Placement Matches Are The Issue For Division Trapping - Discussion

[Twyn.7320]

I'm expecting people to say: "Well, you've been carried for 4 Seasons." That's not the case. However, I believe that I may have the answer as to why Silver and Gold players are trapped within their divisions. The issue, for me, is that members of the community are doing their Placement Matches alongside existing Ranked Players. Members of the PvP community who may be Bronze-rated are being matched with Silver and Gold players, as their MMR for Placements begins at 1,200, IIRC. This is creating a very negative atmosphere within PvP, where objectively higher players are stuck within Divisions, due to players who are dropping in MMR, and honestly don't know how to play their class/play the game.

Because of this, they're suffering a large amount of abuse from team members, due to the fact that every player in the match has been told that teams are within '50 rating' of each other. Actually, they could be within 50 rating, but still doing Placement Matches, and they get stomped to pieces and make some teams unplayable. I've had wins and losses where I've seen players that just shouldn't be playing alongside me, both team members and enemies. Unfortunately, the only tangible way to solve this is to re-introduce Team Queue, to allow players to form their own 5-man teams and then determine whether they're the issue or not. The uncertainty of MMR is the leading cause of toxicity, and for the rest of this Season, I believe that players within Placement Matches should be highlighted before the match, and if you lose the game because of it, the rating loss shouldn't be as harsh as if you lose against a full team of rated players.

Also, it'd be nice to know why a 500-100 win gives +13, and a 500-480 loss removes -12, despite being back to back. But baby steps, one step at a time.

[zoopop.5630]

People shouldn’t be freely falling into low plat or close to legendary ....

I’m actually running a test to see how new accounts with solid game understanding gets placed after all 10 games.

So far one account reach plat 2 with 7-3 in placements . Out of those 10 games 2 we’re loses because of an afk but giving me 0 points lost from what I remember. My last one was a lost that gave me -34 points dropping my second account in plat 2 1641. Currently waiting 3 days to play another 5 games to see where it’ll take me.

Working on my second account as we speak and planning to see where I get placed hopefully some time next weekend. If both my alt accounts are able to easily get to plat then I’ll 100% understand why match ups are completely ass and it isn’t match making fault for finding players similar rating.

However my point is clear , if an alt or new account gets carried heavily during their placements and results in dropping into plat that kinda shows Anet being to nice and getting people to be in such high tier after placements .

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"zoopop.5630" said:I’m actually running a test to see how new accounts with solid game understanding gets placed after all 10 games.As I recall, other people have done some similar tests on alt accounts to see if there was consistency in how many matches it took to reach "their level." My recollection is that sometimes people got lucky or unlucky early, but eventually things evened out.

[Uncle Dalty.8327]

@Twyn.7320 said:

Also, it'd be nice to know why a 500-100 win gives +13, and a 500-480 loss removes -12, despite being back to back. But baby steps, one step at a time.

really? my wins regardless of final score usually give me +7 when any loss gives me -28... be grateful lol

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@"Twyn.7320" said:I'm expecting people to say: "Well, you've been carried for 4 Seasons." That's not the case. However, I believe that I may have the answer as to why Silver and Gold players are trapped within their divisions. The issue, for me, is that members of the community are doing their Placement Matches alongside existing Ranked Players. Members of the PvP community who may be Bronze-rated are being matched with Silver and Gold players, as their MMR for Placements begins at 1,200, IIRC. This is creating a very negative atmosphere within PvP, where objectively higher players are stuck within Divisions, due to players who are dropping in MMR, and honestly don't know how to play their class/play the game.

Because of this, they're suffering a large amount of abuse from team members, due to the fact that every player in the match has been told that teams are within '50 rating' of each other. Actually, they could be within 50 rating, but still doing Placement Matches, and they get stomped to pieces and make some teams unplayable. I've had wins and losses where I've seen players that just shouldn't be playing alongside me, both team members and enemies. Unfortunately, the only tangible way to solve this is to re-introduce Team Queue, to allow players to form their own 5-man teams and then determine whether they're the issue or not. The uncertainty of MMR is the leading cause of toxicity, and for the rest of this Season, I believe that players within Placement Matches should be highlighted before the match, and if you lose the game because of it, the rating loss shouldn't be as harsh as if you lose against a full team of rated players.

Also, it'd be nice to know why a 500-100 win gives +13, and a 500-480 loss removes -12, despite being back to back. But baby steps, one step at a time.

It’s clear you don’t understand the league matchmaking or how the skill rating is assigned for win/loss.

Only new accounts have a starting rating of 1200 otherwise every season each accounts starting rating is soft reset.

So let’s set this straight, at the start of every season = Soft reset: (Previous Rating + 1200) * 0.5.

Matches rating gain/loss is based on your Rating vs the Average rating of the Enemy Team and we know that the average difference between two team ratings is Approx +/- 50 Rating, so teams are about even in regards to ratings so they essentially even teams rating wise and Rating gain/loss is in no way determined by the Matches score.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

@zoopop.5630 said:People shouldn’t be freely falling into low plat or close to legendary ....

I’m actually running a test to see how new accounts with solid game understanding gets placed after all 10 games.

So far one account reach plat 2 with 7-3 in placements . Out of those 10 games 2 we’re loses because of an afk but giving me 0 points lost from what I remember. My last one was a lost that gave me -34 points dropping my second account in plat 2 1641. Currently waiting 3 days to play another 5 games to see where it’ll take me.

Working on my second account as we speak and planning to see where I get placed hopefully some time next weekend. If both my alt accounts are able to easily get to plat then I’ll 100% understand why match ups are completely kitten and it isn’t match making fault for finding players similar rating.

However my point is clear , if an alt or new account gets carried heavily during their placements and results in dropping into plat that kinda shows Anet being to nice and getting people to be in such high tier after placements .

I recently finished placements on my alt as well. 10/10 wins and got placed at 1640 rating.I distinctly remember the first 5-ish games as they were absolute clown fiestas from my PoV. And not just builds alone. These people have obviously never played PvP before.

Although I never specifically thought about it ....OP certainly has a point. Now I don't know if 1.2k actually is the default rating. But I have heard about it being so from a lot of people and I think it's safe to assume its somewhere around that general area. Regardless of how accurate that number actually is however, I can see how this would negatively affect people of a skill tier close to that default rating.

[HadrianBlackwater.5736]

They are not necessarily within 50 MMR of each other. That is an average of all matches. TBH I won't totally buy anything they say until they start providing individual MMRs every match. The fact that they do not provide that information makes me skeptical.

[Spoichiche.1290]

@HadrianBlackwater.5736 said:They are not necessarily within 50 MMR of each other. That is an average of all matches. TBH I won't totally buy anything they say until they start providing individual MMRs every match. The fact that they do not provide that information makes me skeptical.

This is not an average of all matches. As stated by BenP, in 95% of matches both teams are within 50 MMR of eachother.

And to get back on topic, the answer as to why Silver and Gold players are trapped within their divisions is pretty simple : this is their skill rating. I've been placed in silver/gold 5 seasons in a row, and always managed to get back in plat1/2 without much trouble. Sure, it's gonna take you 30-50 games, but climbing out of a division where everyone is worse than you is easy.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Spoichiche.1290 said:

@"HadrianBlackwater.5736" said:They are not necessarily within 50 MMR of each other. That is an average of all matches. TBH I won't totally buy anything they say until they start providing individual MMRs every match. The fact that they do not provide that information makes me skeptical.

This is not an average of all matches. As stated by BenP, in 95% of matches both teams are within 50 MMR of eachother.

That was for prime time though... It doesn't work like that for us Aussies.... My games have platinums/golds/silvers and generally have to wait about 4 mins for a match or instant pop and play as a filler.

I complained in a game yesterday about having 4 home against 1 druid, said I'd drop off leaderboards if I lost that match due to them... 1 guy said "No wonder I keep dying I'm only in Gold" and quit the match on the spot.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

Objectiely better? Explain the fact then I placed silver/gold in a few seasons and climbed to plat with ease every single time? Then from plat to legend (harder).

You are not “hard stuck” and thhe system isn’t rigging you as much as you’d like to think.

As usual, it’s people over estimating their own skill. And once again asking to get carried by comp and communication advantage (5 man) vs unorganized and random comps.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

The effect of placement matches get evened out pretty fast after a few games by the MM system. There is no 'division trapping', I climbed from silver, gold to plat t2-t3 very fast in the last 2 seasons (this season I was placed in plat t3 already).

Honestly, the placement matches don't even really make sense now because of this very quick correction (hence the -40-s +30s etc), but that's another story.

As Belzedar said, it's more likely overestimation of their own skill

[Kageseigi.2150]

I'm having issues involving rotations. Just yesterday, I was in a match. I'm a Thief talking to our Ele before the match. I was saying I'd get Home. He asked if he should mess with Far, and I told him I'd decap it when I got the chance. So when the match started, I went Home and he went Mid. The problem is that our other 3 players all rushed Far. The Ele got downed instantly. The rest of the team followed suit quickly. It was a bad, bad match... and it seems to reflect the general nature of my luck this season in solo-q.

Before another match, I was talking with our Mesmer about who would get Home. The Mesmer called it, and I said I'd support Mid to focus on their Necro. Then our Engi said he's going Far. I asked why... he said "routine." Fortunately, the other team must not have had more issues than we did, so we beat them pretty soundly.

Outside of those examples, I've had 4 teammates rush Far in the middle of a match. I've had a teammate just content with dueling between Home and Mid. I've had a teammate stand right outside a decapped Home, and not stand inside the zone to cap it. I've had a teammate chase a Thief around a map complaining that I don't fight it... when I killed it twice before. I've had teams who don't even play for the Bell on Capricorn all match.

It has been quite frustrating, sadly.

[Twyn.7320]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:Objectiely better? Explain the fact then I placed silver/gold in a few seasons and climbed to plat with ease every single time? Then from plat to legend (harder).

You are not “hard stuck” and the system isn’t rigging you as much as you’d like to think.

As usual, it’s people over estimating their own skill. And once again asking to get carried by comp and communication advantage (5 man) vs unorganized and random comps.

This doesn't account for the fact that one player's actions can actually ruin a match against a better team. If one player doesn't know how to play, or rotate, or team-fight, it can be extremely detrimental when the other team has players that are objectively better, and are clearly climbing. Communication is a HUGE issue in lower divisions, with people claiming the abuse/elitism card if you give simple instructions. I'm not claiming that players are hard stuck because of the system, I'm claiming that players are hard stuck because of the players around them. There aren't any variables that affect an increase for individuals. Top Stats do nothing to affect rating gain/loss, only provide additional rewards. Skill Rating, unfortunately in some cases, has nothing to do with 'Individual Rating'. I'm sure this is different in Platinum T2 and above, but in the lower divisions, it's like rolling a dice and hoping that your luck holds until you reach Gold T2.

I'm sure that people over-estimate their own skill. For the longest time, I definitely did, until I discovered how to play. If one player can make up for another player who can't understand the game, then it works, which is why some people can climb and others can't. You can argue: 'Get good' in this case, but in another way: 'What's the point if my role is just to carry crap players?' If you have 3 terrible team members as a duo-queue, you can't carry that, there's an imbalance. That's the crux of the lower divisions, from my experience.

[Egorum.9506]

In lower divisions play glass pugstomper builds and focus on their weaker players, you can turn a 5v5 into a 5v4 or 5v3 pretty easily, which let's your weaker teammates snowball.

That's how you climb

[Miles Smiles.8951]

you will always climb out of your silver/gold if you deserve to

[Bossun.2046]

Since we are comparing placements...

I got 7w-3l on my alt on my placements and ended up in t2 silver. Like wut