[Suggestion] Balancing Condition Damage

[coro.3176]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Redponey.8352 said:Hi,I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with

protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention(sorry for my english)

Disagree OP, play both power and condi builds and right now they feel pretty balanced to each other. Wouldn't be looking for changes and there are other balancing issues would prefer the devs to be working on class by class.

Agree that condi builds are pretty balanced now for most classes.Even for classes with low covering condis like Guardians.The changes to Cleansing Sigil and Anti-toxin runes plus a few other synergies to the classes has made it easier to handle condi foes.There is now a nice balance between condi application rate and condi cleanses available to most classes.

Disagree though that power is balanced.The reason why Condi builds are not very popular now is because Power is currently overtuned.Condi application has been balanced by increased ease of access to condi clears.However, Power damage has increased but not been mitigated by toughness which still remained at its old values.Toughness/Armor needs to have its damage reduction values increased.

The changes to Cleansing Sigl and Antitoxin with the other synergies make condi damage effectively impossible. Let me lay it out for you.

As a Support Scrapper with antitoxin runes, I can cleanse

• 10 conditions every 20s with Purge Gyro, plus 2 more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 10 conditions every 12s with Fumigate (only allies)
• 2 conditions every 20s with Super Elixir, plus 2 more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 2 conditions every 17s with Bandage Self and the Cleansing Synergy trait (self)
• 8 conditions every 15s with Cleansing Field (self and allies)
• 4 conditions every 9s if I equip sigil of cleansing (self)

So, assuming 1 combo in each light field (not unreasonable), I can cleanse approximately 43 condi per 20s from nearby allies, and 36.5 condi per 20s from myself.

That. Is. Madness.

oh, and all of those conditions cleared are converted to boons

oh, and I'm personally taking 25% less condi duration from the antitoxin runes in the extremely unlikely chance a condi sticks long enough to actually tick damage

As a condi build, how am I ever going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?

Condi is literally unplayable vs that amount of cleanse.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Problem with condi is the game is not only in a burst meta, the players are way more excepting of high burst playstyle than condi so right now the prob isn't condi doesnt do enough dps it's more so ur dead long before ur ramp up in most cases but if Condit's ttk ratio was brought up for most condi builds to down a opponent before being quickly burst down themselves condi would be considered far too OP due to high dps ticks over time.burst dps needs to be lowered to close the gap between how effective each is.

[coro.3176]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Problem with condi is the game is not only in a burst meta, the players are way more excepting of high burst playstyle than condi so right now the prob isn't condi doesnt do enough dps it's more so ur dead long before ur ramp up in most cases but if Condit's ttk ratio was brought up for most condi builds to down a opponent before being quickly burst down themselves condi would be considered far too OP due to high dps ticks over time.burst dps needs to be lowered to close the gap between how effective each is.

Condi's ttk would basically have to be removed entirely and replaced with power damage of the same type in order to balance it at this point considering the amount of cleanse supports have access to.

see my example with support scrapper here:

@coro.3176 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Redponey.8352 said:Hi,I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with

protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention(sorry for my english)

Disagree OP, play both power and condi builds and right now they feel pretty balanced to each other. Wouldn't be looking for changes and there are other balancing issues would prefer the devs to be working on class by class.

Agree that condi builds are pretty balanced now for most classes.Even for classes with low covering condis like Guardians.The changes to Cleansing Sigil and Anti-toxin runes plus a few other synergies to the classes has made it easier to handle condi foes.There is now a nice balance between condi application rate and condi cleanses available to most classes.

Disagree though that power is balanced.The reason why Condi builds are not very popular now is because Power is currently overtuned.Condi application has been balanced by increased ease of access to condi clears.However, Power damage has increased but not been mitigated by toughness which still remained at its old values.Toughness/Armor needs to have its damage reduction values increased.

The changes to Cleansing Sigl and Antitoxin with the other synergies make condi damage effectively impossible. Let me lay it out for you.

As a Support Scrapper with antitoxin runes, I can cleanse

• 10
  conditions every 20s with Purge Gyro, plus
  2
  more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 10
  conditions every 12s with Fumigate (only allies)
• 2
  conditions every 20s with Super Elixir, plus
  2
  more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 2
  conditions every 17s with Bandage Self and the Cleansing Synergy trait (self)
• 8
  conditions every 15s with Cleansing Field (self and allies)
• 4
  conditions every 9s if I equip sigil of cleansing (self)

So, assuming 1 combo in each light field (not unreasonable), I can cleanse approximately

43

condi per 20s from nearby allies, and

36.5

condi per 20s from myself.

That. Is.

Madness

.

oh, and all of those conditions cleared are converted to boons

oh, and I'm personally taking 25% less condi duration from the antitoxin runes in the extremely unlikely chance a condi sticks long enough to actually tick damage

As a condi build, how am I

ever

going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?

Condi is literally unplayable vs that amount of cleanse.

[Dawdler.8521]

@coro.3176 said:As a condi build, how am I ever going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?Well... are you supposed to?

Condi is very playable in other situations, such as solo and smallscale against many builds. But it's not going to be perfect against everything. That's why it's just a build and not an omnipotent divinity perfectly suited to all threats in all situations.

[coro.3176]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:As a condi build, how am I

ever

going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?Well...

are you supposed to

?

Condi is very playable in other situations, such as solo and smallscale against many builds. But it's not going to be perfect against everything. That's why it's just a build and not an omnipotent divinity perfectly suited to all threats in all situations.

But you are equally screwed if any of your opponents in smallscale happens to be a support scrapper or someone with even half that much cleanse.

Even just the added cleanse from sigil of cleansing can make for a very tough fight vs some opponents.

By making condi irrelevant in any fight that may have a support class, it's like throwing away a huge portion of GW2's combat complexity and depth.

Eg. blinds to counter bursts,Eg. cripple to slow enemy movement,Eg. poison to counter healingEg. vulnerability to increase damageEg. weakness to counter power damageetc. etc.

All of that is just rendered ineffective and forgotten in zerg play because of the amount of cleanse.

[Dawdler.8521]

@coro.3176 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:As a condi build, how am I

ever

going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?Well...

are you supposed to

?

Condi is very playable in other situations, such as solo and smallscale against many builds. But it's not going to be perfect against everything. That's why it's just a build and not an omnipotent divinity perfectly suited to all threats in all situations.

But you are equally screwed if any of your opponents in smallscale happens to be a support scrapper or someone with even half that much cleanse.

Even just the added cleanse from sigil of cleansing can make for a very tough fight vs some opponents.Well...

are we here for easy fights

?

Support scrappers cant barely touch my condi scrapper and if they support someone I ignore them and focus fire the other. If it's 2v2 or higher all I need to do is pull and suppress while a friendly power build dish out the pain. If we're both condi that pull will generally result in 30%+ loss of hp a second. Good luck to the support scrapper to mend that. Once whatever dps there is dies then killing the support scrapper - or just continue to ignore him as he will no doubt flee - is trivial. Per build design they are pretty much all defensive. I have not seen anyone do a heal/power or heal/condi build good in either area.

Its not really a "problem" until we're talking 10+ fb+scrapper+spellbreaker meleeball guilds running so tight you have to wonder if they are sewn together at the hips but in that case... you're not built for it.

[coro.3176]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:As a condi build, how am I

ever

going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?Well...

are you supposed to

?

Condi is very playable in other situations, such as solo and smallscale against many builds. But it's not going to be perfect against everything. That's why it's just a build and not an omnipotent divinity perfectly suited to all threats in all situations.

But you are equally screwed if any of your opponents in smallscale happens to be a support scrapper or someone with even half that much cleanse.

Even just the added cleanse from sigil of cleansing can make for a very tough fight vs some opponents.Well...

are we here for easy fights

?

Support scrappers cant barely touch my condi scrapper and if they support someone I ignore them and focus fire the other. If it's 2v2 or higher all I need to do is pull and suppress while a friendly power build dish out the pain. If we're both condi that pull will generally result in 30%+ loss of hp a second. Good luck to the support scrapper to mend that. Once whatever dps there is dies then killing the support scrapper - or just continue to ignore him as he will no doubt flee - is trivial. Per build design they are pretty much all defensive. I have not seen anyone do a heal/power or heal/condi build good in either area.

Its not really a "problem" until we're talking 10+ fb+scrapper+spellbreaker meleeball guilds running so tight you have to wonder if they are sewn together at the hips but in that case... you're not built for it.

We can debate effectiveness in smallscale - Yes, I've killed my share of scrappers on my condi build, but I know this is because they were bad or inexperienced (I can see them making mistakes and wasting cleanses that would have kept them alive if they rationed it out over the fight). I personally think a good support scrapper + a good small scale dps (eg. revenant, soulbeast) would easily beat .. say, 2 condi engi, simply because the support scrapper cleanses something like .. 43 condi per 20s, and the condi engis put out maybe 7 or 8 different / repeating condi in that same time period, assuming all attacks hit. Also, they stack with each other, so it doesn't matter if both engis land their blowtorches. It gets cleansed just as easily.

.. but that's beside the point.

My main complaint here is that Scrapper cleanse (and support in general - Tempest and FB can build for some pretty crazy cleanse too) is so good that it renders a massive chunk of core game mechanics completely ineffective.

Well... are we here for easy fights?

I mean, I'm cool with an uphill battle. I just want it to be in principle winnable if I play correctly. I don't want to be completely locked out of ever sticking any damage.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I think it would be fair if Antitoxin Rune's 6-piece bonus changed to:Cleanse one additional condition when using a skill that cleanses conditions. Its current form has far too much synergy with pulsing clears. This would still make it effective at managing conditions, but not absurdly so. For clarity, this would mean that Purge Gyro, for example, would cleanse a maximum of 6 conditions. It would probably stop seeing use in zerg-play, which honestly I think is fine and dandy.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"coro.3176" said:We can debate effectiveness in smallscale - Yes, I've killed my share of scrappers on my condi build, but I know this is because they were bad or inexperienced (I can see them making mistakes and wasting cleanses that would have kept them alive if they rationed it out over the fight). I personally think a good support scrapper + a good small scale dps (eg. revenant, soulbeast) would easily beat .. say, 2 condi engi, simply because the support scrapper cleanses something like .. 43 condi per 20s, and the condi engis put out maybe 7 or 8 different / repeating condi in that same time period, assuming all attacks hit. Also, they stack with each other, so it doesn't matter if both engis land their blowtorches. It gets cleansed just as easily.Easily beat how, you'd just run away from them lol. One dps will have a hard time killing 2 condi bunkers, not "easily beat" them. As those 2 condi engies, I'd still be far more afraid to fight warrior+warrior combos (ie immortal and 20s lockdowns, gg fighting double zerker stance), holo + holo (permastun insane damage up the kitten) etc. Literally any combo is more dangerous in the field if they actually want to get kills. The support + dps combo will also be exceedingly poor at fighting outmanned, everyone will just focus fire one of them and no amount of cleanses and heals will help while the combo in turn wont really have the damage to hurt their attackers. You can see practical ratios by looking at both smallscale melee balls (5-10) and zerg parties. It wont be 50/50 support/dps. It'l be more like 80/20, because they need to hide that dps. Cant exactly do that in a group of two where one of them is the obvious support and the other is the obvious dps.

Different builds, different purposes. What's strong in some areas is weak in others.