Which specs are actual "sidegrades"? (adventurer edition)

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

I think it is more regarding the role and functionality.

Any elite will always be better at something,

but it is supposed to be something then class was not good at or changes the overall class functionality.

Again, the argument from the OP is that they shouldn't be. You're arguing for him while arguing the exact opposite of the purpose of the thread.

The only way to be a side grade is to be better at something than core. If it weren't, it would be a redundant copy.

At this point, we're arguing semantics. If you honestly feel that if an elite spec does something better than core, no other context, that automatically makes it an upgrade, that is the end of this discussion.

Btw, the OP didn't argue anything, it stated the prospect of sidegrade and upgrade and asked poster opinion. It said nothing about should or shouldn't.

That's literally what I said. Is this directed to me or are you just adding to what I've said because it's weird to direct my argument at me in a way that's presented like you're disagreeing with me.

I think that not only are Elite Specializations direct upgrades to Core ones, I think that's a good thing and they should be direct upgrades. It's almost impossible for the elite spec to be good and not be a direct upgrade. However I think Elite specializations should be sidegrades to each other, which all of them currently are.

And yes, the OP did argue that only Scrapper lived up to being a sidegrade to Engineer because Scrapper isn't better than Engineer at anything and presented it as the ideal model for Elite Specializations.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

I don't particularly agree. The elite specs

are

meant to enhance a specific aspect of the class beyond what is normally capable but usually at some cost or loss of something else. Tempest does give you upgraded attunement buttons but the cost is the cast time and cooldown it adds, Spellbreaker does upgrade your class bar by adding an extra counter button but you give up the ability to use bursts effects above 1 bar.

I personally think Deadeye seemed more a side-grade than Daredevil because DD didn't give anything up or pay anything for what it gets but Deadeye looses the ability to shadowstep to the target with steal and traded its normal steal skills for its malice marks.

Haven't played Holo and not much Scrapper, haven't touched Druid either but Soulbeast feels like an upgrade as you just get more ways to manage your pet + more skills to play with + on-merg effects in conjunction with your pet commands and on pet-swap traits...but even as an upgrade, I don't think people perceive it as more powerful than Druid which seems also like an upgrade...

Scrapper is most definitively not an upgrade to core engineer. Core engineer can outdamage it, both power and condi. Scrapper is just better at tanking, that's about it.@Vagrant.7206 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Hey everyone.

I was thinking about e-specs today, and some of the intention behind them was to make them sidegrades, not direct upgrades. So which e-specs do you think actually met that goal?

This poll is about the medium classes. I would say of the medium classes, scrapper is the closest to a sidegrade. Scrapper is only superior to core engineer in one aspect: Tankiness. Otherwise, it is not a damage increase, nor a utility increase.

They've always been upgrades to core classes by design. The idea that elite specs are never going to enhance a specific aspect of a class beyond what it's already capable of is nonsense. That was never their intent. Otherwise the spec would have zero place in the game.

They're sidegrades to other elite specializations, which are all designed with unique rolls from each other.

I don't particularly agree. The elite specs

are

meant to enhance a specific aspect of the class beyond what is normally capable but usually at some cost or loss of something else. Tempest does give you upgraded attunement buttons but the cost is the cast time and cooldown it adds, Spellbreaker does upgrade your class bar by adding an extra counter button but you give up the ability to use bursts effects above 1 bar.

I personally think Deadeye seemed more a side-grade than Daredevil because DD didn't give anything up or pay anything for what it gets but Deadeye looses the ability to shadowstep to the target with steal and traded its normal steal skills for its malice marks.

Haven't played Holo and not much Scrapper, haven't touched Druid either but Soulbeast feels like an upgrade as you just get more ways to manage your pet + more skills to play with + on-merg effects in conjunction with your pet commands and on pet-swap traits...but even as an upgrade, I don't think people perceive it as more powerful than Druid which seems also like an upgrade...

Scrapper is most definitively not an upgrade to core engineer. Core engineer can outdamage it, both power and condi. Scrapper is just better at tanking, that's about it.

Which means it's a direct upgrade to its defense. It's mechanics dont intersect with core engi, making it a direct upgrade (stomp/rez gyro addition).

Not really. Core engineer has access to a lot of defense as well, but it's hard to play defensively as engineer while maintaining offense. Scrapper allows you to do both, but it's not really an improvement over either.

And function gyro? Really? That's the straight upgrade we're going with? Sure, I guess, even though its use outside of PvP is severely limited.

[Leo G.4501]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Almost by definition, if an elite spec is good at

anything

, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class. Let's just say that the Mirage trait line was equal in power to the Duelist and Chaos trait lines in terms of it's potency with condition damage just as a complete hypothetical. By definition Mirage is a direct improvement over core Mesmer DPS because now you're able to run three trait lines that all buff your condition damage.

Scrapper is 100% an upgrade to Engineer's defensive capabilities. Just by virtue of being able to three defensively orientated trait lines at once. It's just that specific type of survivability isn't encouraged in PvE.

I think it is more regarding the role and functionality.

Any elite will always be better at something,

but it is supposed to be something then class was not good at or changes the overall class functionality.

Again, the argument from the OP is that they shouldn't be. You're arguing for him while arguing the exact opposite of the purpose of the thread.

The only way to be a side grade is to be better at something than core. If it weren't, it would be a redundant copy.

At this point, we're arguing semantics. If you honestly feel that if an elite spec does something better than core, no other context, that automatically makes it an upgrade, that is the end of this discussion.

Btw, the OP didn't argue anything, it stated the prospect of sidegrade and upgrade and asked poster opinion. It said nothing about should or shouldn't.

That's literally what I said. Is this directed to me or are you just adding to what I've said because it's weird to direct my argument at me in a way that's presented like you're disagreeing with me.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said. You argued "if an elite spec is good at anything, equal in power to another trait line that does a similar thing, it's a direct upgrade to the class..." while I said "The only way to be a side grade is to be better at something than core..."

That isn't literally what you said. You're arguing from the perspective, if the trait line can be blended/played in a way that makes it do something better than core, it is an upgrade but fail to understand that an opportunity cost is still paid to blend that spec to perform that way and if it wasn't able to perform in some way to make it stand out from other specs, it would basically be an underperforming or redundant version of the core spec.

You're defining sidegrade differently which is the root of the dissonance here.

[eldrjth.7384]

I think DE is good for pistols rather than rifle and P/P DE is great of open world where you can give yourself perm quickness/25 might/fury when there is enough trash mobs around. On the other hand rifle doesnt get much use from me. The fact that youre immobile while you do your serious dmg is too great a hindrance and is significantly worse than staying in melee range with all the template attacks you need to avoid not to mention it lacks the cleave and you want to stick to the group for heals and buffs rather than be on your own.

[Rhyse.8179]

There are no sidegrades, only power creep.

Deadeye is maybe an exception, because it's extremely good but only within an extremely narrow niche, which is kind of what things should be. All others are clear upgrades to core.