Which specs are actual "sidegrades"? (adventurer edition)

[Vagrant.7206]

Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

[Oglaf.1074]

I’d actually say Deadeye and Daredevil. At least for PvE after the Rifle buff. They can output about the same damage, but each does so in a very different way with clear advantages and disadvantages each. Deadeye does it at great range but is immobilized, Daredevil does it in melee but gets lots of fancy tricks to thrive in the thick of it.

Both seem however to be obvious upgrades over Core.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vagrant.7206 said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

[Leo G.4501]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

I don't particularly agree. The elite specs are meant to enhance a specific aspect of the class beyond what is normally capable but usually at some cost or loss of something else. Tempest does give you upgraded attunement buttons but the cost is the cast time and cooldown it adds, Spellbreaker does upgrade your class bar by adding an extra counter button but you give up the ability to use bursts effects above 1 bar.

I personally think Deadeye seemed more a side-grade than Daredevil because DD didn't give anything up or pay anything for what it gets but Deadeye looses the ability to shadowstep to the target with steal and traded its normal steal skills for its malice marks.

Haven't played Holo and not much Scrapper, haven't touched Druid either but Soulbeast feels like an upgrade as you just get more ways to manage your pet + more skills to play with + on-merg effects in conjunction with your pet commands and on pet-swap traits...but even as an upgrade, I don't think people perceive it as more powerful than Druid which seems also like an upgrade...

[Vagrant.7206]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

I don't particularly agree. The elite specs

are

meant to enhance a specific aspect of the class beyond what is normally capable but usually at some cost or loss of something else. Tempest does give you upgraded attunement buttons but the cost is the cast time and cooldown it adds, Spellbreaker does upgrade your class bar by adding an extra counter button but you give up the ability to use bursts effects above 1 bar.

I personally think Deadeye seemed more a side-grade than Daredevil because DD didn't give anything up or pay anything for what it gets but Deadeye looses the ability to shadowstep to the target with steal and traded its normal steal skills for its malice marks.

Haven't played Holo and not much Scrapper, haven't touched Druid either but Soulbeast feels like an upgrade as you just get more ways to manage your pet + more skills to play with + on-merg effects in conjunction with your pet commands and on pet-swap traits...but even as an upgrade, I don't think people perceive it as more powerful than Druid which seems also like an upgrade...

Scrapper is most definitively not an upgrade to core engineer. Core engineer can outdamage it, both power and condi. Scrapper is just better at tanking, that's about it.

[steki.1478]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

I don't particularly agree. The elite specs

are

meant to enhance a specific aspect of the class beyond what is normally capable but usually at some cost or loss of something else. Tempest does give you upgraded attunement buttons but the cost is the cast time and cooldown it adds, Spellbreaker does upgrade your class bar by adding an extra counter button but you give up the ability to use bursts effects above 1 bar.

I personally think Deadeye seemed more a side-grade than Daredevil because DD didn't give anything up or pay anything for what it gets but Deadeye looses the ability to shadowstep to the target with steal and traded its normal steal skills for its malice marks.

Haven't played Holo and not much Scrapper, haven't touched Druid either but Soulbeast feels like an upgrade as you just get more ways to manage your pet + more skills to play with + on-merg effects in conjunction with your pet commands and on pet-swap traits...but even as an upgrade, I don't think people perceive it as more powerful than Druid which seems also like an upgrade...

Scrapper is most definitively not an upgrade to core engineer. Core engineer can outdamage it, both power and condi. Scrapper is just better at tanking, that's about it.

Which means it's a direct upgrade to its defense. It's mechanics dont intersect with core engi, making it a direct upgrade (stomp/rez gyro addition).

[Vagrant.7206]

@steki.1478 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

I don't particularly agree. The elite specs

are

meant to enhance a specific aspect of the class beyond what is normally capable but usually at some cost or loss of something else. Tempest does give you upgraded attunement buttons but the cost is the cast time and cooldown it adds, Spellbreaker does upgrade your class bar by adding an extra counter button but you give up the ability to use bursts effects above 1 bar.

I personally think Deadeye seemed more a side-grade than Daredevil because DD didn't give anything up or pay anything for what it gets but Deadeye looses the ability to shadowstep to the target with steal and traded its normal steal skills for its malice marks.

Haven't played Holo and not much Scrapper, haven't touched Druid either but Soulbeast feels like an upgrade as you just get more ways to manage your pet + more skills to play with + on-merg effects in conjunction with your pet commands and on pet-swap traits...but even as an upgrade, I don't think people perceive it as more powerful than Druid which seems also like an upgrade...

Scrapper is most definitively not an upgrade to core engineer. Core engineer can outdamage it, both power and condi. Scrapper is just better at tanking, that's about it.

Which means it's a direct upgrade to its defense. It's mechanics dont intersect with core engi, making it a direct upgrade (stomp/rez gyro addition).

Not really. Core engineer has access to a lot of defense as well, but it's hard to play defensively as engineer while maintaining offense. Scrapper allows you to do both, but it's not really an improvement over either.

And function gyro? Really? That's the straight upgrade we're going with? Sure, I guess, even though its use outside of PvP is severely limited.

[mortrialus.3062]

Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at anything, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

[Leo G.4501]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at anything, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

It depends. Just because you gain something over something else doesn't automatically mean upgrade. In your mirage example, if you gain more DPS by running 3 DPS lines rather than just 2, you're still giving up something, be it utility, sustain, cooldown reduction. By definition and how the trait lines are set up, you're always giving up something for something else. It's called opportunity cost.

That's why I wouldn't so simply measure DPS or whatever as the deciding factor for if something is an upgrade or not. It's what you gain vs what you lose/what it costs to use what you gain.

I literally know nothing about Mirage (for all I know, it is an Upgrade), but I'm sure there are other examples where the end product might result in a better version statistically but that can easily change if the numbers are tweeked. In which case, I suppose that means I'm more looking at the intent of the spec rather than its min/max performance.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

It depends. Just because you gain something over something else doesn't automatically mean upgrade. In your mirage example, if you gain more DPS by running 3 DPS lines rather than just 2, you're still giving up something, be it utility, sustain, cooldown reduction. By definition and how the trait lines are set up, you're always giving up something for something else. It's called opportunity cost.

That's why I wouldn't so simply measure DPS or whatever as the deciding factor for if something is an upgrade or not. It's what you gain vs what you lose/what it costs to use what you gain.

I literally know nothing about Mirage (for all I know, it is an Upgrade), but I'm sure there are other examples where the end product might result in a better version statistically but that can easily change if the numbers are tweeked. In which case, I suppose that means I'm more looking at the intent of the spec rather than its min/max performance.

Mirage Axe and it's Ambush Attack with Infinite Horizon is a direct upgrade for condition damage mesmers but the bulk of that comes from Axe actually being a good weapon for condition damage in PvE. Scepter in particular was really, really bad. Mirage let's you run Dueling+Mirage+Illusions/Chaos. Chaos is better sustained DPS in PvE, while Illusions is better for shatter burst damage making it better in PvP.

Chronomancer is geared towards being a defensive, support spec, quality of life spec. It has a ton of quickness and alacrity it can share to allies, shield is an amazing defensive weapon.

They're both direct upgrades to core mesmer but they're side grades to each other and incomparable. It's a similar care to Druid and Soulbeast, Berseker and Spellbreaker, Weaver and Tempest. That's the intent behind Elite Specializations.

[Oglaf.1074]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

It depends. Just because you gain something over something else doesn't automatically mean upgrade. In your mirage example, if you gain more DPS by running 3 DPS lines rather than just 2, you're still giving up something, be it utility, sustain, cooldown reduction. By definition and how the trait lines are set up, you're always giving up something for something else. It's called opportunity cost.

That's why I wouldn't so simply measure DPS or whatever as the deciding factor for if something is an upgrade or not. It's what you gain vs what you lose/what it costs to use what you gain.

I literally know nothing about Mirage (for all I know, it is an Upgrade), but I'm sure there are other examples where the end product might result in a better version statistically but that can easily change if the numbers are tweeked. In which case, I suppose that means I'm more looking at the intent of the spec rather than its min/max performance.

Mirage Axe and it's Ambush Attack with Infinite Horizon is a direct upgrade for condition damage mesmers but the bulk of that comes from Axe actually being a good weapon for condition damage in PvE. Scepter in particular was really, really bad. Mirage let's you run Dueling+Mirage+Illusions/Chaos. Chaos is better sustained DPS in PvE, while Illusions is better for shatter burst damage making it better in PvP.

Chronomancer is geared towards being a defensive, support spec, quality of life spec. It has a ton of quickness and alacrity it can share to allies, shield is an amazing defensive weapon.

They're both direct upgrades to core mesmer but they're side grades to each other and incomparable. It's a similar care to Druid and Soulbeast, Berseker and Spellbreaker, Weaver and Tempest. That's the intent behind Elite Specializations.

As a Warrior main, I heavily disagree with Spellbreaker/Berserker being direct upgrades over Core Warrior.

Mostly due to how Burst are affected: neither Spellbreaker or Berserker can perform higher than level 1 Bursts when it comes to the traits Adrenal Health and Berserker’s Power. Being able to hit three stacks of each with one single Burst is a huge advantage that Core retains.

In return you instead get access to Full Counter and Primal Bursts respectively. I’d say Warrior specs are the definition of sidegrades as they sacrifice the potency of the core mechanic for their own, unique version of it.

[Leo G.4501]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

It depends. Just because you gain something over something else doesn't automatically mean upgrade. In your mirage example, if you gain more DPS by running 3 DPS lines rather than just 2, you're still giving up something, be it utility, sustain, cooldown reduction. By definition and how the trait lines are set up, you're always giving up something for something else. It's called opportunity cost.

That's why I wouldn't so simply measure DPS or whatever as the deciding factor for if something is an upgrade or not. It's what you gain vs what you lose/what it costs to use what you gain.

I literally know nothing about Mirage (for all I know, it is an Upgrade), but I'm sure there are other examples where the end product might result in a better version statistically but that can easily change if the numbers are tweeked. In which case, I suppose that means I'm more looking at the intent of the spec rather than its min/max performance.

Mirage Axe and it's Ambush Attack with Infinite Horizon is a direct upgrade for condition damage mesmers but the bulk of that comes from Axe actually being a good weapon for condition damage in PvE. Scepter in particular was really, really bad. Mirage let's you run Dueling+Mirage+Illusions/Chaos. Chaos is better sustained DPS in PvE, while Illusions is better for shatter burst damage making it better in PvP.

Chronomancer is geared towards being a defensive, support spec, quality of life spec. It has a ton of quickness and alacrity it can share to allies, shield is an amazing defensive weapon.

They're both direct upgrades to core mesmer but they're side grades to each other and incomparable. It's a similar care to Druid and Soulbeast, Berseker and Spellbreaker, Weaver and Tempest. That's the intent behind Elite Specializations.

For one, doing better condi than core isn't itself an upgrade unless condi is itself superior to power. Like I said, I don't really know much about Mirage or Chronomancer, I just know that my phantasm or shatter mesmer is gutted and haven't played it. You likely are right that the Mesmer elites are upgrades but that isn't what all elites are, which is the purpose of the thread.

And I am not super into Weaver but I do know Tempest and while it has a lot of DPS potential and support potential, it comes at a cost. That cost is being in close quarters to use overloads, having to stay in an attunement for a time to have access to that overload, the long cast time of the overload and the cooldown it puts on that attunement. Granted, there are ways to circumvent some of the costs, but not all of the costs. And because there's a cost, it's not really an upgrade unless you just ignore the cost in your assessment.

[Zin Dau.1749]

Mirage can shatter like crazy, probably better than before. Axe 2 creates a clone, is 2-charge ammo, and recharges every 6.5 seconds; i.e. creates clones just as fast as scepter AA, but much better skill overall. Then the traits create even more clones. Every Deception skill creates clone if a clone already present. Not even mentioned the core traits. Dueling GM (Deceptive Evasion) creates clone with every dodge; for Mirage, that means every ambush creates a clone on top of ambush attack. Illusions line Mind Wrack becomes 2-charge ammo, which is huge burst damage along with how fast Mirage can create clones. You can even trait to create clones when you stealth. Perfect since Mirage wields torch, and torch 4 stealths you. Signet of Midnight also stealths when activated; passive is perfect for condi builds since it increases condi duration.

Overall not only is Mirage huge DPS boost for Mesmer, it gains superb sustain and clone generation.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

It depends. Just because you gain something over something else doesn't automatically mean upgrade. In your mirage example, if you gain more DPS by running 3 DPS lines rather than just 2, you're still giving up something, be it utility, sustain, cooldown reduction. By definition and how the trait lines are set up, you're always giving up something for something else. It's called opportunity cost.

That's why I wouldn't so simply measure DPS or whatever as the deciding factor for if something is an upgrade or not. It's what you gain vs what you lose/what it costs to use what you gain.

I literally know nothing about Mirage (for all I know, it is an Upgrade), but I'm sure there are other examples where the end product might result in a better version statistically but that can easily change if the numbers are tweeked. In which case, I suppose that means I'm more looking at the intent of the spec rather than its min/max performance.

Mirage Axe and it's Ambush Attack with Infinite Horizon is a direct upgrade for condition damage mesmers but the bulk of that comes from Axe actually being a good weapon for condition damage in PvE. Scepter in particular was really, really bad. Mirage let's you run Dueling+Mirage+Illusions/Chaos. Chaos is better sustained DPS in PvE, while Illusions is better for shatter burst damage making it better in PvP.

Chronomancer is geared towards being a defensive, support spec, quality of life spec. It has a ton of quickness and alacrity it can share to allies, shield is an amazing defensive weapon.

They're both direct upgrades to core mesmer but they're side grades to each other and incomparable. It's a similar care to Druid and Soulbeast, Berseker and Spellbreaker, Weaver and Tempest. That's the intent behind Elite Specializations.

As a Warrior main, I heavily disagree with Spellbreaker/Berserker being direct upgrades over Core Warrior.

Mostly due to how Burst are affected: neither Spellbreaker or Berserker can perform higher than level 1 Bursts when it comes to the traits Adrenal Health and Berserker’s Power. Being able to hit three stacks of each with one single Burst is a huge advantage that Core retains.

In return you instead get access to Full Counter and Primal Bursts respectively. I’d say Warrior specs are the definition of sidegrades as they sacrifice the potency of the core mechanic for their own, unique version of it.

They're still direct upgrades over core warrior in terms of performance. Berserker is better at condition damage and is the best DPS on larger targets for warrior. Spellbreaker is better at power damage and is the best DPS on small targets for warrior. Condition Berserker doesn't really care all that much about Berserker's Power and in scenarios where it can trigger Full Counter Spellbreaker has much better uptime with it than Core Warrior even if Core Warrior can get there in one burst. Both Spellbreaker and Berserker are direct upgrade's to warrior's performance.

I don't think you know what the argument here is. The OP has made it very clear, he's talking about the capabilities of the specs directly compared to the core specializations. He thinks both Berserker and Spellbreaker shouldn't be upgrades to Core Warrior in anyway, through Power Damage, Condition Damage, Survivability, Support, or Utility. He thinks both those Elite Specializations and all other Elite Specializations should be equal to their core counterparts.

[coro.3176]

Of the ones in this poll, I'd rate them (from most power creep to least, so the ones at the bottom will be the most balanced):

• Druid - All the usual Ranger stuff, plus aoe magic healing funtimes with absolutely no downside.
• Holosmith - All the usual Engineer stuff, plus aoe massive damage. Ranked below druid because you can accidentally self-damage if you're not careful, and it locks you out of kits for a brief period while forge is active.
• Soulbeast - All the usual Ranger stuff, plus the option to merge with your pet for stats. This would be ranked the same as Deadeye if you were always in beastmode as SB.
• Daredevil - Free extra dodge.
• Holosmith - Function Gyro is technically a strict upgrade on engi.. even though it's only useful in PvP/WvW roaming.
• Deadeye - Gets nothing for free! Mark replaces steal.

[ArthurDent.9538]

For the most part everyone saying that elite specs like daredevil are direct upgrades because they only add to the profession mechanic with no cost are completely missing the point of what an elite spec is, a traitline. The cost of selecting any elite specs is always that you lose one core traitline and the question is simply what 3 tratlines give the most collective value for what you are trying to do. For a long time Daredevil was considered the best third traitline for thief for pvp so everyone ran it. Then people figured out that acro with sword, trickery, and deadly arts all provided more value leaving Daredevil the 4th best line and frequently untaken. If thieves could take Daredevil as a fourth traitline they would because it certainly adds value, but just not as much as the three traitlines they do take.

[Vagrant.7206]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:For the most part everyone saying that elite specs like daredevil are direct upgrades because they only add to the profession mechanic with no cost are completely missing the point of what an elite spec is, a traitline. The cost of selecting any elite specs is always that you lose one core traitline and the question is simply what 3 tratlines give the most collective value for what you are trying to do. For a long time Daredevil was considered the best third traitline for thief for pvp so everyone ran it. Then people figured out that acro with sword, trickery, and deadly arts all provided more value leaving Daredevil the 4th best line and frequently untaken. If thieves could take Daredevil as a fourth traitline they would because it certainly adds value, but just not as much as the three traitlines they do take.

That specific S/D build you're referring to has actually been around for a while. It simply fell out of favor because it didn't fit the meta. PvP builds for thief are often determined by the meta.

[Oglaf.1074]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

It depends. Just because you gain something over something else doesn't automatically mean upgrade. In your mirage example, if you gain more DPS by running 3 DPS lines rather than just 2, you're still giving up something, be it utility, sustain, cooldown reduction. By definition and how the trait lines are set up, you're always giving up something for something else. It's called opportunity cost.

That's why I wouldn't so simply measure DPS or whatever as the deciding factor for if something is an upgrade or not. It's what you gain vs what you lose/what it costs to use what you gain.

I literally know nothing about Mirage (for all I know, it is an Upgrade), but I'm sure there are other examples where the end product might result in a better version statistically but that can easily change if the numbers are tweeked. In which case, I suppose that means I'm more looking at the intent of the spec rather than its min/max performance.

Mirage Axe and it's Ambush Attack with Infinite Horizon is a direct upgrade for condition damage mesmers but the bulk of that comes from Axe actually being a good weapon for condition damage in PvE. Scepter in particular was really, really bad. Mirage let's you run Dueling+Mirage+Illusions/Chaos. Chaos is better sustained DPS in PvE, while Illusions is better for shatter burst damage making it better in PvP.

Chronomancer is geared towards being a defensive, support spec, quality of life spec. It has a ton of quickness and alacrity it can share to allies, shield is an amazing defensive weapon.

They're both direct upgrades to core mesmer but they're side grades to each other and incomparable. It's a similar care to Druid and Soulbeast, Berseker and Spellbreaker, Weaver and Tempest. That's the intent behind Elite Specializations.

As a Warrior main, I heavily disagree with Spellbreaker/Berserker being direct upgrades over Core Warrior.

Mostly due to how Burst are affected: neither Spellbreaker or Berserker can perform higher than level 1 Bursts when it comes to the traits Adrenal Health and Berserker’s Power. Being able to hit three stacks of each with one single Burst is a huge advantage that Core retains.

In return you instead get access to Full Counter and Primal Bursts respectively. I’d say Warrior specs are the definition of sidegrades as they sacrifice the potency of the core mechanic for their own, unique version of it.

They're still direct upgrades over core warrior in terms of performance. Berserker is better at condition damage and is the best DPS on larger targets for warrior. Spellbreaker is better at power damage and is the best DPS on small targets for warrior. Condition Berserker doesn't really care all that much about Berserker's Power and in scenarios where it can trigger Full Counter Spellbreaker has much better uptime with it than Core Warrior even if Core Warrior can get there in one burst. Both Spellbreaker and Berserker are direct upgrade's to warrior's performance.

I don't think you know what the argument here is. The OP has made it very clear, he's talking about the capabilities of the specs directly compared to the core specializations. He thinks both Berserker and Spellbreaker shouldn't be upgrades to Core Warrior in anyway, through Power Damage, Condition Damage, Survivability, Support, or Utility. He thinks both those Elite Specializations and all other Elite Specializations should be equal to their core counterparts.

You're too focused on damage and damage alone. Of course they're upgrades in terms of damage, but they are downgrades in other areas - which is what makes them sidegrades. The fact that Core allows you, for example, take the Defense traitline without gimping your offensive output gives it a huge advantage in beefiness (which is why Core is a popular over Spellbreaker/Berserker in WvW/PvP).

[mortrialus.3062]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

It depends. Just because you gain something over something else doesn't automatically mean upgrade. In your mirage example, if you gain more DPS by running 3 DPS lines rather than just 2, you're still giving up something, be it utility, sustain, cooldown reduction. By definition and how the trait lines are set up, you're always giving up something for something else. It's called opportunity cost.

That's why I wouldn't so simply measure DPS or whatever as the deciding factor for if something is an upgrade or not. It's what you gain vs what you lose/what it costs to use what you gain.

I literally know nothing about Mirage (for all I know, it is an Upgrade), but I'm sure there are other examples where the end product might result in a better version statistically but that can easily change if the numbers are tweeked. In which case, I suppose that means I'm more looking at the intent of the spec rather than its min/max performance.

Mirage Axe and it's Ambush Attack with Infinite Horizon is a direct upgrade for condition damage mesmers but the bulk of that comes from Axe actually being a good weapon for condition damage in PvE. Scepter in particular was really, really bad. Mirage let's you run Dueling+Mirage+Illusions/Chaos. Chaos is better sustained DPS in PvE, while Illusions is better for shatter burst damage making it better in PvP.

Chronomancer is geared towards being a defensive, support spec, quality of life spec. It has a ton of quickness and alacrity it can share to allies, shield is an amazing defensive weapon.

They're both direct upgrades to core mesmer but they're side grades to each other and incomparable. It's a similar care to Druid and Soulbeast, Berseker and Spellbreaker, Weaver and Tempest. That's the intent behind Elite Specializations.

As a Warrior main, I heavily disagree with Spellbreaker/Berserker being direct upgrades over Core Warrior.

Mostly due to how Burst are affected: neither Spellbreaker or Berserker can perform higher than level 1 Bursts when it comes to the traits Adrenal Health and Berserker’s Power. Being able to hit three stacks of each with one single Burst is a huge advantage that Core retains.

In return you instead get access to Full Counter and Primal Bursts respectively. I’d say Warrior specs are the definition of sidegrades as they sacrifice the potency of the core mechanic for their own, unique version of it.

They're still direct upgrades over core warrior in terms of performance. Berserker is better at condition damage and is the best DPS on larger targets for warrior. Spellbreaker is better at power damage and is the best DPS on small targets for warrior. Condition Berserker doesn't really care all that much about Berserker's Power and in scenarios where it can trigger Full Counter Spellbreaker has much better uptime with it than Core Warrior even if Core Warrior can get there in one burst. Both Spellbreaker and Berserker are direct upgrade's to warrior's performance.

I don't think you know what the argument here is. The OP has made it very clear, he's talking about the capabilities of the specs directly compared to the core specializations. He thinks both Berserker and Spellbreaker shouldn't be upgrades to Core Warrior in anyway, through Power Damage, Condition Damage, Survivability, Support, or Utility. He thinks both those Elite Specializations and all other Elite Specializations should be equal to their core counterparts.

You're too focused on damage and damage alone. Of course they're upgrades in terms of damage, but they are downgrades in other areas - which is what makes them sidegrades. The fact that Core allows you, for example, take the Defense traitline without gimping your offensive output gives it a huge advantage in beefiness (which is why Core is a popular over Spellbreaker/Berserker in WvW/PvP).

What are you talking about? Spellbreaker is omnipresent in SPvP. I haven't seen a single core warrior in platinum all season.

[ZDragon.3046]

Scrapper is more of the winner between all of these a close second could be seen as deadeye though. Everything else is a direct upgrade

[DeceiverX.8361]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

This is completely false. A lot ofANet posts in the old forums would also disagree.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/home/leaving?target=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.reddit.com%2Fr%2FGuildwars2%2Fcomments%2F3opycg%2Farenanet_unveil_the_future_of_competitive_guild%2Fcvzfp12%2F

Scrapper, while probably the closest thing, is still leagues better than core engi in most PvP scenarios, so no vote for me. Most PvE people will have vastly different opinions of balance than PvP and WvW players, though.

[otto.5684]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at anything, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

I think it is more regarding the role and functionality. Any elite will always be better at something, but it is supposed to be something then class was not good at or changes the overall class functionality.

Among medium hp pool classes, I think the diversity is there except for soul beast. Soul beast is nothing more than a straight upgrade over core ranger. The merging with pet is not enough to differentiate the game play and is stronger then core ranger using condi builds, melee power builds or melee ranged builds. This is wrong design.

[Drakz.7051]

From a fight I had with a Holosmith I felt it was pretty bad. A regular engi can kite all day, may not kill but it can keep you busy whilst backup arrives and the Scrapper is tanky and due to poor balancing ended up being able to destroy.

This wasn't from rigorous testing though so may have just been a one off.

[mortrialus.3062]

@otto.5684 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

I think it is more regarding the role and functionality.

Any elite will always be better at something,

but it is supposed to be something then class was not good at or changes the overall class functionality.

Again, the argument from the OP is that they shouldn't be. You're arguing for him while arguing the exact opposite of the purpose of the thread.

[Leo G.4501]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

I think it is more regarding the role and functionality.

Any elite will always be better at something,

but it is supposed to be something then class was not good at or changes the overall class functionality.

Again, the argument from the OP is that they shouldn't be. You're arguing for him while arguing the exact opposite of the purpose of the thread.

The only way to be a side grade is to be better at something than core. If it weren't, it would be a redundant copy.

At this point, we're arguing semantics. If you honestly feel that if an elite spec does something better than core, no other context, that automatically makes it an upgrade, that is the end of this discussion.

Btw, the OP didn't argue anything, it stated the prospect of sidegrade and upgrade and asked poster opinion. It said nothing about should or shouldn't.