After passive nerfs, the time has come to nerf CC

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Specialka.7290 said:Not just CC, conditions overall shoud be nerf as well.No, they shouldn't, most professions don't even have viable conditions builds as it is. You're just getting mad at one of the handful still afloat (read: probably scourge) and being irrational about it.

[Specialka.7290]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Specialka.7290 said:Not just CC, conditions overall shoud be nerf as well.No, they shouldn't, most professions don't even have viable conditions builds as it is. You're just getting mad at one of the handful still afloat (read: probably scourge) and being irrational about it.

And currently the most OP professions are based on that. Overall, conditions reminds me on the golden age of warlock on Wow. Just put your dots on the enemy and watch him wither. Kinda the same deal here. You may have condition cleanse, but you do not have enough to deal with everything they throw at you, and ultimately you will die because you need to stay on your target to deal dmg, while they do not need to.

[Math.5123]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Specialka.7290 said:Not just CC, conditions overall shoud be nerf as well.No, they shouldn't, most professions don't even have viable conditions builds as it is. You're just getting mad at one of the handful still afloat (read: probably scourge) and being irrational about it.

Scourge, condi mirage and daredevil. These three classes may be 33% of the total amount of classes, but they still occupy around 70% of the gw2 population.

[Vieux P.1238]

To OP, you really think anoth nerf was done on passives? Really? Breaking news for you.. NOT EVEN CLOSE! WE don't need a nerf on passives we need a full removal.

[ugrakarma.9416]

In other games, the CC masters have near 0 damage, so class stacking is punished. In my view the balacing team should ask the following question, "Can a team win stacking the X class"? if yes, its mean the class is unbalanced.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

@Vieux P.1238 said:To OP, you really think anoth nerf was done on passives? Really? Breaking news for you.. NOT EVEN CLOSE! WE don't need a nerf on passives we need a full removal.

The nerfs did make an impact, and the thoughts behind the nerfs were reasonable as well. So basically the opposite of a lot of other patches. I know from a ranger perspective for example, that the refined toxins and protective ward nerfs were significant.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Any nerf of CC at this point would result in CC being unusable in pvp.

This ^

Asking them to overhaul the CC system at this point would create such a tremendous amount of balance issues that it wouldn't be worth it.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Any nerf of CC at this point would result in CC being unusable in pvp.

This ^

Asking them to overhaul the CC system at this point would create such a tremendous amount of balance issues that it wouldn't be worth it.

Tell us why? CC can just be spammed now, just like passives were spammed. I don't see why altering this wouldn't promote more healthy gameplay. You have to start somewhere. If something would cause balance issues it should not immediately be off the table. Doing nothing causes balance issues as well, which is easily illustrated by the current season.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Any nerf of CC at this point would result in CC being unusable in pvp.

This ^

Asking them to overhaul the CC system at this point would create such a tremendous amount of balance issues that it wouldn't be worth it.

Tell us why? CC can just be spammed now, just like passives were spammed. I don't see why altering this wouldn't promote more healthy gameplay. You have to start somewhere. If something would cause balance issues it should not immediately be off the table. Doing nothing causes balance issues as well, which is easily illustrated by the current season.

Okay.

Let's do it.

Increase the cooldown of CC-skills.

Let's say all CC skills were increased by 20%. Every Skill in the game that does pull, launch, knockdown, knockback, stun. petrify and float all get a significant cd increase. Immediately, all classes with low mobility suffer because classes with kiting potential, stability with faster uptime than the stun uptimes, and ability to completely ignore stun by way of traits all become dramatically advantaged. You would need to balance the following.

Stability as a boon.

Mesmer, specifically Mirage.Thief (all variants)Guard (all variants)Warrior, specifically Zerker Warrior.Retribution Revenants.

If the CD is too high for these skills to be considered feasible, people will refuse to run them and will opt for more damage based skills. We will potentially move from the game state as it is now, where you can be stunlocked but have a chance to escape through wise use of stun breaks, to a game state where you will either melt immediately or be melted immediately.

The alternative is people who now have bunker builds only weak against stun will be more effective as tanks. Both of those situations would lead to the game being more frustrating immediately. To manage this, you'd need to balance:

ElementalistHolosmith/EngineerNecro (Core and scourge)

Invent something that makes it impossible to get CC-chained. For example: if you are dazed/stunned/launched you can't be dazed/stunned/launched again in the next 3 seconds or something.

This benefits the highly mobile and the bunker classes as stated above.

Remove CC-skills from every weapon, and make them solely utility- or trait-based.

You would have to balance every single weapon in the game, and every traitline in the game. This would amount to a game overhaul.

Remove CC-skills from every utility and trait, and make them solely weapon-based.

You would have to balance every single weapon in the game, and every traitline in the game. This would amount to a game overhaul.

What seems easier? Taking an extra stunbreak, or renovating the game, given that Arenanet takes half a year to address balance issues if things run according to plan?

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:There is such a large amount of CC in this game, that it became toxic for pvp gameplay. Nerfing passives was a good step by Anet, but I think we can go a little further by nerfing CC as well. With all the power creep since HoT we need nerfs across the board. There are too many CC skills in PvP because they are very powerful and can be chained so that you can lock targets down easily. I'm talking about all the hard CC and immobilize here. A Holosmith dmg output is almost solely based on CC, which is just an example of how bad it is for overall gameplay. Chronos use daze, taunt, float, etc to lock down their targets. It makes a lot of builds on every class useless, because Stability access is very unequally spread across classes and traitlines.

Example: DruidI play Druid regularly, and that class also has quite some hard-CC on meta-builds:

• Longbow #4
• Smokescale knockdown
• CA #3
• CA #5
• Traited heal skill through ''Soften the Fall''
• Staff #4
• ''Ancient seeds'' trait

That is 7 hard-CC skills in 1 build, while none of them are above a 20-sec cooldown. Although some might oppose that Immobilize is hard-CC as it doesn't intterupt anything, I consider it hard-CC given how powerful it is. Druid is just an example of a class/build that has too much CC in it while still being viable at higher levels of PVP. If you consider a teamfight where different players can combine CC-skills on 1 target while only one attacking player already has 7 of them available.... it just doesn't promote fun and healthy gameplay.

We can look at some suggestions to improve this situation:

• Increase the cooldown of CC-skills.
• Invent something that makes it impossible to get CC-chained. For example: if you are dazed/stunned/launched you can't be dazed/stunned/launched again in the next 3 seconds or something.
• Remove CC-skills from every weapon, and make them solely utility- or trait-based.
• Remove CC-skills from every utility and trait, and make them solely weapon-based.
• .......

Increasing access to stability won't be a good solution, as boon-ripping and boon corruption becomes even more valuable.

I'm okay if you leave the core skills out of it. Like longbow 4 for ranger. If you are bussy with cc also start to nerf boons out again. It is to easy to stack 25 stacks of might on almost any class

[HeadCrowned.6834]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Any nerf of CC at this point would result in CC being unusable in pvp.

This ^

Asking them to overhaul the CC system at this point would create such a tremendous amount of balance issues that it wouldn't be worth it.

Tell us why? CC can just be spammed now, just like passives were spammed. I don't see why altering this wouldn't promote more healthy gameplay. You have to start somewhere. If something would cause balance issues it should not immediately be off the table. Doing nothing causes balance issues as well, which is easily illustrated by the current season.

Okay.

Let's do it.

Increase the cooldown of CC-skills.

Let's say all CC skills were increased by 20%. Every Skill in the game that does pull, launch, knockdown, knockback, stun. petrify and float all get a significant cd increase. Immediately, all classes with low mobility suffer because classes with kiting potential, stability with faster uptime than the stun uptimes, and ability to completely ignore stun by way of traits all become dramatically advantaged. You would need to balance the following.

Stability as a boon.

Mesmer, specifically Mirage.Thief (all variants)Guard (all variants)Warrior, specifically Zerker Warrior.Retribution Revenants.

If the CD is too high for these skills to be considered feasible, people will refuse to run them and will opt for more damage based skills. We will potentially move from the game state as it is now, where you can be stunlocked but have a chance to escape through wise use of stun breaks, to a game state where you will either melt immediately or be melted immediately.

The alternative is people who now have bunker builds only weak against stun will be more effective as tanks. Both of those situations would lead to the game being more frustrating immediately. To manage this, you'd need to balance:

ElementalistHolosmith/EngineerNecro (Core and scourge)

Invent something that makes it impossible to get CC-chained. For example: if you are dazed/stunned/launched you can't be dazed/stunned/launched again in the next 3 seconds or something.

This benefits the highly mobile and the bunker classes as stated above.

Remove CC-skills from every weapon, and make them solely utility- or trait-based.

You would have to balance every single weapon in the game, and every traitline in the game. This would amount to a game overhaul.

Remove CC-skills from every utility and trait, and make them solely weapon-based.

You would have to balance every single weapon in the game, and every traitline in the game. This would amount to a game overhaul.

What seems easier? Taking an extra stunbreak, or renovating the game, given that Arenanet takes half a year to address balance issues if things run according to plan?

Ofcourse I understand that just increasing some CC-skill cooldowns is not effective on its own. But making CC-skills less spammable and more meaningful when properly used should not be a goal that is considered too far away. CC-skills might be more intensive to alter than passives, because passives are just passives and with CC-skills you also have to consider stunbreaks and stability. If you think everything is ''fine'' now as it is there is no reason to discuss any further. But if you have some possible solutions it could be interesting. Think of both reducing CC as well as stability access and amount of stunbreaks.

[saerni.2584]

GW2 forums frequently have a “this one skill or couple of skills are op, nerf everything remotely related to that thing” mentality.

Scourge and condi Mesmer are strong = nerf all condi.

Holo and a few other builds can chain cc = nerf entire cc system.

It’s not going to happen because that requires too much development time. Your only options are (1) call for specific nerfs to certain abilities or traits or (2) call for buffs to help professions handle the cc better (keeping in mind that power creep is less likely to be implemented solely on a player’s say so.

[whoknocks.4935]

CC skills should be limited and have a proper animation, if I play right against a warrior I'm able to dodge every single cc he wanna land, especially shield stun and bull's charge skills are so easy to spot and dodge, a bit less dagger3 but you immediately stunbreak out of it and you won't have many problems.I dont mind holo cc as hell, pretty animated and easy to dodge.But when some profession have 7 ccs, it's just too much, can't have all stunbreaks in bar, or when ranger chain immob you it's just too stupid.Limiting cc skills will result in a game less spammy in which cc skills are used with critery on the right moment, same as stunbreaks, and not spammed random scourge style because they are so many and impossible to evade them all.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:Ofcourse I understand that just increasing some CC-skill cooldowns is not effective on its own. But making CC-skills less spammable and more meaningful when properly used should not be a goal that is considered too far away. CC-skills might be more intensive to alter than passives, because passives are just passives and with CC-skills you also have to consider stunbreaks and stability. If you think everything is ''fine'' now as it is there is no reason to discuss any further. But if you have some possible solutions it could be interesting. Think of both reducing CC as well as stability access and amount of stunbreaks.

Look carefully at your statement and realize that in your quest to reduce cc, you will need to reduce access to stability and stunbreaks just to rebalance everything.I think it's a lot of work for no reason, when most classes can spec for a stunbreak or stability when they need it. If you repeatedly get chain stunlocked by the same combo, learn from that and examine where to stunbreak. You're asking to overhaul the game because a couple of classes can chain stun you, while neglecting to realize that behavior serves as a stopgap for builds that would otherwise overperform.

I have not run into a situation reently where I was chain stunned such that I could not react against it on any class, with the exception of situations where I was clearly outplayed or not geared to fight the spec I was currently facing. The closest I have come to that kind of situation is on Revenant pre mallyx buff, and that was because I didnt play shiro (which has stunbreaks on demand, as long as you are in shiro and have the energy). Most classes have an option to deal with stuns, and repeatedly fighting the class you have trouble with will let you know what to dodge to avoid cc links.

Elusive mind should be testament to the fact that allowing people to ignore stuns has a threshold before it starts creating overperforming builds. If you think a class or a build is too stun heavy, focus on that class or build and we can go from there. Toning down all stun with such a hamfisted approach will break more than it fixes.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:Ofcourse I understand that just increasing some CC-skill cooldowns is not effective on its own. But making CC-skills less spammable and more meaningful when properly used should not be a goal that is considered too far away. CC-skills might be more intensive to alter than passives, because passives are just passives and with CC-skills you also have to consider stunbreaks and stability. If you think everything is ''fine'' now as it is there is no reason to discuss any further. But if you have some possible solutions it could be interesting. Think of both reducing CC as well as stability access and amount of stunbreaks.

Look carefully at your statement and realize that in your quest to reduce cc, you will need to reduce access to stability and stunbreaks just to rebalance everything.I think it's a lot of work for no reason, when most classes can spec for a stunbreak or stability when they need it. If you repeatedly get chain stunlocked by the same combo, learn from that and examine where to stunbreak. You're asking to overhaul the game because a couple of classes can chain stun you, while neglecting to realize that behavior serves as a stopgap for builds that would otherwise overperform.

I have not run into a situation reently where I was chain stunned such that I could not react against it on any class, with the exception of situations where I was clearly outplayed or not geared to fight the spec I was currently facing. The closest I have come to that kind of situation is on Revenant pre mallyx buff, and that was because I didnt play shiro (which has stunbreaks on demand, as long as you are in shiro and have the energy). Most classes have an option to deal with stuns, and repeatedly fighting the class you have trouble with will let you know what to dodge to avoid cc links.

Elusive mind should be testament to the fact that allowing people to ignore stuns has a threshold before it starts creating overperforming builds. If you think a class or a build is too stun heavy, focus on that class or build and we can go from there. Toning down all stun with such a hamfisted approach will break more than it fixes.

It is a lot of work, but not without reason. Everyone can indeed spec for stunbreaks and stability, but that is because it has become so mandatory: without it youre basically dead. Just a stupid example: one of the main reasons condi ranger won't work is because traps dont have a stunbreak. You really need a lot of stability and stunbreaks now because of all the CC, and not the other way around. I don't complain about a certain class or build such as holo specifically. My simple math example from the first post should illustrate enough. The whole abundance of CC is too much, not of 1 class specifically. Your tips are for beginners, which I am not. This discussion is about the state of PvP as a whole.

[Dralor.3701]

Isn’t damage the big problem with spvp? CC was less of an issue before because you could decide when to stun break vs eating some damage.

Now if you don’t stun break immediately you are eating dirt as every class is going to 100-0 you in the blink of an eye.

[Sinful.2165]

@Dralor.3701 said:Isn’t damage the big problem with spvp? CC was less of an issue before because you could decide when to stun break vs eating some damage.

Now if you don’t stun break immediately you are eating dirt as every class is going to 100-0 you in the blink of an eye.

The trouble is chain CC that locks you out of everything until you’re dead. That’s why it needs diminishing returns.. CC #1 is full duration, CC #2 is 75% duration, CC #3 is 50% duration. Just as an example.

[Dralor.3701]

That makes sense, I’m just saying it was less of an issue before when damage wasn’t so high.

[FyzE.3472]

@saerni.2584 said:GW2 forums frequently have a “this one skill or couple of skills are op, nerf everything remotely related to that thing” mentality.

Scourge and condi Mesmer are strong = nerf all condi.

Holo and a few other builds can chain cc = nerf entire cc system.

It’s not going to happen because that requires too much development time. Your only options are (1) call for specific nerfs to certain abilities or traits or (2) call for buffs to help professions handle the cc better (keeping in mind that power creep is less likely to be implemented solely on a player’s say so.

I think you are missing the last, most important part: (3) get ignored because no one cares