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Is 1-3-1 the optimal strategy?


MarshallLaw.9260
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As it's about mid-season I've found myself occasionally falling to Gold2 and trying to climb out has some times been tricky. I am in no way the best PvPer but I'd like to think I at least have some idea about what I'm doing.I've generally been of the opinion that the 1-3-1 opening is the optimal providing you have the right team comp for it and in higher tiers it's been fairly successful. However I've found in Gold1 or 2 people seem to be confused by it and blame the far runner for their mistakes..

Example - ran a couple of matches on warrior. On most maps I can make it to far node before it's capped at the start and contest it either preventing the cap for some time and disengaging or winning 1v1 and capping. The rest of my team - 1 heads home to cap, 3 go mid to teamfight. The home capper is expected to join mid fight at the earliest possible opportunity, or if they have to fight on home point, ensure it's held or contested. Mid team is either 3v4 or 3v3. If 3v4, they need to play defensively until either home or far capper comes to support. Mid node should be contested but can be given up to prevent deaths.What I'm finding is that the 3 mid team seems to yolo bomb mid risking an early wipe. I often take the far point and head to mid but by this point there's no use as the whole mid team have been take out. I face a overload of 2 or 3 v1 and usually cannot outmatch them.

My question is this - is 1-3-1 opener generally considered the most common/most effective strategy as it involves contesting all 3 points from the start? I have struggled to ever rise past plat2 so would be interested to know if this strat was widely used in higher tiers.

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I think with solo players that are complete strangers 1 home and 4 middle is the best on average and Im all about playing the percentages with strangers. When you send 1 to far unless they send 1 to your home point what happens is you have a 4v3 in the middle for at least 30 seconds and you will most likely lose that fight if the players are of equal skill level and things will get bad from there for the team that lost mid fight if the winners rotate properly. With 1-3-1 to be comfortable with that I have to know the skill levels of everyone and have a comp that is at least semi reasonable to make it work.

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I’d say for opener you want 1.5-3.5-0.5.

I’ll explain. At least one person needs to cap home but one of the mid fighters should be able to quickly head off to plus one whoever is at home. Functionally they should be playing defensively so they can support home as needed.

The other three should be at mid and playing offensively to try and win the point.

When the enemy caps their home then one of the mid fighters should push far if the mid fight is going well—assuming they can safely assume the add won’t tip the scales. Ideally, this person would be able to 1v1 the add, so even a fight at far won’t be terrible and you can likely get the decap.

Where it goes if the team fight goes poorly is another matter but, going “far” with one person at the start can also mean you let them cap and then sneak a decap 10 seconds later. Functionally you don’t have to cap the point in that circumstance and can quickly return to support the team fight at mid.

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The optimal opening regardless of anything else (in solo q) is 1 and 4. The reason is snowballing from the mid fight is the largest factor for winning or losing in these games.

The more organized the teams are, the more viable other strategies become, and the ability of a team to adjust to a loss in mid is the second largest factor. All imo of course.

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In higher tiers, 1/3/1 is still the "preferable" split, but if often can't be done optimally due to a number of reasons. Players who insist on repeatedly pushing 1/3/1 will top out at hovering around gold 3ish high plat 1ish. What brings you past that hump is being able to see the game differently and it's a simple matter of:

  • Fully understanding the current meta and patching.
  • Being able to size up the capabilities of your team comp vs. the other team comp.
  • Interpreting where enemies will go on the initial split and adjusting your team's initial split to counter their split or at least engage them on equal grounds.

So let me toss a couple case examples. Let's consider all of the players are of the exact same skill level or MMR.

  • A winning 1/3/1 for your team - You have on your team a Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Your Spellbreaker. The other team has Bunker Druid/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Spellbreaker. The comps are relatively mirrored aside from the fact that your team will have more team fight presence but less side node bunker/peel power, due to your Firebrand vs. the Bunker Druid. Let's say your team splits as: Chrono home, FB Scourge Scourge mid, your Spellbreaker to far. If the enemy team tries to engage 1/3/1 vs. your 1/3/1, they're going to be behind after the initial split. Their only options to engage you optimally, do not include any 3 man configurations to win the mid fight vs. your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge and they don't have any options to easily/quickly kill in 1v1s and win side nodes either. So as long as your team can at least stall the side node fights while the mid fight is won, your team will be ahead after the initial split and be in control of the next rotation.
  • A losing 1/3/1 for your team vs. those same enemies - Let's say that enemy team chooses to not engage you 1/3/1 vs. 1/3/1, but rather they pull a 1/1/3 split where their Spellbreaker caps home, the Bunker Druid goes mid to engage your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge to stop them up and delay mid cap, and the Chrono/Scourge/Scourge push far to kill or run off the guy capping your home. They can rotate on an initial split like this very quickly due to blink and portal entre, both Scourges get there fast. They did this because they knew the probability of your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Spellbreaker trying to play 1/3/1 was high. Now they have created a difficult situation for your team to adapt its rotation to. You'll be in a Spellbreaker vs. Spellbreaker on their home node, god knows how long that will go on, the node is still neutral. There is a single annoying Bunker Druid stalling the mid cap and drawing numbers to his 1, who at worst, can fallback to home and assist the SBer vs. SBer if he has to, which will do a couple things: It will allow an easy finishing of capping their own home node and if your team wants to stop that from happening, they have to send players from mid to the enemy home, which is removing numbers from mid, allowing those 3 guys at far who have already ran someone off if not killed him, to start creating a snowball rotation. They are definitely in control of the next rotation. Now your team has to make a choice of how to handle that situation and no matter what you chose to do, it won't involve keeping that Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge in the same place if you want to keep up in point ticks. The enemy team has effectively launched a rotation around the 1/3/1 power play and separated the Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge center of power. if they can keep up those type of rotations, they will maintain control of the match and every rotation there-in. <- That is the kind of stuff that happens in higher tier play, that makes the difference between good players and good players who really know how to work rotations.

So in my opinion, what holds most players back, is that they view that initial split rotation and all rotations in general as: What should I be doing? Where should I go next? I am doing rotations right on MY class, why are we losing? This is a limiting mentality because they have developed tunnel vision on how their class must always function or rotate. This is a symptom of the early advice new players receive, AKA: "Your Thief should be worried about harassing far all game" or "Your Firebrand should always stay in the team fight." ect.. ect.. This will bring them to a gold 2ish gold 3ish level in time because for the most part, what they are doing is -usually- optimal, but they will never beat the better players they are trying to outplay to achieve plat 1/2+ levels. They need to develop the ability to identify when those mundane usual tactics are not going to work in a given match, be able to see around it, and form counter rotations with the team, not alone.

The last important thing to mention in my opinion, is that rotations regardless of solo que or 5 man que, are something that was meant as a term for team plays, not individual actions. This is something that has confused an enormous amount of the player base and it is largely responsible for players not understanding how important it is to rotate with your team, not individually. In a single short example:

  • You still are on that team of Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Your Spellbreaker. Your team decides to 1/3/1 split again and declares it safe. Then when the gate opens, for some reason one of the Scourges decides he is going to rush the far node instead of letting the Spellbreaker do it. You have to make a decision: (A) Let him go far and get chewed up by the obvious Chrono that is currently capping it. Do you think that your team can pull ahead while allowing him to die like that? When the snowball happens, the Scourge dies and the Chrono comes mid, do you have realistic chances of winning this initial split? Can your team maintain control while allowing him to die or will it hurt you? Sometimes you have to (B) Acknowledge that the only way to possibly maintain control of the current rotation and the next, is actually follow the derp to the far node and make sure he does not die. Will doing this allow your team to pull ahead in the current play? If it seems as such, this is the correct thing to do. Just bail on the initial idea of 1/3/1 and adapt to cover whatever weakness is exposing your team at the time. Point being: The team must rotate as one, even with mistakes. If they do not, you're going to be 4v5 the entire match and at an incredible disadvantage, despite the 4 players who aren't messing up at all.

To answer your question very directly: There is no "best split", there are only splits and rotations that counter other splits and rotations.

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1-4-0 is generally better in Gold and below.1-3-1 is generally better in Platinum and above.

The reason being, that 1-3-1 means you are putting yourselves at greater risk of ending up in an out-numbered situation. The 3 going Mid are at risk of ending up 3v4, and the 1 going Far is at risk of one of the enemy-mid-group doubling back to make it 2v1.

If you or your team-mates find themselves out-numbered, they need to be sufficiently skilled to win out-numbered, or to at least hold out long enough for support to arrive, or to have the game-awareness to recognise a dangerous situation and to fall back without losses. The ability to sustain out-numbered, or the game-sense to withdraw from a losing fight without getting snow-balled, are generally not attributes of new or casual players. The ability to kite forever 1v2, or to be constantly aware of the minimap and know when not to engage, is much more of what separates Gold from Platinum than simple mechanical skill.

Generally what happens lower down when people get outnumbered, is they get wiped in under 10 seconds, and then start whining in chat about "why haven't you all got rest of the map, I was fighting 1v2, you guys useless". If you can't sustain outnumbered for at least (pulling number out of the air) 90 seconds, you shouldn't be putting yourself into outnumbered situations.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:In higher tiers, 1/3/1 is still the "preferable" split, but if often can't be done optimally due to a number of reasons. Players who insist on repeatedly pushing 1/3/1 will top out at hovering around gold 3ish high plat 1ish. What brings you past that hump is being able to see the game differently and it's a simple matter of:

  • Fully understanding the current meta and patching.
  • Being able to size up the capabilities of your team comp vs. the other team comp.
  • Interpreting where enemies will go on the initial split and adjusting your team's initial split to counter their split or at least engage them on equal grounds.

So let me toss a couple case examples. Let's consider all of the players are of the exact same skill level or MMR.

  • A winning 1/3/1 for your team - You have on your team a Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Your Spellbreaker. The other team has Bunker Druid/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Spellbreaker. The comps are relatively mirrored aside from the fact that your team will have more team fight presence but less side node bunker/peel power, due to your Firebrand vs. the Bunker Druid. Let's say your team splits as: Chrono home, FB Scourge Scourge mid, your Spellbreaker to far. If the enemy team tries to engage 1/3/1 vs. your 1/3/1, they're going to be behind after the initial split. Their only options to engage you optimally, do not include any 3 man configurations to win the mid fight vs. your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge and they don't have any options to easily/quickly kill in 1v1s and win side nodes either. So as long as your team can at least stall the side node fights while the mid fight is won, your team will be ahead after the initial split and be in control of the next rotation.
  • A losing 1/3/1 for your team vs. those same enemies - Let's say that enemy team chooses to not engage you 1/3/1 vs. 1/3/1, but rather they pull a 1/1/3 split where their Spellbreaker caps home, the Bunker Druid goes mid to engage your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge to stop them up and delay mid cap, and the Chrono/Scourge/Scourge push far to kill or run off the guy capping your home. They can rotate on an initial split like this very quickly due to blink and portal entre, both Scourges get there fast. They did this because they knew the probability of your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Spellbreaker trying to play 1/3/1 was high. Now they have created a difficult situation for your team to adapt its rotation to. You'll be in a Spellbreaker vs. Spellbreaker on their home node, god knows how long that will go on, the node is still neutral. There is a single annoying Bunker Druid stalling the mid cap and drawing numbers to his 1, who at worst, can fallback to home and assist the SBer vs. SBer if he has to, which will do a couple things: It will allow an easy finishing of capping their own home node and if your team wants to stop that from happening, they have to send players from mid to the enemy home, which is removing numbers from mid, allowing those 3 guys at far who have already ran someone off if not killed him, to start creating a snowball rotation. They are definitely in control of the next rotation. Now your team has to make a choice of how to handle that situation and no matter what you chose to do, it won't involve keeping that Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge in the same place if you want to keep up in point ticks. The enemy team has effectively launched a rotation around the 1/3/1 power play and separated the Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge center of power. if they can keep up those type of rotations, they will maintain control of the match and every rotation there-in. <- That is the kind of stuff that happens in higher tier play, that makes the difference between good players and good players who really know how to work rotations.

So in my opinion, what holds most players back, is that they view that initial split rotation and all rotations in general as: What should I be doing? Where should I go next? I am doing rotations right on MY class, why are we losing? This is a limiting mentality because they have developed tunnel vision on how their class must always function or rotate. This is a symptom of the early advice new players receive, AKA: "Your Thief should be worried about harassing far all game" or "Your Firebrand should always stay in the team fight." ect.. ect.. This will bring them to a gold 2ish gold 3ish level in time because for the most part, what they are doing is -usually- optimal, but they will never beat the better players they are trying to outplay to achieve plat 1/2+ levels. They need to develop the ability to identify when those mundane usual tactics are not going to work in a given match, be able to see around it, and form counter rotations with the team, not alone.

The last important thing to mention in my opinion, is that rotations regardless of solo que or 5 man que, are something that was meant as a term for team plays, not individual actions. This is something that has confused an enormous amount of the player base and it is largely responsible for players not understanding how important it is to rotate with your team, not individually. In a single short example:

  • You still are on that team of Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Your Spellbreaker. Your team decides to 1/3/1 split again and declares it safe. Then when the gate opens, for some reason one of the Scourges decides he is going to rush the far node instead of letting the Spellbreaker do it. You have to make a decision: (A) Let him go far and get chewed up by the obvious Chrono that is currently capping it. Do you think that your team can pull ahead while allowing him to die like that? When the snowball happens, the Scourge dies and the Chrono comes mid, do you have realistic chances of winning this initial split? Can your team maintain control while allowing him to die or will it hurt you? Sometimes you have to (B) Acknowledge that the only way to possibly maintain control of the current rotation and the next, is actually follow the kitten to the far node and make sure he does not die. Will doing this allow your team to pull ahead in the current play? If it seems as such, this is the correct thing to do. Just bail on the initial idea of 1/3/1 and adapt to cover whatever weakness is exposing your team at the time. Point being: The team must rotate as one, even with mistakes. If they do not, you're going to be 4v5 the entire match and at an incredible disadvantage, despite the 4 players who aren't messing up at all.

To answer your question very directly: There is no "best split", there are only splits and rotations that counter other splits and rotations.

Very good post man. This right here, great examples of proper rotations. Should be pinned.

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Never underestimate the element of surprise, splits where you totally ignore home at the start to like 0-3-2, 0-4-1, or even 0-5-0 can work really well if you can take advantage of the out numbered situations it can give you. You can get some early kills and completely throw the enemy off their game. Unfortunately it is harder to do this in soloq because people are fixed in the mindset that someone needs to cap home at the start. The overall point is though that this is pvp not pve, so there really is no totally optimal way to do things, as optimizing is being predictable which makes you counterable and no longer optimal.

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@ArthurDent.9538 said:Never underestimate the element of surprise, splits where you totally ignore home at the start to like 0-3-2, 0-4-1, or even 0-5-0 can work really well if you can take advantage of the out numbered situations it can give you. You can get some early kills and completely throw the enemy off their game. Unfortunately it is harder to do this in soloq because people are fixed in the mindset that someone needs to cap home at the start. The overall point is though that this is pvp not pve, so there really is no totally optimal way to do things, as optimizing is being predictable which makes you counterable and no longer optimal.

yeah, suprise splits rock!

back when you could play as a team my guild was super into 1-0-4 with a stealth opener at far. you instantly kill their home capper, then snowball mid. such a fun split, but it's not something that works that well with solo queue.

rotations start to get really fun when you're all on coms and are coordinating everything. it's when your truly 'get' gw2 pvp.

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HmHmHmmm....It seems that many opinions have an interesting component to them....They are no adaptable. 1-4-0 can easily be out paced by a good roamer (theif). 1-3-1 is semi adaptable but once you far runner fails, your team loses 90% of the time. But given the fact that both a 140 and 131 are the most common strategy, an optimal solutio is a 032. Finishing at far quickly enables an over load at mid. If your team is over loaded at mid, you can draw stragglers to close either decreasing numbers at mid for an overload or establishing side point dominance. Over 73% of games are decided by the first 1.5 team fights (adjusted to include the significance of the follow up). Obviously every tactic depends on the "right setup". But there is no better opening. Using neutral caps as bait is already common found. Why else is decapping employed at higher tiers?

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@Trevor Boyer.6524's post deserves a sticky/thread of its own, great way of putting it.

The best I can do is second his explanation, with the added caveat that if you are spamming matches at a particular time of day, you might end up seeing some of the same people repeatedly and need to adjust accordingly. I main a bunker druid, and my specialty is being the far troll in a 1-3-1. A couple people who were on my team for a few matches ended up on the opp team, and they knew I tended to volunteer for the far push. I proposed a 1-1-3 split initially, then to give up far and settle in for a home/mid hold based on our team comp. Thankfully, it worked out the way I'd hoped, and we won with a solid margin thanks to being able to 2-cap, then 3-cap early on.

Essentially, I think the 1-3-1 split is ideal for most situations, assuming 3 things: (1) far staller knows how to do it properly, (2) mid team knows how to stall but play it safe, and (3) team comps on both sides support the 1-3-1. If any one of those assumptions falls through, the "best" split comes down to what your teammates are capable of, and how clearly you can communicate the plan. And, as Trevor mentioned, hopefully no teammate runs off and does their own thing uselessly.

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Organized team comps will often 1-2-2 --> They send the firebrand and scourge mid to heckle and tank the opposing team, a warrior or druid to home, and a mesmer/warrior/thief pair to far. This method requires more communication, but it's pretty effective with the right setup.

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@choovanski.5462 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Never underestimate the element of surprise, splits where you totally ignore home at the start to like 0-3-2, 0-4-1, or even 0-5-0 can work really well if you can take advantage of the out numbered situations it can give you. You can get some early kills and completely throw the enemy off their game. Unfortunately it is harder to do this in soloq because people are fixed in the mindset that someone needs to cap home at the start. The overall point is though that this is pvp not pve, so there really is no totally optimal way to do things, as optimizing is being predictable which makes you counterable and no longer optimal.

yeah, suprise splits rock!

back when you could play as a team my guild was super into 1-0-4 with a stealth opener at far. you instantly kill their home capper, then snowball mid. such a fun split, but it's not something that works that well with solo queue.

rotations start to get really fun when you're all on coms and are coordinating everything. it's when your truly 'get' gw2 pvp.

If only people would actually work as a team and try new things in solo q. In a perfect world.

This seems fun but I will probably never see this happen.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:In higher tiers, 1/3/1 is still the "preferable" split, but if often can't be done optimally due to a number of reasons. Players who insist on repeatedly pushing 1/3/1 will top out at hovering around gold 3ish high plat 1ish. What brings you past that hump is being able to see the game differently and it's a simple matter of:

  • Fully understanding the current meta and patching.
  • Being able to size up the capabilities of your team comp vs. the other team comp.
  • Interpreting where enemies will go on the initial split and adjusting your team's initial split to counter their split or at least engage them on equal grounds.

So let me toss a couple case examples. Let's consider all of the players are of the exact same skill level or MMR.

  • A winning 1/3/1 for your team - You have on your team a Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Your Spellbreaker. The other team has Bunker Druid/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Spellbreaker. The comps are relatively mirrored aside from the fact that your team will have more team fight presence but less side node bunker/peel power, due to your Firebrand vs. the Bunker Druid. Let's say your team splits as: Chrono home, FB Scourge Scourge mid, your Spellbreaker to far. If the enemy team tries to engage 1/3/1 vs. your 1/3/1, they're going to be behind after the initial split. Their only options to engage you optimally, do not include any 3 man configurations to win the mid fight vs. your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge and they don't have any options to easily/quickly kill in 1v1s and win side nodes either. So as long as your team can at least stall the side node fights while the mid fight is won, your team will be ahead after the initial split and be in control of the next rotation.
  • A losing 1/3/1 for your team vs. those same enemies - Let's say that enemy team chooses to not engage you 1/3/1 vs. 1/3/1, but rather they pull a 1/1/3 split where their Spellbreaker caps home, the Bunker Druid goes mid to engage your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge to stop them up and delay mid cap, and the Chrono/Scourge/Scourge push far to kill or run off the guy capping your home. They can rotate on an initial split like this very quickly due to blink and portal entre, both Scourges get there fast. They did this because they knew the probability of your Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Spellbreaker trying to play 1/3/1 was high. Now they have created a difficult situation for your team to adapt its rotation to. You'll be in a Spellbreaker vs. Spellbreaker on their home node, god knows how long that will go on, the node is still neutral. There is a single annoying Bunker Druid stalling the mid cap and drawing numbers to his 1, who at worst, can fallback to home and assist the SBer vs. SBer if he has to, which will do a couple things: It will allow an easy finishing of capping their own home node and if your team wants to stop that from happening, they have to send players from mid to the enemy home, which is removing numbers from mid, allowing those 3 guys at far who have already ran someone off if not killed him, to start creating a snowball rotation. They are definitely in control of the next rotation. Now your team has to make a choice of how to handle that situation and no matter what you chose to do, it won't involve keeping that Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge in the same place if you want to keep up in point ticks. The enemy team has effectively launched a rotation around the 1/3/1 power play and separated the Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge center of power. if they can keep up those type of rotations, they will maintain control of the match and every rotation there-in. <- That is the kind of stuff that happens in higher tier play, that makes the difference between good players and good players who really know how to work rotations.

So in my opinion, what holds most players back, is that they view that initial split rotation and all rotations in general as: What should I be doing? Where should I go next? I am doing rotations right on MY class, why are we losing? This is a limiting mentality because they have developed tunnel vision on how their class must always function or rotate. This is a symptom of the early advice new players receive, AKA: "Your Thief should be worried about harassing far all game" or "Your Firebrand should always stay in the team fight." ect.. ect.. This will bring them to a gold 2ish gold 3ish level in time because for the most part, what they are doing is -usually- optimal, but they will never beat the better players they are trying to outplay to achieve plat 1/2+ levels. They need to develop the ability to identify when those mundane usual tactics are not going to work in a given match, be able to see around it, and form counter rotations with the team, not alone.

The last important thing to mention in my opinion, is that rotations regardless of solo que or 5 man que, are something that was meant as a term for team plays, not individual actions. This is something that has confused an enormous amount of the player base and it is largely responsible for players not understanding how important it is to rotate with your team, not individually. In a single short example:

  • You still are on that team of Firebrand/Scourge/Scourge/Chrono/Your Spellbreaker. Your team decides to 1/3/1 split again and declares it safe. Then when the gate opens, for some reason one of the Scourges decides he is going to rush the far node instead of letting the Spellbreaker do it. You have to make a decision: (A) Let him go far and get chewed up by the obvious Chrono that is currently capping it. Do you think that your team can pull ahead while allowing him to die like that? When the snowball happens, the Scourge dies and the Chrono comes mid, do you have realistic chances of winning this initial split? Can your team maintain control while allowing him to die or will it hurt you? Sometimes you have to (B) Acknowledge that the only way to possibly maintain control of the current rotation and the next, is actually follow the kitten to the far node and make sure he does not die. Will doing this allow your team to pull ahead in the current play? If it seems as such, this is the correct thing to do. Just bail on the initial idea of 1/3/1 and adapt to cover whatever weakness is exposing your team at the time. Point being: The team must rotate as one, even with mistakes. If they do not, you're going to be 4v5 the entire match and at an incredible disadvantage, despite the 4 players who aren't messing up at all.

To answer your question very directly: There is no "best split", there are only splits and rotations that counter other splits and rotations.

Thank you for this post, it is very helpful.Would you be able to give some advice to mesmer/thieves? As a mesmer (mirage), a lot of the time I struggle to decide whether to stay on point or go help out at mid. I usually go far because I am fairly confident in my ability to 1v1 a player of a similar skill level to mine, not to mention the massive disengage potential of a mesmer.Thanks

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