Fair criticism regarding the moderation procedure

[Zlater.6789]

Hi,I'm writing this because I only want to give fair criticism to a post made by @Gaile Gray.6029 only very recently. I do not mean for there to be any malicious intent or ill-meaning in my feedback.

Recently Gaile posted a continuation regarding forum appeals to moderation, I quote:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:"ABOUT APPEALS: Forum infraction appeals can take a significant amount of time to review and resolve. We're happy to review an appeal about any infraction that blocks or limits your ability to participate on the forums.

But please keep this in mind: A single, one-point warning has no impact on your account. it neither blocks your ability to post nor limits your feature set in any way. A point is given simply as a record-keeping measure. In the unlikely event someone amasses several one-point warnings in a short period of time, they will experience a temporary forum suspension or loss of features. But again, the occasional one-point warning does not limit a member's ability to participate here at all.

If you receive a one-point warning, please review the message from the moderator and take their recommendations to heart. Please do not submit an appeal for something that doesn't impact your forum participation. If you have questions about a moderator decision that resulted in an actual limitation on your ability to participate, please e-mail us at Forums@Arena.Net."

I think there is a problem, a lot of your customers who are using the official forums have been saying things like "the censoring" and "extreme censorship." There seems to be a very real concern growing in the community about over-censorship, but it seems by your post that it isn't the intent of the moderation staff; please don't quote me because that is only my understanding of your post.

So I believe there has to be some disconnect or "bad communication" for lack of a better term. I want to speak to that directly.

I believe the most important part of the issue is not necessarily with the policy (I must be careful to explicitly mention that I am not talking about that), or even with the point system itself. In fact I believe that there is not any reason for us to see the point system if it is only as serious as you tell us it is (as it seems it is strictly an internal system). My issue is with this:

@"Forum Moderator.4372" said:"In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed, as has your comment that is quoted in this message. If someone has posted inappropriately, please do not respond, but instead use the forum report system to allow a moderator to review the comments. Thanks for your understanding. Please do not respond to this message; inquiries may be directed to Forums@Arena.Net."

Fair dinkum if you wanna remove a post for whatever minor reason, yeah I get it I'm pretty straight forward and maybe that rubs someone up the wrong way, and I can bet that I'm not the only one like me.But you tell me in an official WARNING that;I attacked someone?I singled out players for ridicule?

What am I to you, a criminal? I know maybe it's not the intent because this is just copy-paste jargon, but could you just chill on the wording a bit?It bothers me because it attacks my integrity. I think very few people intend to verbally assault anyone on these forums. But when you tell us we are, it makes us feel terrible and we don't understand why. These copy-paste messages don't bother to explain the basis of the accusation and they most certainly don't make it easy to digest.If I'm to be honest (and don't get me wrong, I don't encourage anyone else to want this or break any of your ToS by saying so), but I'd rather be permanently blocked from creating messages on the forums and wash my hands of this trouble forever; than risk dealing with these full on friendly warnings we seem to be getting more and more of lately.

So what to do?

Might I suggest replacing the messages with something like this in the mean time:

"Hi (X),This is just a friendly message to notify you that unfortunately we have had to remove one of your forum messages. We understand that it may not be the intent of yourself or others to cause harm. But we have remove it because either a message you quoted, wrote or a thread you responded to was reported to contain (X) which caused a breach of the ToS.Thank You sincerely for your understanding as we are sorry if this has caused you any trouble.If you would like to inquire further please contact us by email at Forums@Arena.Net as we are unable to respond to any messages we receive.

Sincerely, @"Forum Moderator.xxxx""

All I'm really suggesting is just to make it sound friendly. I know it isn't a lot and it doesn't fix everything, but a little goes a long way and it means a lot to us when you speak respectfully with us, your loyal customer advocates.

Maybe this post has upset someone or broken some ToS that I am unaware of, but I say this with deep sincerity, it is not my intent to do so. So I ask if you're reading it, please give it a second thought before removing it, if need be I implore you to simply delete the parts you don't like. I would rather that than the time I spent carefully writing this be for naught.

Thanks :smiley:

[Bloodstealer.5978]

I already made my feelings known to Gaile regarding this very subject.In fact today was another good example of over zealous moderation.. replying to a post that was clearly trying to regurgitate the same stuff in a previously closed thread that had laid the groundwork for it becoming off topic and derailed.. simply by saying "here we go again"Now, agreed I am no snowflake or butterfly chaser but seriously if that deserved moderation then there is something not right with the script.Heck it was an attempt to steer the thread back on topic not run more unwanted tangents... and I become the bad guy without the moderator having the slightest thought as to what the post was referring to and why... something is wrong imo for sure..

[kharmin.7683]

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

At the risk of moderation then.. I wholeheartedly disagree with your belief, at least on my part...Cant speak for the other poster you quoted but for me it was an attempt to make clear that trying to plant and regurgitate more wild tangents in a newly formed thread after it had already set the groundwork for the hugely derailed and off topic stuff that caused a previous thread to eventually be closed for.. So yes it was attempting to steer//advance the conversation back to the topic of what the thread was actually about.

I don't mind that we disagree here. Neither of us (afaik) are mods here, so neither of us really knows with full certainty why things are modded the way that they are. I can only go from my experience being a mod on another forum (many years ago, so things likely have changed since then). Saying "here we go again" doesn't really advance the topic. Perhaps I'm only taking that one line out of context from the rest of the post that contained it, but I didn't have that evidence to look at when I made my observation here.

FWIW I find the moderation here to be more strict than in other forums I've visited (or modded), and in many ways I am grateful for it. However, I do understand the displeasure several posters have when it comes to what appears to be inconsistent modding.

/me shrugs

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

At the risk of moderation then.. I wholeheartedly disagree with your belief, at least on my part...Cant speak for the other poster you quoted but for me it was an attempt to make clear that trying to plant and regurgitate more wild tangents in a newly formed thread after it had already set the groundwork for the hugely derailed and off topic stuff that caused a previous thread to eventually be closed for.. So yes it was attempting to steer//advance the conversation back to the topic of what the thread was actually about.

I don't mind that we disagree here. Neither of us (afaik) are mods here, so neither of us really knows with full certainty why things are modded the way that they are. I can only go from my experience being a mod on another forum (many years ago, so things likely have changed since then). Saying "here we go again" doesn't really advance the topic. Perhaps I'm only taking that one line out of context from the rest of the post that contained it, but I didn't have that evidence to look at when I made my observation here.

FWIW I find the moderation here to be more strict than in other forums I've visited (or modded), and in many ways I am grateful for it. However, I do understand the displeasure several posters have when it comes to what appears to be inconsistent modding.

/me shrugs

that's the thing.. disagreeing is healthy it opens up dialogue and conversation.. but making regurgitated statements that are nothing more than indirect attacks are what should be moderated by the devs or at the very least considered when moderating others who have responded to them in a non aggressive manner and attempting to steer the thread back on topic... but that is what is missing imo and why I believe a lot of moderation is heavy handed, often one sided without due consideration... sure if I had responded by saying "why don't you st*u with your regurgitated off topic tripe".. then I would absolutely of expected moderation, but also expected the post being responded to, to also be considered in the process.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:I already made my feelings known to Gaile regarding this very subject.In fact today was another good example of over zealous moderation.. replying to a post that was clearly trying to regurgitate the same stuff in a previously closed thread that had laid the groundwork for it becoming off topic and derailed.. simply by saying "here we go again"Now, agreed I am no snowflake or butterfly chaser but seriously if that deserved moderation then there is something not right with the script.Heck it was an attempt to steer the thread back on topic not run more unwanted tangents... and I become the bad guy without the moderator having the slightest thought as to what the post was referring to and why... something is wrong imo for sure..

“Here we go again” isn’t constructive nor does it add anything of value to the discussion.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Again, context and tone matter. But I will say this: my experiences on the old forum taught me not to respond to or quote nonsense. Instead, report it and let the moderators decide. As far as the moderation message? Don't read so much into it, but it's not meant to be friendly either. It's a warning to curb certain behavior or real consequences will follow.

The trick to these forums is to know where the line is and how not cross it. And you can believe me when I tell you . . . it took me a while to figure that out myself. Heck, I'm still learning. ? Yes, these forums are quite different from others we've posted on, but I'm also learning to appreciate it more given the tone on those other forums. But, as always, posters have the option to post elsewhere if they feel the moderators are too oppressive given certain members' posting style.

Again, in the end, the poster is the one who decides his or her own fate.

Hint: Discussing one's own moderation, here or elsewhere in specific, isn't going to go over well. I highly suggest you remove and/or edit it before those posts get more unwanted attention.

Word to the wise.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Ardenwolfe.8590 said:Again, context and tone matter. But I will say this: my experiences on the old forum taught me not to respond to or quote nonsense. Instead, report it and let the moderators decide.

As far as the moderation message? Don't read so much into it, but it's not meant to be friendly either. It's a warning to curb certain behavior or real consequences will follow.

The trick to these forums is to know where the line is and how not cross it. And you can believe me when I tell you . . . it took me a while to figure that out myself. Heck, I'm still learning. ? Yes, these forums are quite different from others we've posted on, but I'm also learning to appreciate it more given the tone on those other forums.

But, as always, posters have the option to post elsewhere if they feel the moderators are too oppressive given certain members' posting style.

Again, in the end, the poster is the one who decides his or her own fate.

There in lies the problem.. as is stated in the relevant forum thread and which is acknowledged by ANET.. I have no such buttons to fulfil that option.. due to website bugs which vanilla are currently sorting, I and others cant report.. so making posts known to mods via response is the only option until its fixed.> @Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:I already made my feelings known to Gaile regarding this very subject.In fact today was another good example of over zealous moderation.. replying to a post that was clearly trying to regurgitate the same stuff in a previously closed thread that had laid the groundwork for it becoming off topic and derailed.. simply by saying "here we go again"Now, agreed I am no snowflake or butterfly chaser but seriously if that deserved moderation then there is something not right with the script.Heck it was an attempt to steer the thread back on topic not run more unwanted tangents... and I become the bad guy without the moderator having the slightest thought as to what the post was referring to and why... something is wrong imo for sure..

“Here we go again” isn’t constructive nor does it add anything of value to the discussion.

Wrong its just another way of saying.. not this off topic nonsense again.. moderate it and warn the poster to stay on topic

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

As far as the warning or point system, if I recall correctly, it lasts an hour to a week depending on prior infractions. Also, and I know this will be a tough pill to swallow, it's not an observation on anyone as a person. In the bigger scheme of things, it's only a forum and discussion. Please don't take moderation on a gaming forum too seriously.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

(laugh) I really don't envy the moderators' job. Again, the key word is constructive discussion . . . but I see I'm starting to repeat myself. ?

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Zlater.6789" said:I think there is a problem, a lot of your customers who are using the official forums have been saying things like "the censoring" and "extreme censorship." There seems to be a very real concern growing in the community about over-censorship

Welcome to the self-martyring consumer culture.A lot of people throw around words that sound as big and as damaging as possible in order to make themselves out to be a victim.

We had "a lot of customers" claim they were banned unfairly recently for using TACO and Arc.We had "a lot of customers" call Arenanet thieves and criminals because they didn't like mount skin pricing.We had "a lot of customers" saying Anet doesn't care about hacking and botting.We had "a lot of customers" who claim "the game is dying" because the developers don't balance it around their personal playstyle.

It's very possible we have "a lot of customers" breaking the rules, getting bopped on the nose for it and trying to make as much drama as possible about it because they are booty bothered.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Zlater.6789" said:I think there is a problem, a lot of your customers who are using the official forums have been saying things like "the censoring" and "extreme censorship." There seems to be a very real concern growing in the community about over-censorship

Welcome to the self-martyring consumer culture.A lot of people throw around words that sound as big and as damaging as possible in order to make themselves out to be a victim.

We had "a lot of customers" claim they were banned unfairly recently for using TACO and Arc.We had "a lot of customers" call Arenanet thieves and criminals because they didn't like mount skin pricing.We had "a lot of customers" saying Anet doesn't care about hacking and botting.We had "a lot of customers" who claim "the game is dying" because the developers don't balance it around their personal playstyle.

It's very possible we have "a lot of customers" breaking the rules, getting bopped on the nose for it and trying to make as much drama as possible about it because they are booty bothered.

You forgot the "We had lots of customers" claim they were illegally spied on by ANETAnd my personal favorite - We have "A customer who thinks ANET do nothing but create false positives whenever they switch the lights on and off each day" :)

[Gaile Gray.6029]

We just hosted and engaged in a lengthy conversation about moderation. Sorry if you missed that, but this forum is about the game and these conversations really don't add a whole lot to the forums overall. I'll take the comments on board, but I'm not willing to engage in another conversation -- no matter how well intended -- at this time. You're welcome to send suggestions to Forums@Arena.Net, but let's keep the forums focused on what the forums are about, and not make the forums about the forums, y'know? :)