also Signet Of Ether.

IF Anet decided to put a cap onto the clones and phantasms, how many would you think is balanced?

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Cap isn't going to do anything unless it's extremely low in which case it becomes overly punishing. Phantasms attack and die quickly. Against decent Mesmers there's seldom a time when there are more than 5 phantasms at the exact same time. It's more like a constant 3-4 phantasms that are endlessly chained. Introducing a cap is a flimsy work around to what they should be doing, which is toning down the source of the phantasm output while significantly reducing their damage. At best a cap will only force Chronos to count. They'll still retain their godlike status though, and with the unprecedented amount of negative feedback towards the class(and I emphasize class because it's not only Chrono but also Mirage that is turning PvP upside down) I would hope that Anet is smart enough to make sure it takes one and only one balance patch to fix this mess.

edited to clarify stuff

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I think you got the problem all wrong. It is not a matter of how many phantasm you summon because let’s be real: you can target a phantasm and prevent the phantasm from doing damages.

The problem is that phantasms (who apply more damages now, some too much) are summoned too much fast due to the trait Chronophantasma, who was originally implemented when phantasms counted towards the illusion cap (as a way to counteract the conflicting mechanics of clones and phantasms).

I think it would better to first make some adjustments to Chronophantasma so that a player doesn’t proc its effect too easily. Obviously after that, the signet heal should be changed as well because being to resummon a phantasm that just got resummoned before through Chronophantasma is overkill now that phantasms are allowed to make more damages.

As for mirages we all know the problem: elusive mind and ability to dodge while being stunned.

Edit: that is what elusive mind should be about. The ability to dodge while being stunned with obviously a fairly long cool down to not chain the effect.

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If you're going to reduce the number of illusions you can summon, you need to have the old phatansma system restored, where they used to remain on the field and be shatterable.I would have no more than 3 Illusions (Clones/Phanstasmas) since it was the initial design limit. Then balance them appropriately.

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There is a soft cap on clones, 3 + any triggered to shatter.

For chrono with super speed shatters the clones will be gone pretty quick so there’s no need for a clone cap.For core and mirage clones shattered travel at base movement speed so tend to linger a bit longer (you can outrun them with swiftness so they never hit) however considering clones have 2.4k health a single hit or 2 will kill them off regardless. Put simply I think complaining about clones is a non issue.

Phantasms though is a different story. They have no cap on the number that can be out consecutively which when combined with chrono phantasma, signet of the ether and being able to summon 2 at a time on some weapons/traits we can rapidly end up with 4 phantasms and 3 clones out at the same time creating a visual mess and that’s not including any running to shatter.

Is the solution a cap on phantasms? No, this is the epitome of lazy ideas and here’s why. It means some attacks would not be useable back to back and many phantasms take a few seconds to finish their attacks. Additionally if chrono phantasma was left intact you would be actively punished for wanting to use a skill because you already used a phantasm skill. This wouldn’t fly on any other class, it would be lunacy to suggest a guardians current consecration is removed if they use a new one, that a necromancers well would be removed if they used another one etc.

So what is the solution? Well a redesign of the traits and skills making phantasms lingering around for large amounts of time and being able to be resummoned repeatedly is one way to do it.Another solution would be to completely remove phantasms entirely from the game. Those skills that summon phantasms are replaced with a weapon skill that does damage in a similar way to how or what the phantasm did but instead it leaves behind a single clone. Clones are left intact as a cap of 3 + whatever is being shattered, no one is being arbitrarily punished for wanting to use a skill and mesmers can finally be done with a mechanic that let enemies have double the counter play against the weapon skill.

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As OP mentioned, there're skills which summon 2 phantasm, which alone is reason enough as to why 1 and 3 cap is silly. The 1 cap specifically is irrational and was only chosen because there was no "idc, just delete mesmer" option to pick.A 2 phantasm cap is questionable simply because it would negate the uses of stuff like Ether Signet and Chronophantasma, which are supposed to encourage you to use the skills back to back. If Anet reworked both of them we could talk about it, but at the moment it doesn't make much sense. Therefore 4 cap is the option in there that makes the most sense.Also fun fact: If anet would really set the cap to 1 or 2 they'd buff phantasm even more to make up for their (even more) reduced uptime, I'm sure we all want that.

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3 clones and 1 Phantasm, where summoning 2 phantasms at a time makes a clone disappear if you have 3 already. Less screen clutter and a way to force mesmers to use their brains a bit. It's a win/win, except for the faceroll bandwagon riders that are only using mesmer because it's the easiest right now.

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@apharma.3741 said:There is a soft cap on clones, 3 + any triggered to shatter.

For chrono with super speed shatters the clones will be gone pretty quick so there’s no need for a clone cap.For core and mirage clones shattered travel at base movement speed so tend to linger a bit longer (you can outrun them with swiftness so they never hit) however considering clones have 2.4k health a single hit or 2 will kill them off regardless. Put simply I think complaining about clones is a non issue.

Phantasms though is a different story. They have no cap on the number that can be out consecutively which when combined with chrono phantasma, signet of the ether and being able to summon 2 at a time on some weapons/traits we can rapidly end up with 4 phantasms and 3 clones out at the same time creating a visual mess and that’s not including any running to shatter.

Is the solution a cap on phantasms? No, this is the epitome of lazy ideas and here’s why. It means some attacks would not be useable back to back and many phantasms take a few seconds to finish their attacks. Additionally if chrono phantasma was left intact you would be actively punished for wanting to use a skill because you already used a phantasm skill. This wouldn’t fly on any other class, it would be lunacy to suggest a guardians current consecration is removed if they use a new one, that a necromancers well would be removed if they used another one etc.

So what is the solution? Well a redesign of the traits and skills making phantasms lingering around for large amounts of time and being able to be resummoned repeatedly is one way to do it.Another solution would be to completely remove phantasms entirely from the game. Those skills that summon phantasms are replaced with a weapon skill that does damage in a similar way to how or what the phantasm did but instead it leaves behind a single clone. Clones are left intact as a cap of 3 + whatever is being shattered, no one is being arbitrarily punished for wanting to use a skill and mesmers can finally be done with a mechanic that let enemies have double the counter play against the weapon skill.

Don't worry. Non mesmer players seem hell bent on believing that a phantasm cap will somehow fix the class, and Anet will go and listen to them instead of us, and implement a cap without touching CP or SotE.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:There is a soft cap on clones, 3 + any triggered to shatter.

For chrono with super speed shatters the clones will be gone pretty quick so there’s no need for a clone cap.For core and mirage clones shattered travel at base movement speed so tend to linger a bit longer (you can outrun them with swiftness so they never hit) however considering clones have 2.4k health a single hit or 2 will kill them off regardless. Put simply I think complaining about clones is a non issue.

Phantasms though is a different story. They have no cap on the number that can be out consecutively which when combined with chrono phantasma, signet of the ether and being able to summon 2 at a time on some weapons/traits we can rapidly end up with 4 phantasms and 3 clones out at the same time creating a visual mess and that’s not including any running to shatter.

Is the solution a cap on phantasms? No, this is the epitome of lazy ideas and here’s why. It means some attacks would not be useable back to back and many phantasms take a few seconds to finish their attacks. Additionally if chrono phantasma was left intact you would be actively punished for wanting to use a skill because you already used a phantasm skill. This wouldn’t fly on any other class, it would be lunacy to suggest a guardians current consecration is removed if they use a new one, that a necromancers well would be removed if they used another one etc.

So what is the solution? Well a redesign of the traits and skills making phantasms lingering around for large amounts of time and being able to be resummoned repeatedly is one way to do it.Another solution would be to completely remove phantasms entirely from the game. Those skills that summon phantasms are replaced with a weapon skill that does damage in a similar way to how or what the phantasm did but instead it leaves behind a single clone. Clones are left intact as a cap of 3 + whatever is being shattered, no one is being arbitrarily punished for wanting to use a skill and mesmers can finally be done with a mechanic that let enemies have double the counter play against the weapon skill.

Don't worry. Non mesmer players seem hell bent on believing that a phantasm cap will somehow fix the class, and Anet will go and listen to them instead of us, and implement a cap without touching CP or SotE.

That's just how the poll framed it. If there were options to change ChronoPhantasma, iDefender/Disenchanter, Signet of the Ether, I suspect there would be different discussions

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:There is a soft cap on clones, 3 + any triggered to shatter.

For chrono with super speed shatters the clones will be gone pretty quick so there’s no need for a clone cap.For core and mirage clones shattered travel at base movement speed so tend to linger a bit longer (you can outrun them with swiftness so they never hit) however considering clones have 2.4k health a single hit or 2 will kill them off regardless. Put simply I think complaining about clones is a non issue.

Phantasms though is a different story. They have no cap on the number that can be out consecutively which when combined with chrono phantasma, signet of the ether and being able to summon 2 at a time on some weapons/traits we can rapidly end up with 4 phantasms and 3 clones out at the same time creating a visual mess and that’s not including any running to shatter.

Is the solution a cap on phantasms? No, this is the epitome of lazy ideas and here’s why. It means some attacks would not be useable back to back and many phantasms take a few seconds to finish their attacks. Additionally if chrono phantasma was left intact you would be actively punished for wanting to use a skill because you already used a phantasm skill. This wouldn’t fly on any other class, it would be lunacy to suggest a guardians current consecration is removed if they use a new one, that a necromancers well would be removed if they used another one etc.

So what is the solution? Well a redesign of the traits and skills making phantasms lingering around for large amounts of time and being able to be resummoned repeatedly is one way to do it.Another solution would be to completely remove phantasms entirely from the game. Those skills that summon phantasms are replaced with a weapon skill that does damage in a similar way to how or what the phantasm did but instead it leaves behind a single clone. Clones are left intact as a cap of 3 + whatever is being shattered, no one is being arbitrarily punished for wanting to use a skill and mesmers can finally be done with a mechanic that let enemies have double the counter play against the weapon skill.

Don't worry. Non mesmer players seem hell bent on believing that a phantasm cap will somehow fix the class, and Anet will go and listen to them instead of us, and implement a cap without touching CP or SotE.

That's just how the poll framed it. If there were options to change ChronoPhantasma, iDefender/Disenchanter, Signet of the Ether, I suspect there would be different discussions

This is specifically about the Phantasm/Clone cap that appears to be making any Mes build viable.

I personally don't have an issue with Chronophantasma because it's essentially a nerf to the old illusions... Instead of continuously attacking like they used too, they only attack twice. The damage on said illusions is a bit high though.

As for your "non mesmer players" comment.... You'll notice I have 4 visible Mesmers in character selection screen and you will notice the shiny plat badge next to the name... So your assumption is way off.F1VilnT.jpgkJjP6kt.jpg

AI cap would only make the player be more precise in their actions rather than brainlessly spamming AI's. That in itself is a massive nerf to any player who doesn't main Mes.

I personally don't use Signet either on my main build, I use Continuum Split but usually as Continuum split > Mirror Images > Cry of Frustration > mirror images > cry of frustration... (really fun on Illusions/Duelist grievers build actually)I have Chronophantasma but I use that for double torch daze or for Pistol because double Duelist can stack a few bleeds if you run Duelist trait lines. Also Rogue... But that needs a damage nerf like some other phantasms.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:There is a soft cap on clones, 3 + any triggered to shatter.

For chrono with super speed shatters the clones will be gone pretty quick so there’s no need for a clone cap.For core and mirage clones shattered travel at base movement speed so tend to linger a bit longer (you can outrun them with swiftness so they never hit) however considering clones have 2.4k health a single hit or 2 will kill them off regardless. Put simply I think complaining about clones is a non issue.

Phantasms though is a different story. They have no cap on the number that can be out consecutively which when combined with chrono phantasma, signet of the ether and being able to summon 2 at a time on some weapons/traits we can rapidly end up with 4 phantasms and 3 clones out at the same time creating a visual mess and that’s not including any running to shatter.

Is the solution a cap on phantasms? No, this is the epitome of lazy ideas and here’s why. It means some attacks would not be useable back to back and many phantasms take a few seconds to finish their attacks. Additionally if chrono phantasma was left intact you would be actively punished for wanting to use a skill because you already used a phantasm skill. This wouldn’t fly on any other class, it would be lunacy to suggest a guardians current consecration is removed if they use a new one, that a necromancers well would be removed if they used another one etc.

So what is the solution? Well a redesign of the traits and skills making phantasms lingering around for large amounts of time and being able to be resummoned repeatedly is one way to do it.Another solution would be to completely remove phantasms entirely from the game. Those skills that summon phantasms are replaced with a weapon skill that does damage in a similar way to how or what the phantasm did but instead it leaves behind a single clone. Clones are left intact as a cap of 3 + whatever is being shattered, no one is being arbitrarily punished for wanting to use a skill and mesmers can finally be done with a mechanic that let enemies have double the counter play against the weapon skill.

Don't worry. Non mesmer players seem hell bent on believing that a phantasm cap will somehow fix the class, and Anet will go and listen to them instead of us, and implement a cap without touching CP or SotE.

That's just how the poll framed it. If there were options to change ChronoPhantasma, iDefender/Disenchanter, Signet of the Ether, I suspect there would be different discussions

Not just this poll, even in other threads, and even on the mesmer subforums, I have seen non mesmer players claiming that the only possible solution is a phantasm cap, and some of them wanted a total illusion cap again (which completely defeats the entire point of the rework).

And just like with exhaustion on EM, we were telling ANet that its a pointless nerf and doesn't actually address what is so broken on the trait, but people like this came out of nowhere and started vehemently defending exhaustion on EM as a nerf option, and ANet listened to them.

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No changes to clone cap need to be made as that's still just 3 - nothing has changed in that regard and people aren't having trouble with that. Really wouldn't work with phantasms either as they're essentially just weapon skill and utilities where a destroyable NPC casts the ability for the Mesmer instead of the Mesmer itself. So you'd be in a scenario where the Mesmer can't use a weapon skill until a previous phantasm despawns? The flow of combat for the Mesmer would be horrible - this isn't a great solution. I don't think it would even work actually.

It really is just a problem with Chronophantasma mostly. Completely remove the functionality of that trait and see how things are from there. Then begin to look at other interactions and make small changes to sort things out. Signet of the Ether could probably be changed too.

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I don't think any changes to the clone cap is needed. Once you've changed Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether, Chronomancers will have a natural phantasm cap based on their actual cooldowns. People complain about Mirages being OP (And this might be true), but Mirages don't clog the entire screen in visual noise the way Chronomancer does and it's phantasm output is fine.

At the end of the day Mesmer Phantasms are just the strongest class skills (Since they're usually on the 4 or 5 skill) with fancy delivery systems. The problem comes when one heal skill and one trait literally quadruple their damage output.

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