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[Suggestion] Balancing Condition Damage


Redponey.8352

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Hi,I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with
protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention(sorry for my english)

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@EUmad.7645 said:why not delete all condition builds and let only power ones ? it is simpler and faster. remove every condition from games and transmute every weapon on power. Would you be happy with that ?

I would be happy with that tbh. I hate playing and fighting against condi builds because it just feels so cheap, poorly balanced, and spam to win.

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I'm not angry about necro and condition damage , but more on the fact that is no fun at all and it rely on 1 attribute instead of at least 2or 3. It's funny to see how a robutness vitality condi will destroy you so easily with random dodge and tanking your dps , because he has 30k hp and more than 3k armor which is more than my frontline gardian. Anet has always explain their change by the reason of «balancing» but do nothing about this ...

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@X T D.6458 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

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Condies arent op. Take arcdps, set dps to incoming, click individually on players. You'll see how much damage they are taking from which source. Just because you saw 10 condies on you and died 2 seconds after, doesnt mean you got killed by condies. Only 2 of them (torment and burn) are doing some impactful damage, everything else is just movement/utility based.

There's a reason why scourges who play with cele/grieving have a lot more damage output than viper/tb ones.

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@X T D.6458 said:

@EUmad.7645 said:why not delete all condition builds and let only power ones ? it is simpler and faster. remove every condition from games and transmute every weapon on power. Would you be happy with that ?

I would be happy with that tbh. I hate playing and fighting against condi builds because it just feels so cheap, poorly balanced, and spam to win.

I agree. And I don't like playing as condi, either - I only have experience playing condi with 5 builds and none of them were as engaging as power:

Chill Shout Reaper pre-PoF = no need for a target, spam shouts, marks, shroud4 on cooldownScourge = no need for a target, spam marks, scepter 3, torch 4, f1-f5 on cooldownBurn DH pre-staff change = slight need for target if you felt like using LB auto, spam staff auto, CF, and babygates on cooldownD/D Thief = 3, dodge, 3, dodge, 3, dodge, 3, heal, dodge, 3, dodge /sleepMace/Shield/LB Berserker Pre-nerf = Only need target for mace f1, otherwise spam LB skills on cooldown...

It is ridiculous how much less focused you need to be while playing stuff like this and still be very effective. At least you Hammer Rev's have to aim your stupid CoR's...

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@steki.1478 said:Condies arent op. Take arcdps, set dps to incoming, click individually on players. You'll see how much damage they are taking from which source. Just because you saw 10 condies on you and died 2 seconds after, doesnt mean you got killed by condies. Only 2 of them (torment and burn) are doing some impactful damage, everything else is just movement/utility based.

There's a reason why scourges who play with cele/grieving have a lot more damage output than viper/tb ones.

They are not in them self op (all though with in the condi dmg effects they are much definitely not equal) its the means of applying them that are op or the skill that use them as there main dmg type. If your applying many stacks at once of different types of condi and able to hid the condis from clears (that are way UP atm) as well as able to deal with boons that counter such dmg then you have a real balancing problem.

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You forgot to mention that though Vitality is the "natural" defensive stat counter to condis, you also sort of need healing power to actually help your sustain. Meanwhile, against power, simply having Toughness also increases the effectiveness of your healing.

But as was mentioned, you're probably exaggerating how much damage condis are actually doing to you, unless you are against some sort of high octane burn build or blow yourself up on confusion stacks against condi mes (is that still a thing?)

Either way, this has been a GW2 topic since the game released. In fact, I laughed out loud to see this topic on the front page of WvW after not playing for a couple years. Last time I did the analysis, in an attempt to prove that condis did too much damage, I ended up convincing myself they were in a pretty good place. There are just a few builds that really blow you up with condis. Considering Thieves are still in the game critting for 9k out of stealth or while vaulting around like clowns, and shatter Mes is as bursty out of nowhere as ever, I don't particularly see the issue with condis.

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@"Martimus.6027" said:"I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

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  • If I play full Berserker and get up close to an opponent and land my burst, they die (barring some passive invuln trait).
  • If I play full Viper and get close up to an opponent and land my burst .. they cleanse it instantly.. so I have to do it again, and again, and again, and again until they finally have no cleanses left. This takes a really long time (at least for engi).

Now, landing the condi burst (on Engi) is more difficult than landing the power burst and it's on a medium-long cooldown.

... so why would I play Viper if I'm not getting anything out of it? You need that extra tankiness to survive to land your burst many times whereas power doesn't need that because the fight is over as soon as you land it once.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@EUmad.7645 said:why not delete all condition builds and let only power ones ? it is simpler and faster. remove every condition from games and transmute every weapon on power. Would you be happy with that ?

I would be happy with that tbh. I hate playing and fighting against condi builds because it just feels so cheap, poorly balanced, and spam to win.

I agree. And I don't like playing
as
condi, either - I only have experience playing condi with 5 builds and none of them were as engaging as power:

Chill Shout Reaper pre-PoF = no need for a target, spam shouts, marks, shroud4 on cooldownScourge = no need for a target, spam marks, scepter 3, torch 4, f1-f5 on cooldownBurn DH pre-staff change = slight need for target if you felt like using LB auto, spam staff auto, CF, and babygates on cooldownD/D Thief = 3, dodge, 3, dodge, 3, dodge, 3, heal, dodge, 3, dodge /sleepMace/Shield/LB Berserker Pre-nerf = Only need target for mace f1, otherwise spam LB skills on cooldown...

It is ridiculous how much
less
focused you need to be while playing stuff like this and still be very effective. At least you Hammer Rev's have to aim your stupid CoR's...

Yea its also really boring to play heh. But I try to adapt and stay up to date so it changes over time as we get new balance updates. I really miss playing Vanilla well Necro :)

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@"Martimus.6027" said:"I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

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@X T D.6458 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

Well no what we are talking about is support effect hitting other ppl that is different then self support or tankly support. There no other counter aoe effect like this in the game and it simply dose not fit the class that has it. If it was on a necro or a mez yes it would fit (maybe null field should stop boons) but on a class that only made to do power dmg it dose not sit right.

A hard counter to condi is clears and resistances. A lot of ppl would say these are not true hard counters and there realty no hard counter to condis over all in gw2 (that what 3 years ish of buffing with no nerfs would do) but to take away these counters by stopping boon application or even convicting them into condis to cover over the dmg is taking it too far.

Winds of disenchantment need to let you apply the boon for .1 sec to get the effect of application and nothing else and boon corruption needs to be much harder to get i would go as far as to say only a few skills should be boon corruption and what we have now should be simple boon strip.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Martimus.6027" said:"I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

Sadly last update of boon tables of corrupt was a major buff to condi classes over all. So much so that it comply removed a counter to condi from the game. All corrupt from necro but say 2 - 3 skills need to be boon strips. Any thing less then that your going to have significant problems. Boon corruption should be one of the rares effects in the game.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

Well no what we are talking about is support effect hitting other ppl that is different then self support or tankly support. There no other counter aoe effect like this in the game and it simply dose not fit the class that has it. If it was on a necro or a mez yes it would fit (maybe null field should stop boons) but on a class that only made to do power dmg it dose not sit right.

A hard counter to condi is clears and resistances. A lot of ppl would say these are not true hard counters and there realty no hard counter to condis over all in gw2 (that what 3 years ish of buffing with no nerfs would do) but to take away these counters by stopping boon application or even convicting them into condis to cover over the dmg is taking it too far.

Winds of disenchantment need to let you apply the boon for .1 sec to get the effect of application and nothing else and boon corruption needs to be much harder to get i would go as far as to say only a few skills should be boon corruption and what we have now should be simple boon strip.

@"Martimus.6027" said:"I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

Sadly last update of boon tables of corrupt was a major buff to condi classes over all. So much so that it comply removed a counter to condi from the game. All corrupt from necro but say 2 - 3 skills need to be boon strips. Any thing less then that your going to have significant problems. Boon corruption should be one of the rares effects in the game.

It shouldn't be rare. BUT, the table does need tweaks. Stability and swiftness should both go to either cripple or chill. Not immobilize.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

Well no what we are talking about is support effect hitting other ppl that is different then self support or tankly support. There no other counter aoe effect like this in the game and it simply dose not fit the class that has it. If it was on a necro or a mez yes it would fit (maybe null field should stop boons) but on a class that only made to do power dmg it dose not sit right.

A hard counter to condi is clears and resistances. A lot of ppl would say these are not true hard counters and there realty no hard counter to condis over all in gw2 (that what 3 years ish of buffing with no nerfs would do) but to take away these counters by stopping boon application or even convicting them into condis to cover over the dmg is taking it too far.

Winds of disenchantment need to let you apply the boon for .1 sec to get the effect of application and nothing else and boon corruption needs to be much harder to get i would go as far as to say only a few skills should be boon corruption and what we have now should be simple boon strip.

@"Martimus.6027" said:"I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

Sadly last update of boon tables of corrupt was a major buff to condi classes over all. So much so that it comply removed a counter to condi from the game. All corrupt from necro but say 2 - 3 skills need to be boon strips. Any thing less then that your going to have significant problems. Boon corruption should be one of the rares effects in the game.

It shouldn't be rare. BUT, the table does need tweaks. Stability and swiftness should both go to either cripple or chill. Not immobilize.

It realty should be rare because its a +1 and -1 effect vs a boon strip and realty most skill being just a +1 OR -1 not a double out put effect. Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption should be about all the corruption in the game.

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@Hoodie.1045 said:

It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

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@Cogbyrn.7283 said:

It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ One of these things is not like the other - one of these things can be successful in gear that gives both vitality and toughness ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫

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@Turk.5460 said:

It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ One of these things is not like the other - one of these things can be successful in gear that gives both vitality
and
toughness ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫

And the other thing doesn't need Vitality or Toughness in many cases because of how much active mitigation, mobility, and other escape methods (Stealth) is at their disposal.

At this point it's just tribalism. If you aren't going to at least extend an olive branch that Shatter Mes and Power Thief builds can detonate you out of nowhere with minimal effort, then you just aren't interested in actual balance.

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@Cogbyrn.7283 said:

It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ One of these things is not like the other - one of these things can be successful in gear that gives both vitality
and
toughness ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫

And the other thing doesn't need Vitality or Toughness in many cases because of how much active mitigation, mobility, and other escape methods (Stealth) is at their disposal.

At this point it's just tribalism. If you aren't going to at least extend an olive branch that Shatter Mes and Power Thief builds can detonate you out of nowhere with minimal effort, then you just aren't interested in actual balance.

Sure, the combo's to achieve a burst from power generally require little effort, but still more than condi bursts. On top of that, condi builds generally have FAR more room for error should their burst be mitigated, or if their opponent counter-attacks immediately. There is no contest for who has it easier in terms of survivability and misplays...

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