Barrier mechanic prevent crits or something?

[Sigmoid.7082]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:WvW has innately higher stats than sPvP which will bolster damage pretty dramatically into glass opponents. Scourge also gets the passive shroud 50% power damage reduction when using Sand Shroud. The log damage is the same but the DR is still applied.That's also kind of why it's OP. It still has all its weapon skills + shroud skills + utils to apply outgoing pressure and burst but also the sustain from utils/heal, the 50% DR, and the actual barrier itself, all at the same time.

Last I tested this didn't happen. I lost the appropriate amount of barrier for the hit it took.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:WvW has innately higher stats than sPvP which will bolster damage pretty dramatically into glass opponents. Scourge also gets the passive shroud 50% power damage reduction when using Sand Shroud. The log damage is the same but the DR is still applied.That's also kind of why it's OP. It still has all its weapon skills + shroud skills + utils to apply outgoing pressure and burst but also the sustain from utils/heal, the 50% DR, and the actual barrier itself, all at the same time.

Last I tested this didn't happen. I lost the appropriate amount of barrier for the hit it took.

Maybe specific to sPvP but it does in PvE and WvW.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:WvW has innately higher stats than sPvP which will bolster damage pretty dramatically into glass opponents. Scourge also gets the passive shroud 50% power damage reduction when using Sand Shroud. The log damage is the same but the DR is still applied.That's also kind of why it's OP. It still has all its weapon skills + shroud skills + utils to apply outgoing pressure and burst but also the sustain from utils/heal, the 50% DR, and the actual barrier itself, all at the same time.

Last I tested this didn't happen. I lost the appropriate amount of barrier for the hit it took.

Maybe specific to sPvP but it does in PvE and WvW.

Just tested in both game modes. Same result. Lost the exact amount of barrier I should have. No 50% reduction.

[Sampson.2403]

I definitely noticed this too. Last season on power mirage b4 the nerfs i could 1 shot a scourge if a majority lf the burst elements crit. With barrier up, even if i landed the entire burst, the amount of hp they'd have left never made any sense to me.

[shippage.1983]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:Agreed I definitely feel like something is reducing damage when a target has Barrier.

That's because barrier does take reduced damage. I can't find it on the wiki, but I remember the devs talking about it on their podcasts. I think it was something like 20% dmg reduced.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@shippage.1983 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:Agreed I definitely feel like something is reducing damage when a target has Barrier.

That's because barrier does take reduced damage. I can't find it on the wiki, but I remember the devs talking about it on their podcasts. I think it was something like 20% dmg reduced.

In Cal's screenshot he took the exact same amount of damage with or without barrier. Steady weapons don't have a weapon damage range, they have a weapon damage value meaning skills will always do the same damage.

Clearly you can see there is no difference between the numbers.

Even when I tested this this morning against an NPC in each game mode I lost the exact same amount of barrier as I took damage. It would be strange this behaviour was different for players.

If there is a particular set of circumstances that it doesn't behave that way it's a bug.

Do people actually test thing or go on feels.

[Rym.1469]

I have never noticed any behaviour like that. With Carl's info backing, I think we can safely shelve this thread.

[dominik.9721]

@"Cal Cohen.3527" said:This isn't a thing. I did see an issue when hitting a target with barrier where the red crit background is offset from the damage number which could cause some confusion, but crits are happening as expected. The combat log shows these crits correctly, and I've also confirmed that there's no hidden damage reduction by using a steady weapon internally.

Any appearance of a damage reduction is likely just weapon variance being noticed over a small sample. I'll get the damage floater bug written up and assigned to someone for investigation.

A damage migation defintly does exist, even if you proved that it's possible to do critical hits.If I do full burst combo with core guardian against a scourge with no barrier he is either oneshot or at around 5% hp.If I do the same combo against a scourge with like 5k barrier it barely removes the barrier and hits the hp pool for like 2k - so basically 7k instead of 15k+

Since the release of PoF it basically feels like you hit a target with protection + weakness on yourself when you hit a target with barrier (no matter how much barrier)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Tried recreating what we had seen from last season but the numbers were all accurate. I don't know if this bug was fixed or if it just isn't happening as frequently anymore, but I am 100% positive that last season Barriers were negating critical hits. We had a full guild effort testing this and began to stack Bloodsage Scourges because of it.

[KrHome.1920]

Maybe the yellow numbers confuse me whether I critical hit or not. But that does not matter. My damage is reduced A LOT, when I hit into barriers.

Have to test whether desert shroud has a 50% reduction. This would explain my low numbers.

[Cal Cohen.3527]

Desert Shroud doesn't have the same damage reduction that Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud do. If anyone has evidence that it does, I'd be interested to see it just in case there's an edge case bug somewhere, but there's probably a different explanation for these situations that you guys are seeing.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:Desert Shroud doesn't have the same damage reduction that Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud do. If anyone has evidence that it does, I'd be interested to see it just in case there's an edge case bug somewhere, but there's probably a different explanation for these situations that you guys are seeing.

Scourge has many different ways to apply weakness. That could be the reason why people aren't critting.

[Vegeta.2563]

I just feel like barrier needs a complete rework. Say you have 10 Scourges running together. They can basically cycle barrier on themselves and that is shared to their team mates over and over, and you'll barely be able to damage them. If you don't have enough people. Even just 1v1 I tried with P/P Deadeye using berserker stat gear with Be Quick or Be Killed trait so I had faster attacks, and unloaded 4 times.. Scourge had maybe 90% life left after that. Only to be healed back to 100% soon after and already was casting barrier again.

FeelsBadMan

[Lunateric.3708]

@Vegeta.2563 said:I just feel like barrier needs a complete rework. Say you have 10 Scourges running together. They can basically cycle barrier on themselves and that is shared to their team mates over and over, and you'll barely be able to damage them. If you don't have enough people. Even just 1v1 I tried with P/P Deadeye using berserker stat gear with Be Quick or Be Killed trait so I had faster attacks, and unloaded 4 times.. Scourge had maybe 90% life left after that. Only to be healed back to 100% soon after and already was casting barrier again.

FeelsBadMan

if you had 10 firebrands chaining aegis and reflects together it would be the same, if you had 10 druids you could outheal and kite anything.

Don't think balance should be made on that kind of thought, an arbitrary number of X

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:Desert Shroud doesn't have the same damage reduction that Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud do. If anyone has evidence that it does, I'd be interested to see it just in case there's an edge case bug somewhere, but there's probably a different explanation for these situations that you guys are seeing.

That's very interesting. As some others have mentioned above, when I hit a scourge with shroud/barrier up in WvW, its health bar barely moves. When I hit the same scourge without it, its health is removed as expected which is a substantial amount. I have sincere doubts the barrier is just that large when I'm hitting them; I'm notorious for playing a signet thief, and my backstabs regularly elevate into the 20-25k area on other professions. A scourge with any amount of barrier never seems to dip below 70% despite the combination of the 3-5k Mug, 10k CnD, and 20k+ backstab.

I know weakness will reduce crits to glancing blows, but these are still full-blown crits (floaters and damage log) and I don't know of anything that gives like .1s of weakness for me to not notice it at all when casting skills. I know in the case of the shroud DR, the logs don't reflect this reduced damage so I've just chalked it up to this.

I'll try and do some testing with some people later on if I can. Something definitely does feel a bit off, though.

[Crinn.7864]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:Desert Shroud doesn't have the same damage reduction that Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud do. If anyone has evidence that it does, I'd be interested to see it just in case there's an edge case bug somewhere, but there's probably a different explanation for these situations that you guys are seeing.

That's very interesting. As some others have mentioned above, when I hit a scourge with shroud/barrier up in WvW, its health bar barely moves. When I hit the same scourge without it, its health is removed as expected which is a substantial amount. I have sincere doubts the barrier is just that large when I'm hitting them; I'm notorious for playing a signet thief, and my backstabs regularly elevate into the 20-25k area on other professions. A scourge with any amount of barrier never seems to dip below 70% despite the combination of the 3-5k Mug, 10k CnD, and 20k+ backstab.

Do note that if a Savant Scourge has a shade out they get 15% flat damage reduction from the minor trait, on top of the fact that a WvW scourge is going to using either dire or trailblazer gear and will have 3k armor and between 27k to 30k health.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Vegeta.2563 said:I just feel like barrier needs a complete rework. Say you have 10 Scourges running together. They can basically cycle barrier on themselves and that is shared to their team mates over and over, and you'll barely be able to damage them. If you don't have enough people. Even just 1v1 I tried with P/P Deadeye using berserker stat gear with Be Quick or Be Killed trait so I had faster attacks, and unloaded 4 times.. Scourge had maybe 90% life left after that. Only to be healed back to 100% soon after and already was casting barrier again.

FeelsBadMan

if you had 10 firebrands chaining aegis and reflects together it would be the same, if you had 10 druids you could outheal and kite anything.

Don't think balance should be made on that kind of thought, an arbitrary number of X

10 Mesmers can also do this with rotation of spamming distortion (but takes massive coordination)

Scourges don't require that much coordination to pull off the same thing.

Is it overpowered?In your unrealistic example (10 scourges running as a group in WvW), you're still going 1v10.If you ran with 9 more PP Deadeyes like yourself, on coms, could you kill 10 scourges?or better yet 8 deadeyes and 2 medic support thieves.There ya go, sounds fair to me.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:Desert Shroud doesn't have the same damage reduction that Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud do. If anyone has evidence that it does, I'd be interested to see it just in case there's an edge case bug somewhere, but there's probably a different explanation for these situations that you guys are seeing.

That's very interesting. As some others have mentioned above, when I hit a scourge with shroud/barrier up in WvW, its health bar barely moves. When I hit the same scourge without it, its health is removed as expected which is a substantial amount. I have sincere doubts the barrier is just that large when I'm hitting them; I'm notorious for playing a signet thief, and my backstabs regularly elevate into the 20-25k area on other professions. A scourge with any amount of barrier never seems to dip below 70% despite the combination of the 3-5k Mug, 10k CnD, and 20k+ backstab.

Do note that if a Savant Scourge has a shade out they get 15% flat damage reduction from the minor trait, on top of the fact that a WvW scourge is going to using either dire or trailblazer gear and will have 3k armor and between 27k to 30k health.

Trailblazer has nothing to do with it, usually if I caught a scourge off guard with my holosmith or dragon hunter i can get him to 10% health in 3 seconds landing the full burst combo of my profession, then he pops barriers and he has 10% health plus 40% health and I can't remove that freaking barrier anymore and he completely rotate the battle in his favor and spamming condis he wins.When he has no barrier weakness or not he seems squishier than a thief, as soon as he pops the barrier becomes tankier than a warrior and your attacks can't get rid of that barrier.

So many times I put a scourge to 5% health, he pops the barrier and killed me dunno how because I could not damage him enough anymore.

The only thing to do seems to kite away, so the barrier vanishes and then you land your burst again.

[Cougre.6543]

@Lunateric.3708 said:Don't think balance should be made on that kind of thought, an arbitrary number of XShould it not? Stacking scourges has been a dominant strategy in WvW.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Cougre.6543 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Don't think balance should be made on that kind of thought, an arbitrary number of XShould it not? Stacking scourges has been a dominant strategy in WvW.

Isn't this PvP though?

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Cougre.6543 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Don't think balance should be made on that kind of thought, an arbitrary number of XShould it not? Stacking scourges has been a dominant strategy in WvW.

Isn't this PvP though?

it should for wvwand in pvp = No Class Stacking

[Lunateric.3708]

@Cougre.6543 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Don't think balance should be made on that kind of thought, an arbitrary number of XShould it not? Stacking scourges has been a dominant strategy in WvW.

Then design a mechanic that adds diminished returns to any stacking in that particular mode. WvW balance won't happen regardless though, it's not realistic.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

my usual experience with barrier....also how does he gain actual hp from barrier? Either i get a surprise attack on him, or he'll just eat me alive...http://plays.tv/video/5aee77879cb45d452d/guild-wars-2-pvp-season-11-necro-barrier

[Curennos.9307]

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:my usual experience with barrier....also how does he gain actual hp from barrier? Either i get a surprise attack on him, or he'll just eat me alive...who ever designed scourge gameplay is the person i hate the most at anet and if it was a team of people then that braintrust has no brains and you can trust them that theyll make bad decisions left and right.http://plays.tv/video/5aee77879cb45d452d/guild-wars-2-pvp-season-11-necro-barrier

Can't comment on the last part of your video because it always freezes around 29 sec, but - see where he feared you? That's Shade skill f4, which if he's using the metabattle setup (likely) procs a heal. That + the regen is why his health goes up. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Blood_Sage

It looks like you have very little knowledege of how necro works and the builds you're likely to see. The necro was the only opponent around - why didn't you use your Healing Signet? It would've negated the fear and let you just mash on his face for 6 whole seconds.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

To be honest once he feared me threw my block i was shaken to my core and it messsed up my playing then i saw the thf and tried to bail and died what it freezes on doesnt matter