How to properly improve core engineer

[Ardid.7203]

@Tehologist.5841 said:

@Bomboed.5697 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:Core Engi needs melee, has only ranged weapons. For the kits the only melee is bomb kit and toolkit.

Not true. Rifle works in melee better than on range. And there is also a Flamethrower kit for melee. And grenades work well in melee.In reality, Core Engi has zero pure long range options. Rifle is better on close range, Pistols are 900m range, and the only long range kit is Grenades, but they are also only 900m range.

Elite specs do not help at all, because both of the provide another option of melee weapon.

Core Engi needs a 1200 range option. And it is better to be a kit, not a weapon, so it be useful with Elite spec weapons. While majority of kits work well in melee it would be okay to rework one of them into a long range option. I've already suggested how it could be done:

Rifle does not count as melee as most of its attacks can be reflected or blocked by skills that work on projectiles. Long range we have elite mortar kit at 1500 range. There is not a single one handed melee option for core engineer, stuck with pistol if want to run a shield or offhand pistol. If someone is running a lot of range hate then we can't switch to offhand weapon or run a melee weapon to deal with it. I wasn't sure about flamethrower attacks if count as projectile or not.

Then the solution is to remove the projectile property from Rifle skills. Then we can continue using it as melee (as intended: using rifle for range is absurd) without having to worry about it killing us with something that shouldn't affect melee. I know it would make rifle more consistent.

[Tehologist.5841]

Would be cool if rifle auto turned into a melee attack when in close range (bayonet?)

[Ardid.7203]

@Tehologist.5841 said:Would be cool if rifle auto turned into a melee attack when in close range (bayonet?)

That would be awesome.

[Dace.8173]

@Ardid.7203 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:

@Bomboed.5697 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:Core Engi needs melee, has only ranged weapons. For the kits the only melee is bomb kit and toolkit.

Not true. Rifle works in melee better than on range. And there is also a Flamethrower kit for melee. And grenades work well in melee.In reality, Core Engi has zero pure long range options. Rifle is better on close range, Pistols are 900m range, and the only long range kit is Grenades, but they are also only 900m range.

Elite specs do not help at all, because both of the provide another option of melee weapon.

Core Engi needs a 1200 range option. And it is better to be a kit, not a weapon, so it be useful with Elite spec weapons. While majority of kits work well in melee it would be okay to rework one of them into a long range option. I've already suggested how it could be done:

Rifle does not count as melee as most of its attacks can be reflected or blocked by skills that work on projectiles. Long range we have elite mortar kit at 1500 range. There is not a single one handed melee option for core engineer, stuck with pistol if want to run a shield or offhand pistol. If someone is running a lot of range hate then we can't switch to offhand weapon or run a melee weapon to deal with it. I wasn't sure about flamethrower attacks if count as projectile or not.

Then the solution is to remove the projectile property from Rifle skills. Then we can continue using it as melee (as intended: using rifle for range is absurd) without having to worry about it killing us with something that shouldn't affect melee. I know it would make rifle more consistent.

That's not a real solution. The rifle is a ranged weapon. It doesn't matter if you think it's absurd for using it for range the weapon has a range of 1200. I have the option of not having to get into melee range in order to use it. Blunderbuss is really the only ability on the weapon that requires close range for it to do its job. The rest of the weapon doesn't require you to be in close range (though Jump Shot will put you into close range .... or out of it, whichever) With that said, Engineer does have options. Jump Shoot and Blunderbuss do not count as projectiles. Flamethrower doesn't count as a projectile and is insanely fun anyway (#2 does). We also have the Bomb Kit, #3 and #4 on the Elixer Gun, Elixer X, Tool Kit, and Pistol #4. So if you find yourself going up against a lot of projectile hate then you can adjust accordingly.

[Dace.8173]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:I've read a lot of wierd ideas recently that don't compute with me but this seams like a good place to share just one of those ideas of my own....

Make turrets a kit....whoa whoa whoa stay with me.

I know sounds kitten but....

Turret kit replaces all weapon skills with turrets as they are now ( Rifle, net, flame, thumper and rocket. 1 to 5.)Healing turret still in healing slot as normal. Only they don't overcharge on deployment anymore. Instead the deployment skill is replaced with the overcharge skill once deployed.

When in turret kit, all toolbelt skills replaced with current turret toolbelt skills.

This means you can jump into the kit to deploy, overcharge or use a toolbelt skill, then you can still use 2 other utilities/kits.

The kit f# would be the detonate skill, detonating all deployed turrets. Sounds craps yeah? Make them all knock back or launch on detonation (not destruction).

Detonating healing turret into it's water field like that would provide multiple blast finisher heals too.

Too much? Too mental?

Does not work. You turn it into a kit and you don't have any actual weapons when you're using it. Turrets are not the worlds strongest weapon, after all. Also, you would be forced to stay in kit mode in order to allow them to remain on the field of battle or to detonate them. One of the balance factors of turrets was that if you wanted to use one you were giving up a Utility slot to do so and to keep it on the battlefield until it was destroyed or you detonated it. If you wanted to run with all the turrets you were pretty much having to give up the use of other abilities. The only way this would even remotely work is to nerf turrets even more than they already are now.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

I don't think you understood what I was saying fully. Once deployed, they will stay deployed even when swapping our of turret kit. The detonate skill is the kit f# ability. Meaning that you can use a weapon or the other utilities whilst turrets are deployed. You would only need to be in the kit to either deploy, overcharge or use the turrets f# skill

[Dace.8173]

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:I don't think you understood what I was saying fully. Once deployed, they will stay deployed even when swapping our of turret kit. The detonate skill is the kit f# ability. Meaning that you can use a weapon or the other utilities whilst turrets are deployed. You would only need to be in the kit to either deploy, overcharge or use the turrets f# skill

I understood exactly what you said which is why I said

One of the balance factors of turrets was that if you wanted to use one you were giving up a Utility slot to do so and to keep it on the battlefield until it was destroyed or you detonated it. If you wanted to run with all the turrets you were pretty much having to give up the use of other abilities. The only way this would even remotely work is to nerf turrets even more than they already are now.

Your method is not balanced. You get all your turrets for the price of one Utility slot? C'mon. The only way your method would work is if they nerfed turrets further. Or they could force you to stay in kit mode in order to keep them deployed thus depriving you of other weapons, as I initially said. However, just popping into turret kit and dropping a bunch of turrets and then popping out is not a feasible idea.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:I've read a lot of wierd ideas recently that don't compute with me but this seams like a good place to share just one of those ideas of my own....

Make turrets a kit....whoa whoa whoa stay with me.

I know sounds kitten but....

Turret kit replaces all weapon skills with turrets as they are now ( Rifle, net, flame, thumper and rocket. 1 to 5.)Healing turret still in healing slot as normal. Only they don't overcharge on deployment anymore. Instead the deployment skill is replaced with the overcharge skill once deployed.

When in turret kit, all toolbelt skills replaced with current turret toolbelt skills.

This means you can jump into the kit to deploy, overcharge or use a toolbelt skill, then you can still use 2 other utilities/kits.

The kit f# would be the detonate skill, detonating all deployed turrets. Sounds craps yeah? Make them all knock back or launch on detonation (not destruction).

Detonating healing turret into it's water field like that would provide multiple blast finisher heals too.

Too much? Too mental?

.....Also, you would be forced to stay in kit mode in order to allow them to remain on the field of battle or to detonate....

This is the bit you mis understood.not everything else mate. Calm down ;)

However you both agree that turrets are weak yet think that they would need a further nerf for this. Turrets are pretty bad in all game modes... with the exception of rifle in SD (only used to toolbelt) and thumper in Conquest.

It was just a thought. CDs et al would need reviewing to maintain balance ofc

[Ardid.7203]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:

@Bomboed.5697 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:Core Engi needs melee, has only ranged weapons. For the kits the only melee is bomb kit and toolkit.

Not true. Rifle works in melee better than on range. And there is also a Flamethrower kit for melee. And grenades work well in melee.In reality, Core Engi has zero pure long range options. Rifle is better on close range, Pistols are 900m range, and the only long range kit is Grenades, but they are also only 900m range.

Elite specs do not help at all, because both of the provide another option of melee weapon.

Core Engi needs a 1200 range option. And it is better to be a kit, not a weapon, so it be useful with Elite spec weapons. While majority of kits work well in melee it would be okay to rework one of them into a long range option. I've already suggested how it could be done:

Rifle does not count as melee as most of its attacks can be reflected or blocked by skills that work on projectiles. Long range we have elite mortar kit at 1500 range. There is not a single one handed melee option for core engineer, stuck with pistol if want to run a shield or offhand pistol. If someone is running a lot of range hate then we can't switch to offhand weapon or run a melee weapon to deal with it. I wasn't sure about flamethrower attacks if count as projectile or not.

Then the solution is to remove the projectile property from Rifle skills. Then we can continue using it as melee (as intended: using rifle for range is absurd) without having to worry about it killing us with something that shouldn't affect melee. I know it would make rifle more consistent.

That's not a real solution.

The rifle is a ranged weapon.

It doesn't matter if you think it's absurd for using it for range the weapon has a range of 1200. I have the option of not having to get into melee range in order to use it. Blunderbuss is really the only ability on the weapon that requires close range for it to do its job. The rest of the weapon doesn't require you to be in close range (though Jump Shot will put you into close range .... or out of it, whichever) With that said, Engineer does have options. Jump Shoot and Blunderbuss do not count as projectiles. Flamethrower doesn't count as a projectile and is insanely fun anyway (#2 does). We also have the Bomb Kit, #3 and #4 on the Elixer Gun, Elixer X, Tool Kit, and Pistol #4. So if you find yourself going up against a lot of projectile hate then you can adjust accordingly.

Sorry to hear you believe that. ¯\(ツ)/¯

[Dace.8173]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:I've read a lot of wierd ideas recently that don't compute with me but this seams like a good place to share just one of those ideas of my own....

Make turrets a kit....whoa whoa whoa stay with me.

I know sounds kitten but....

Turret kit replaces all weapon skills with turrets as they are now ( Rifle, net, flame, thumper and rocket. 1 to 5.)Healing turret still in healing slot as normal. Only they don't overcharge on deployment anymore. Instead the deployment skill is replaced with the overcharge skill once deployed.

When in turret kit, all toolbelt skills replaced with current turret toolbelt skills.

This means you can jump into the kit to deploy, overcharge or use a toolbelt skill, then you can still use 2 other utilities/kits.

The kit f# would be the detonate skill, detonating all deployed turrets. Sounds craps yeah? Make them all knock back or launch on detonation (not destruction).

Detonating healing turret into it's water field like that would provide multiple blast finisher heals too.

Too much? Too mental?

.....Also, you would be forced to stay in kit mode in order to allow them to remain on the field of battle or to detonate....

This is the bit you mis understood.not everything else mate. Calm down ;)

However you both agree that turrets are weak yet think that they would need a further nerf for this. Turrets are pretty bad in all game modes... with the exception of rifle in SD (only used to toolbelt) and thumper in Conquest.

It was just a thought. CDs et al would need reviewing to maintain balance ofc

Again, no I did not. The part you highlighted was in reference to the conditions that would be required to leave them on the battlefield given your setup. To work the way you described without nerfing them it would require you to remain in turret kit mode and deny you other weapon options. I even cleared that up for you when I responded to you a second time.

Your method is not balanced. You get all your turrets for the price of one Utility slot? C'mon. The only way your method would work is if they nerfed turrets further. Or they could force you to stay in kit mode in order to keep them deployed thus depriving you of other weapons, as I initially said. However, just popping into turret kit and dropping a bunch of turrets and then popping out is not a feasible idea.

Yes, turrets are weak. They would be weakened further if you had the ability to carry all of them at once and have them not tie up any of your other abilities. That goes well beyond CDs. There is a reason this wasn't done in the first place. A lot of it has to do with the fact that in order to gain the benefits of a kit you have to remain in that kit's mode.

@Ardid.7203 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:

@Bomboed.5697 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:Core Engi needs melee, has only ranged weapons. For the kits the only melee is bomb kit and toolkit.

Not true. Rifle works in melee better than on range. And there is also a Flamethrower kit for melee. And grenades work well in melee.In reality, Core Engi has zero pure long range options. Rifle is better on close range, Pistols are 900m range, and the only long range kit is Grenades, but they are also only 900m range.

Elite specs do not help at all, because both of the provide another option of melee weapon.

Core Engi needs a 1200 range option. And it is better to be a kit, not a weapon, so it be useful with Elite spec weapons. While majority of kits work well in melee it would be okay to rework one of them into a long range option. I've already suggested how it could be done:

Rifle does not count as melee as most of its attacks can be reflected or blocked by skills that work on projectiles. Long range we have elite mortar kit at 1500 range. There is not a single one handed melee option for core engineer, stuck with pistol if want to run a shield or offhand pistol. If someone is running a lot of range hate then we can't switch to offhand weapon or run a melee weapon to deal with it. I wasn't sure about flamethrower attacks if count as projectile or not.

Then the solution is to remove the projectile property from Rifle skills. Then we can continue using it as melee (as intended: using rifle for range is absurd) without having to worry about it killing us with something that shouldn't affect melee. I know it would make rifle more consistent.

That's not a real solution.

The rifle is a ranged weapon.

It doesn't matter if you think it's absurd for using it for range the weapon has a range of 1200. I have the option of not having to get into melee range in order to use it. Blunderbuss is really the only ability on the weapon that requires close range for it to do its job. The rest of the weapon doesn't require you to be in close range (though Jump Shot will put you into close range .... or out of it, whichever) With that said, Engineer does have options. Jump Shoot and Blunderbuss do not count as projectiles. Flamethrower doesn't count as a projectile and is insanely fun anyway (#2 does). We also have the Bomb Kit, #3 and #4 on the Elixer Gun, Elixer X, Tool Kit, and Pistol #4. So if you find yourself going up against a lot of projectile hate then you can adjust accordingly.

Sorry to hear you believe that. ¯\

(ツ)

/¯

Three of its abilities work at 1200. None of those three get better when you get closer. One ability works at 800. One works at 700 but gets better as you get closer. Until they buffed it a bit it could be said not to be a ranged weapon. But now that it has three abilities that work at 100% efficiency at 1200 and getting closer in no way improves how well they work and only one ability that needs you to be close to be truly effective it is pretty much a long-range weapon and can and is used as such. As a matter of fact, Engineer Rifle has just as many 1200 abilities as Deadeye Rifle. Deadeye's #4 is a movement based ability like Jump Shot though instead of moving you into close combat it moves you out of it and #5 is an ability to increases your range. It meets the games qualifications for a ranged weapon, doesn't really matter what other people opt to call it. Even if you don't count its long-range ability it still falls within the range of pistol weapons. There is no melee rifle or pistol. It would only be logical to remove projectile quality if you decreased the range of the Rifle to the range that most melee weapons have, not that of any form of ranged weapon, whether we are talking bows, pistols, or other rifles. So long as you can use it at 1200 it will always be considered ranged.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

most of these are fine, but:

• Hip Shot: increase the damage by 30%. The rifles' damage is very mediocre and it needs to be increased.lol• Most of them are fine and don't need that much changing. Some gadgets are obviously better than others when it comes to PvP, but for the most part they are fine.so fine they are never used• Tranquilizer Dart: increase the bleeding damage by 80% and increase the weakness duration from 1 second to 2 seconds.• Fumigate: increase the damage by 50% and increase the poison duration from 2 seconds to 8 seconds.nearly perma weakness and poison? uh no• Orbital Command: increase the Mortat Kits' projectile velocity by 50%.I feel like out of all of your explosives changes, that's the first and maybe only one that should be baseline

[Josif.2015]

The Tool Kit's damage increase and turret repair increase from the Power Wrench trait was replaced with an elite skill cooldown reduction by 3 seconds every time you dodge, regardless if you're in combat or not. Turns out, the damage increase is still present for both the auto attack and Pry Bar. You can still see the glowing blue numbers when you have the trait enabled. The only thing that was officially removed was the turret repair increase, even though it's displayed on the tooltip, it still repairs turrets for 5%.

Auto attack without Power Wrench: https://imgur.com/a/VDGmOmcAuto attack with Power Wrench: https://imgur.com/a/V5RNlhHPry Bar without Power Wrench: https://imgur.com/a/g0MgrZDPry Bar with Power Wrench: https://imgur.com/a/gPLSdYy

[Lonami.2987]

Few simple changes that could help, in my opinion. Not getting into numbers:

• Make kits use ammunition, so they eventually run out, like elementalist conjures. Make them stronger in exchange.
• Add weapon swap.
• Give core engineer main-hand mace, and off-hand torch.
• Redesign rifle for long-range combat.

If you want to take it further, some more complex ideas here, including whole redesigns.

[Biff.5312]

If they made these changes, I'd be in danger of never playing my non-engineer toons again.

[Josif.2015]

@Lonami.2987 said:

• Make kits use ammunition, so they eventually run out, like elementalist conjures. Make them stronger in exchange.

This might be a better addition for the pistols rather than the kits.

• Add weapon swap.

Not so sure about this one. It's not like engineer needs a weapon swap because it already has multiple kits that act like weapon swaps.

• Give core engineer main-hand mace, and off-hand torch.

The closest thing that engineer has to a melee weapon is the Tool Kit. Too bad the auto attack is so slow and it applies cripple for some unexplained reason, even though the kit already has a skill that applies cripple. An off hand torch is basically the off hand pistol with Blowtorch which the skill is fine as it is, just increase the range of the burning stacks.

• Redesign rifle for long-range combat.

The rifle already fits in that category. Overcharged Shot was buffed in the season 13 balance patch so I don't think that it needs any more buffs considering that holosmith is doing just fine, if not more than fine with it.

Also, in your post about the whole replacing tool belt with kits idea, I'm not so sure about that. I don't see that ever being implemented and I prefer if it stays the way it is. The problem with core engineer is that the kits and the toolbelt skills are very lackluster, at least when compared to holosmith who doesn't need kits to be effective. Like I've said many times in my suggested changes list, there needs to be more traits that are focused around kits rather than being general traits that the holosmith can take advantage of. See the Iron Blooded trait suggestion in Alchemy to see what I mean.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Hoodie.1045 said:The problem with core engineer is that the kits and the toolbelt skills are very lackluster, at least when compared to holosmith who doesn't need kits to be effective. Like I've said many times in my suggested changes list, there needs to be more traits that are focused around kits rather than being general traits that the holosmith can take advantage of. See the Iron Blooded trait suggestion in Alchemy to see what I mean.

Why do you think that is? Having the ability to slot 5 kits means each kit can't have as much utility in them. And since engineer doesn't have weapon swap, the kit has to supplant both a second weapon set and a utility skill. Adding traits that are focused around kits wouldn't really solve the holosmith issue. It would just mean holosmiths would start using kits if those traits were good enough to replace the other traits. For instance, if your iron blooded suggestion was implemented then I would run elixir gun on my holo because the 10% damage reduction without requiring boon application would outweigh the cd reduction from HGH. There needs to be a separation of mechanics, which elite toolbelts provide to some extent, but not enough to have a significant effect.

If kits were on the f bar then core engineer would have the same benefit that holosmith has of being able to swap to a melee/range weapon set without using up a utility slot. If the number of kits was limited then more utility can be put into each kit so that they don't feel so lackluster. I found 2 kit builds feel about right. Any more than that and it feels a little clunky for the PvP modes. I have suggested removing the healing/elite toolbelt skills and replacing them with kits. From here kits could be buffed/reworked to include more relevant skills and foster synergy. Holosmith would be locked to photon forge meaning they would only have access to one core kit. For balance purposes photon forge could be toned down and overheat adjusted since holosmith would essentially be gaining another utility slot. This would mean less face rolling by camping photon forge and more swapping in and out of kit, weapon, and PF which would bring holosmith closer to the core engineer play style.

This would be a good opportunity to fix core engineer's utilities as well. Moving kits to the f bar would free up 5 utility skills, then three skills from the other families could be removed/added to a new family. My picks: elixir c, flame turret, and throw mine. This would free up space for two additional utility families, governed by explosives and firearms, which means more interesting core traits. My picks would be mines/traps (explosives) and ammunition (firearms). With these changes, core engineer would have 5 specializations governing 5 utility families, and a relevant profession mechanic which all other classes already have. Core engineer would also get a more interesting elite skill to replace mortar kit.

[Josif.2015]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:The problem with core engineer is that the kits and the toolbelt skills are very lackluster, at least when compared to holosmith who doesn't need kits to be effective. Like I've said many times in my suggested changes list, there needs to be more traits that are focused around kits rather than being general traits that the holosmith can take advantage of. See the Iron Blooded trait suggestion in Alchemy to see what I mean.

If kits were on the f bar then core engineer would have the same benefit that holosmith has of being able to swap to a melee/range weapon set without using up a utility slot. If the number of kits was limited then more utility can be put into each kit so that they don't feel so lackluster. I found 2 kit builds feel about right. Any more than that and it feels a little clunky for the PvP modes. I have suggested removing the healing/elite toolbelt skills and replacing them with kits. From here kits could be buffed/reworked to include more relevant skills and foster synergy. Holosmith would be locked to photon forge meaning they would only have access to one core kit. For balance purposes photon forge could be toned down and overheat adjusted since holosmith would essentially be gaining another utility slot. This would mean less face rolling by camping photon forge and more swapping in and out of kit, weapon, and PF which would bring holosmith closer to the core engineer play style.

This would be a good opportunity to fix core engineer's utilities as well. Moving kits to the f bar would free up 5 utility skills, then three skills from the other families could be removed/added to a new family. My picks: elixir c, flame turret, and throw mine. This would free up space for two additional utility families, governed by explosives and firearms, which means more interesting core traits. My picks would be mines/traps (explosives) and ammunition (firearms). With these changes, core engineer would have 5 specializations governing 5 utility families, and a relevant profession mechanic which all other classes already have. Core engineer would also get a more interesting elite skill to replace mortar kit.

Now that you brought this up, you do make a good point. Photon Forge is a toolbelt skill and it allows the holosmith to still use kits if they wanted to without sacrificing a utility skill slot. It's a great idea, but I wonder just how long this would take to rework.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@"Hoodie.1045" said:Now that you brought this up, you do make a good point. Photon Forge is a toolbelt skill and it allows the holosmith to still use kits if they wanted to without sacrificing a utility skill slot. It's a great idea, but I wonder just how long this would take to rework.

Well a change like this would mean adding 8 new skills, and reworking/tweaking 7 kits. I would also say core engineer needs an alternate main hand weapon. Overall thats 46 skills that need to be looked at on top of any trait changes. Its not a small task. However, if Weaver can get 48 completely new skills I think its within the realm of reason that engi could get 8 new skills and kit reworks.

In the end its up to the devs and management to determine if changes like this is worth the effort for what would be considered "free" content. However, it is also up to us as the community to tell them what we want. Personally, I think it is worth the effort to make these changes. Making core content more enjoyable is how you get F2P players to buy the expansions, and long term players to stay. Having a well thought our core profession means better elite specs moving forward.

[Dace.8173]

@"Lonami.2987" said:Few simple changes that could help, in my opinion. Not getting into numbers:

• Make kits use ammunition, so they eventually run out, like elementalist conjures. Make them stronger in exchange.
• Add weapon swap.
• Give core engineer main-hand mace, and off-hand torch.
• Redesign rifle for long-range combat.

If you want to take it further, some more complex ideas here, including whole redesigns.

Adding a weapon swap fixes nothing. We have kits that serve that purpose. So long as we have kits we aren't getting a weapon swap. However, we shouldn't give up kits. It not only makes Engineer unique but also fun. Our kits give us more flexibility than we would ever have with a weapon swap. Now, to be clear, I'm not stating that all is well with how kits work. What I'm saying, however, is that instead of focusing so much on weapon swap we should focus on kits being addressed so that they are better balanced and more useful. Additionally, a weapon swap based on the weapons we have is meaningless and it is highly unlikely we'd get more weapons anyway. That's a can of worms they are not likely going to open due to the hassle it would be and the player requests for more weapons from other players. Sometimes it's just easier to say no to everyone than to have to deal with unruly customers. Improve kit play and interaction, though, and weapon swap is rendered moot.

Also, I'm not giving up my Flamethrower and Elixer Gun for you guys. :p

Also, as @Hoodie.1045 pointed out, Rifle is already serving that purpose. There isn't much you can do to make it more long range than to give it the extreme range that Ranger gets with their longbow or Deadeye when kneeling with their rifle. Three of the weapon's attacks can hit people at 1200, Hip Shot, Net Shot, and Overcharge Shot. I get how Hip Shot makes it look like you are actually firing a shotgun but the expletive deleted thing hits at 1200. Net Shot is a solid ability, especially if you pair it with Overcharge Shot to knock someone to the ground and then net them (use it all the time in PvP actually). If you are in a sticky situation you can forgo using something like Gatorade U for stability and send yourself flying back and them flying away. This can be done at 1200 btw. Which brings us to Blunderbuss and Jump Shot. Blunderbuss working as a close-range attack is actually pretty good. Now we have long-range options and a nice short range option. If someone gets in your face then just let them have it. Jump Shot is also pretty good as is. It's one of the better movement abilities that Engineer has. It does more landing damage than Rocket Boots and unlike Rocket Boots, if you are using it to escape you are still doing damage to people. Paired together they offer a lot of mobility, what with Rocket Boots removing movement impairing conditions and all.

Seriously, aside from changing the animation of Hip Shot so that you are firing the weapon in the fashion of a traditional long range rifle, such as Deadeye and Warrior, what would you add to it to make it more long-range? I also happen to agree with @Hoodie.1045 about your other changes. I really don't want to see Engineer completely redesigned because what we have now is pretty great. What I want to see are the aspects that we have fine-tuned so that they work better. Addressing the traits, as has been suggested, is moving in the right direction that allows us to keep what a lot of us love and improving overall playability.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:The problem with core engineer is that the kits and the toolbelt skills are very lackluster, at least when compared to holosmith who doesn't need kits to be effective. Like I've said many times in my suggested changes list, there needs to be more traits that are focused around kits rather than being general traits that the holosmith can take advantage of. See the Iron Blooded trait suggestion in Alchemy to see what I mean.

Why do you think that is? Having the ability to slot 5 kits means each kit can't have as much utility in them. And since engineer doesn't have weapon swap, the kit has to supplant both a second weapon set and a utility skill. Adding traits that are focused around kits wouldn't really solve the holosmith issue. It would just mean holosmiths would start using kits if those traits were good enough to replace the other traits. For instance, if your iron blooded suggestion was implemented then I would run elixir gun on my holo because the 10% damage reduction without requiring boon application would outweigh the cd reduction from HGH. There needs to be a separation of mechanics, which elite toolbelts provide to some extent, but not enough to have a significant effect.

If kits were on the f bar then core engineer would have the same benefit that holosmith has of being able to swap to a melee/range weapon set without using up a utility slot. If the number of kits was limited then more utility can be put into each kit so that they don't feel so lackluster. I found 2 kit builds feel about right. Any more than that and it feels a little clunky for the PvP modes. I have suggested removing the healing/elite toolbelt skills and replacing them with kits. From here kits could be buffed/reworked to include more relevant skills and foster synergy. Holosmith would be locked to photon forge meaning they would only have access to one core kit. For balance purposes photon forge could be toned down and overheat adjusted since holosmith would essentially be gaining another utility slot. This would mean less face rolling by camping photon forge and more swapping in and out of kit, weapon, and PF which would bring holosmith closer to the core engineer play style.

This would be a good opportunity to fix core engineer's utilities as well. Moving kits to the f bar would free up 5 utility skills, then three skills from the other families could be removed/added to a new family. My picks: elixir c, flame turret, and throw mine. This would free up space for two additional utility families, governed by explosives and firearms, which means more interesting core traits. My picks would be mines/traps (explosives) and ammunition (firearms). With these changes, core engineer would have 5 specializations governing 5 utility families, and a relevant profession mechanic which all other classes already have. Core engineer would also get a more interesting elite skill to replace mortar kit.

I can see this working but honestly, I don't think we need to do kits, in the fashion that Revenant works. I think having the Healing F skill is useful and is a great way of adding additional benefits to our healing skills. When I'm running with Healing Turret I actually like the fact that in a pinch I can get a fast boost to my health, especially if my turret is on cooldown. Instead, giving up the Elite F skill would work better. This allows them to further improve the kits without running into the problem of having to balance any given kit against Holosmith's already strong abilities. If you are playing Holosmith then Photon Forge is your weapon swap. If they do both Elite and Healing then whatever we got in that regard would always have to be balanced against Holosmith. I love Holosmith but I don't want to see it ruin core Engineer either. This would also mean that in the future they could do more Elites that are similar to Photon Forge in functionality without having to rebalance all our kits again.

The only thing that is left is to improve Tool Kit so that it satisfies peoples desire to have a more melee based weapon swap. It also might be fair to add an additional melee based kit so that you have two rangish kits (Flamethrower and Elixer Gun), two explosive based kits (Bomb and Grenades), and then two melee kits (Tool kit and ..... I don't know dual wielding two crowbars? I admit a second melee kit that fits the Engineer theme would need some work).

I think that adjustment to your idea would provide stronger results.

Edit: I forgot to make mention of the Healing Kit but in the proposed set up Healing Kit could remain as a Heal skill and need not be slotted into our F5. There really isn't a logical reason to give up a weapon swap into a heal. Mortar Kit would also remain as an Elite. This would mean that Holosmith gains access to a Kit swap but it's an Elite and so I don't see that being too big of an issue. Also, I suppose one could dual wield screwdrivers like daggers. That would be cute.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Dace.8173 said:I can see this working but honestly, I don't think we need to do kits, in the fashion that Revenant works. I think having the Healing F skill is useful and is a great way of adding additional benefits to our healing skills. When I'm running with Healing Turret I actually like the fact that in a pinch I can get a fast boost to my health, especially if my turret is on cooldown. Instead, giving up the Elite F skill would work better. This allows them to further improve the kits without running into the problem of having to balance any given kit against Holosmith's already strong abilities. If you are playing Holosmith then Photon Forge is your weapon swap. If they do both Elite and Healing then whatever we got in that regard would always have to be balanced against Holosmith. I love Holosmith but I don't want to see it ruin core Engineer either. This would also mean that in the future they could do more Elites that are similar to Photon Forge in functionality without having to rebalance all our kits again.

The only thing that is left is to improve Tool Kit so that it satisfies peoples desire to have a more melee based weapon swap. It also might be fair to add an additional melee based kit so that you have two rangish kits (Flamethrower and Elixer Gun), two explosive based kits (Bomb and Grenades), and then two melee kits (Tool kit and ..... I don't know dual wielding two crowbars? I admit a second melee kit that fits the Engineer theme would need some work).

I think that adjustment to your idea would provide stronger results.

I suggested removing the healing toolbelt as well, since limiting the number of kits to 1 is not a popular opinion. Also you are not losing much by removing the healing toolbelt since you could always run medkit in its place. Seemed like a fair trade to me. Its true, if holosmith could still use kits, kits would still need to be balanced around photon forge, but not to the extent that they are now. Photon forge could be toned down if holosmiths were given an essentially free kit and and they would still miss out on any core kit synergies which provides a reason to run core.

[Dace.8173]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Dace.8173 said:I can see this working but honestly, I don't think we need to do kits, in the fashion that Revenant works. I think having the Healing F skill is useful and is a great way of adding additional benefits to our healing skills. When I'm running with Healing Turret I actually like the fact that in a pinch I can get a fast boost to my health, especially if my turret is on cooldown. Instead, giving up the Elite F skill would work better. This allows them to further improve the kits without running into the problem of having to balance any given kit against Holosmith's already strong abilities. If you are playing Holosmith then Photon Forge is your weapon swap. If they do both Elite and Healing then whatever we got in that regard would always have to be balanced against Holosmith. I love Holosmith but I don't want to see it ruin core Engineer either. This would also mean that in the future they could do more Elites that are similar to Photon Forge in functionality without having to rebalance all our kits again.

The only thing that is left is to improve Tool Kit so that it satisfies peoples desire to have a more melee based weapon swap. It also might be fair to add an additional melee based kit so that you have two rangish kits (Flamethrower and Elixer Gun), two explosive based kits (Bomb and Grenades), and then two melee kits (Tool kit and ..... I don't know dual wielding two crowbars? I admit a second melee kit that fits the Engineer theme would need some work).

I think that adjustment to your idea would provide stronger results.

I suggested removing the healing toolbelt as well, since limiting the number of kits to 1 is not a popular opinion. Also you are not losing much by removing the healing toolbelt since you could always run medkit in its place. Seemed like a fair trade to me. Its true, if holosmith could still use kits, kits would still need to be balanced around photon forge, but not to the extent that they are now. Photon forge could be toned down if holosmiths were given an essentially free kit and and they would still miss out on any core kit synergies which provides a reason to run core.

The problem here though is that Holosmith will always determine how strong our kits are. That shouldn't be the case. This problem would be replicated if they ever used the Photon Forge mechanic again, only now the kits have to be balanced against Photon Forge and a new Photon Forge X. This would mean that kits would need to be rebalanced to satisfy two Elites and we would risk losing overall strength and functionality. I do not see it as fair to ask people who love Core to have to have Core watered down to satisfy two Elites at once. I get how limiting our kits to one isn't a popular idea and I admit I wouldn't be 100% thrilled with only one kit but in the name of improving Core, it would be a sacrifice that I'd see as reasonable. This would also mean that future uses of the Photon Forge mechanic wouldn't always impact our kits. With just the one kit moving forward new Elites wouldn't need to have that concern. I think if the Kits were stronger and more useful then people would eventually be fine with only one Kit. Additionally, I don't think running the Med Kit is a fair substitute for having the Healing F skill. It would never be able to replace all the different ways the Healing F skill benefits us. It would also mean that to gain the benefits we used to have with the Healing F skill we would have to give up offensive firepower. That's fine if you're running Med Kit because you're wanting to be a Healer but is not ok if you are running a Condi or DPS build.

If Holosmith wanted a Kit swap they would have the option of Mortar Kit and Med Kit but the other kits being off limits I think is a fair trade off in the name of improving Core and making it more compelling. I also think that just one kit makes the task more reasonable. Developers would be able to focus just on the kits and making those kits useful for Core, and Scrapper actually, and not have to worry about touching or changing Holosmith much. With just one Kit skill future changes to either Kits or Holosmith won't force a rebalance of both. This means that both can be independently fine-tuned to adapt to the current meta. You want to make Engineer Condi builds stronger but you don't want to overpower Holosmith then you can fix Flamethrower and Elixer Gun and not have to even touch Holosmith. Holosmith is proving too strong in the current meta? You adjust Holosmith and Core Engineer remains unchanged by the adjustments. I think Photon Forge is a great display of the one kit option in action. I don't encounter very many Holosmiths running additional Kits. I typically see that from Scrappers and Core. Photon Forge, on its own, is actually powerful enough to highlight the potential strength of just access to one kit.

[Opopanax.1803]

@Dace.8173 said:

The only thing that is left is to improve Tool Kit so that it satisfies peoples desire to have a more melee based weapon swap. It also might be fair to add an additional melee based kit so that you have two rangish kits (Flamethrower and Elixer Gun), two explosive based kits (Bomb and Grenades), and then two melee kits (Tool kit and ..... I don't know dual wielding two crowbars? I admit a second melee kit that fits the Engineer theme would need some work).

Tool kit does need help, but core still lacks a melee weapon as well as a power based MH weapon. If you are running a power build and want to run shield, you are SOL and have to use Condi Pistol with it... that is not good design.

I would rather they take all utility kits and have you slot them on the character equipment page in the second weapon slot. That forces you to pick what you want for weapons and utility kits up to a maximum of 2. You can still have healing kit and elite kit on your normal bar.

[Tehologist.5841]

Kits are not weapon slots anymore than warrior rampage is or norn racial elites. They require to give up a utility slot and are completely optional. Should be able to run hammer scrapper and rifle, core should have a single handed melee option. If they won’t do that, then weapon swap should change the weapon we are using skills to melee or ranged. Pistol can morph into daggers, rifle can morph into great sword or staff.

[Dace.8173]

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

The only thing that is left is to improve Tool Kit so that it satisfies peoples desire to have a more melee based weapon swap. It also might be fair to add an additional melee based kit so that you have two rangish kits (Flamethrower and Elixer Gun), two explosive based kits (Bomb and Grenades), and then two melee kits (Tool kit and ..... I don't know dual wielding two crowbars? I admit a second melee kit that fits the Engineer theme would need some work).

Tool kit does need help, but core still lacks a melee weapon as well as a power based MH weapon. If you are running a power build and want to run shield, you are SOL and have to use Condi Pistol with it... that is not good design.

I would rather they take all utility kits and have you slot them on the character equipment page in the second weapon slot. That forces you to pick what you want for weapons and utility kits up to a maximum of 2. You can still have healing kit and elite kit on your normal bar.

Well, I'm not trying to say that Core Engineer doesn't need more weapons, such as a main hand melee power weapon. However, if they haven't added it after six years I find it unlikely they are going to do it now (I'm pretty sure they're on record as stating that additional weapons would be through Elites only). I also think they just don't want to open that can of worms of providing professions more weapons in the Core builds. While some folks would accept the need for Engineer (and Revenant) having additional weapons they will have a side of their customer base that feels like they are lacking too (even people with OP builds complain about how things don't work, after all). It sucks but from a purely business POV it is easier and wiser, to say no to all than to have to justify yes to one or two. Gamers, as a customer base, have not displayed the kind of traits that lead one to believe that they would accept such a thing. Still, if we had two melee based kits one could be set up to support power builds and one could be set up to support condi builds. It's not a perfect solution but I feel it's one that would have a stronger chance of working than the additional weapon request.

Slotting them into your Weapon slot is an interesting approach but I feel that an F5 skill is more practical. We know

@Tehologist.5841 said:Kits are not weapon slots anymore than warrior rampage is or norn racial elites. They require to give up a utility slot and are completely optional. Should be able to run hammer scrapper and rifle, core should have a single handed melee option. If they won’t do that, then weapon swap should change the weapon we are using skills to melee or ranged. Pistol can morph into daggers, rifle can morph into great sword or staff.

If they aren't willing to add additional weapons a weapon morph is even more unlikely, in application it is just a weapon swap in another form. So long as we have Kits we simply are not going to get a weapon swap. It's a non-starter and no matter how many times people say it, it will never happen. I think the ideas that change the Kits into an F5 mechanic like Photon Forge is a reasonable fix though that ANet might be convinced to go for. Kits were intended to be our weapon swap and make up for the lack of it. If Kits were stronger there honestly wouldn't be much of an issue. Kits weren't a bad idea and were a great way to give Engineer a set of weapons that were unique to them and also fit the idea of an Engineer.

I always lean towards options that have an actual chance of being met as opposed to options that they are extremely unlikely to do. Weapon swap and additional weapons, sadly, fall into the extremely unlikely category. Fixing Kits though, that's a possibility. They displayed with the attempted Herald fix that they are willing to take a look at how the mechanics already given to us can be improved. Thus if we unified behind a set of ideas that they are more inclined to work with I think we'd get somewhere.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@"Tehologist.5841" said:Kits are not weapon slots anymore than warrior rampage is or norn racial elites. They require to give up a utility slot and are completely optional. Should be able to run hammer scrapper and rifle, core should have a single handed melee option. If they won’t do that, then weapon swap should change the weapon we are using skills to melee or ranged. Pistol can morph into daggers, rifle can morph into great sword or staff.

Kits are not weapons, but they are the closest thing engineer gets to a weapon swap. Engineer probably doesn't have weapon swap because Anet ran out of development time for weapon skills during launch when they had to make all the kits and toolbelt skills, and deemed them good enough to supplant a second weapon like attunements for elementalist. Unfortunately, unlike elementalist, we have to slot the kits into our utility bar which could be used for gadgets, elixirs, or turrets. You say kits are optional, but 3-4 kits are required for engineer to hit dps benchmarks for PvE. In PvP you can certainly run no kits, but you are handicapping yourself by not taking a weapon swap. Swapping in and out of melee/range is important to be competitive and at the very least a second weapon/kit provides additonal utility in the form of mobility or damage mitigation.

How is what you are suggesting with weapons "morphing" any different than just giving engineer those core weapons (dagger, GS, staff) and adding a weapon swap? I don't like the idea of adding a second weapon because it would undermine kits even more so than they already are. Kits are already underpowered in their current state. Adding a second weapon means a whole new weapon set that kits need to be balanced around.

@Dace.8173 said:The problem here though is that Holosmith will always determine how strong our kits are. That shouldn't be the case.I don't think this is entirely true. Photon forge may effect kit strength to some extent, but I think the real issue is the fact that we can run 5 kits at the same time. Looking at this from a balance perspective, there is only so much utility (blocks, mobility, burst, cleanse, combos, cc) you can add to a build before it becomes overpowered. This means these utility skills must be distributed among all the kits. Elite specs can and should be balanced according to their cores not the other way around. Photon forge can always be toned down if the core class received a buff that also affects holosmith.

@Dace.8173 said:I think if the Kits were stronger and more useful then people would eventually be fine with only one Kit.It certainly may satisfy some people. However, a lot of players would miss the play style that comes with running multiple kits, myself included. Try playing rifle holosmith with elixir gun to get an idea of the game play i'm shooting for. There are so much synergy between these three sets that makes it very fun to play. Imagine a build centered around tool kit and bomb kit. Bomb kit for close range dps, and toolkit for damage mitigation and a pull to bring them back in range of bombs. You can technically play this build now and have access to that synergy, but you have to use two utility slots. Net turret is probably the best for the last utility, but now you have no condi cleanse or break stuns. Having kits on the utility bar feels unnecessarily constricting and moving them to the f bar would give core engineer some much needed breathing room when designing a build.

@Dace.8173 said:Additionally, I don't think running the Med Kit is a fair substitute for having the Healing F skill. It would never be able to replace all the different ways the Healing F skill benefits us. It would also mean that to gain the benefits we used to have with the Healing F skill we would have to give up offensive firepower. That's fine if you're running Med Kit because you're wanting to be a Healer but is not ok if you are running a Condi or DPS build.

Lets take a look at what you remove by taking out the healing f skills.

Toss Elixir H: 2s of protection, 4s of regeneration, and 4s of vigor on a 25s CD. This is comparable to medkit's infusion bomb which is 10s of swiftness, 10s of regeneration, 10s of vigor, and a blast finisher on a 30s CD. The protection could either be added to this skill or to a skill in elixir gun.

Regenerating Mists: 6s of regen and a water field that lasts for 1s on a 21s CD. This is comparable to medkit's cleansing field that creates a 3s waterfield that pulses condi cleanse on a 15s CD.

Bandage Self: This skill was only implemented to give you an actual healing skill when running medkit. There doesn't need to be a replacement for this skill since you could just run a different healing skill like healing turret and still have access to medkit.

Static Shock: Medkit can't really replace this skill, but I think freeing up a utility slot makes up for using this skill. You can now take thumper turret, personal battering ram, or throw mine in the slot where a kit would have been.

Overall the healing F skills are not great skills, and you are not losing much by removing them. I don't think a pure dps build would care that much for losing these skills, and I think they would welcome the freedom to take elixir u/b or some other dps utility (ammunition maybe?).

Designing a build is about changing out skills for what is needed. A high dps build for PvE party content would run only dps kits because they depend on the party for additional support. A WvW roamer/sPvP build would likely run one kit for defense and the other kit for offensive dps or control. Zerg WvW builds might run all defensive/support kits (medkit/elixir gun) depending on the role they are trying to fill.