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Can we just enable 20 man raids for wing 1-4?

Ryudnard.2587

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Zushada.6108

Zushada.6108

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@Ryudnard.2587 said:No rewards. It's more or less the same as accomplishing it as an easy mode.

Sorry, I vote no.

In SWTOR we had 16 player raids and it was a blooming nightmare to coordinate. Imagine trying to get 16 ppl to do what they are supposed to do, exactly when they are supposed to do it, and without drama. Everytime you wipe a few times someone gets fed up and leaves, which means long delays in between pulls and very little time actually spent running the raid. It is not easy and it is not fun. From another perspective, one of the biggest issues with large group raids is the lag, disconnects and graphics hiccups (just too much trying to render at once causing the graphics memory to get overwhelmed). The technical challenges alone were enough for us to forego 16 player raids in the future.

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Tyson.5160

Tyson.5160

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

I don’t see the difference between a stat swap reward time gated behind 20 man raids and and the pvp Legendary.

Two different game modes.

Yes and?

If you want easy time-gated rewards then do sPvP or WvW as they already exist.

Done.

So now let’s talk about having a stat swap on a Legendary armor set similar to how they do it in pvp and WvW.

There is a stat swap in the existing raid legendary armor just like the sPvP and WvW ones.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

Hate to break this to ya, but these easy pathways to Legendary armor already exist in pvp and wvw and guess what... they are heavily time gated. It’s in the game now...

Then do those modes.

I already did, I have the pvp Legendary set and I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t do this time gated in 20 man raids.

Raids already has a legendary armor set.

You are correct and there could be another. Right now WvW has two armor sets that can become Legendary. The same can be said for PvP. There is a standard set and an elite set. The Raid armor could also follow the the same principle. The elite set is an upgrade to the standard set. You could use the Refined armor set for the stat selectable armor and leave Envoy as the elite version.

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Tyson.5160

Tyson.5160

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@Zushada.6108 said:

@Ryudnard.2587 said:No rewards. It's more or less the same as accomplishing it as an easy mode.

Sorry, I vote no.

In SWTOR we had 16 player raids and it was a blooming nightmare to coordinate. Imagine trying to get 16 ppl to do what they are supposed to do, exactly when they are supposed to do it, and without drama. Everytime you wipe a few times someone gets fed up and leaves, which means long delays in between pulls and very little time actually spent running the raid. It is not easy and it is not fun. From another perspective, one of the biggest issues with large group raids is the lag, disconnects and graphics hiccups (just too much trying to render at once causing the graphics memory to get overwhelmed). The technical challenges alone were enough for us to forego 16 player raids in the future.

I mean we are talking about a 20 man instance here, not sure how much graphical overload there will be. The damage that a 20 man raid could produce could pretty crazy.

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Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

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Proposal: 20-man "Incusion" which is an 'easier' mode raid that slightly increases the Raid boss HP but allows for up to 20 players to participate in difficult encounters.

Specifics:

  • Bump the "Raid Boss" Health between 25 - 50%, but allow for up to 20 players.
  • Rewards are extensively reduced, though you can still earn 'Raid Wing Currency' to contribute towards cap which can be used to buy general ascended items. Raid boss skins and other such Raid Boss specific loot is not allocated for 'Incursion' encounters, you cannot earn boss specific skins or legendary armor from Incursions.
  • "Incursion" Mode only applies to 'legacy' considered wings, new 'Raid' Wings will not have an Incursion Mode from the start but after bug fixes and time, said 'Raid' Wing can be given an "Incursion" mode to assist in training new raiders.

Reasoning:

  • Side-Story Lore accessibility, the lore experience isn't 100% perfect without the full experience of defeating "high" difficulty bosses. Deimos and Dhuum are example encounters where while the encounter is active lore drops here and there enhance the quality of the side-story lore experience. Being able to bring in more players will allow for a much more lore-friendly approach.
  • Raid Guild activities, with a singular focus in 10 players on the current 'Raid' format, "Incursion" allows for more opportunities for raiding focused guilds to assist in training guildmates in dealing with the encounters in their true 'raid' mode, or simply providing another avenue for bringing in new guildmates.

The intended Result:

  • Accessibility increase: By doubling the amount of players in a particular encounter, groups of players can manage trouble mechanics more easily and start assisting new players on 'Raid-Specific' mechanics that can immediately defeat the raid party.
  • Lore Accessibility: By providing a larger group, those who are interested in the 'full' lore experience in raids can do an Incursion instead and while not have the same benefits as the true Raid group, can experience the full lore experience from previously inaccessible raid wings.
  • Non-diminishment of Raid Rewards while providing more accessibility: Raid Boss Specific Rewards become intact until the player has successfully killed the boss in question, Incusion Mode is only active on 'Older' Raid Wings, by doubling the squad size new potential 'raiders' can join veterans in taking down the same 'raid' bosses.
  • Bonus: More Health? 'Elitist' guilds will have another avenue to speed-run. Raiding Guilds will look at Incursions not for the rewards but for the 'beefier' Incursion bosses which can be another avenue of prestige for "bragging rights" on social media.

How's the above sound?

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

I don’t see the difference between a stat swap reward time gated behind 20 man raids and and the pvp Legendary.

Two different game modes.

Yes and?

If you want easy time-gated rewards then do sPvP or WvW as they already exist.

Done.

So now let’s talk about having a stat swap on a Legendary armor set similar to how they do it in pvp and WvW.

There is a stat swap in the existing raid legendary armor just like the sPvP and WvW ones.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

Hate to break this to ya, but these easy pathways to Legendary armor already exist in pvp and wvw and guess what... they are heavily time gated. It’s in the game now...

Then do those modes.

I already did, I have the pvp Legendary set and I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t do this time gated in 20 man raids.

Raids already has a legendary armor set.

You are correct and there could be another. Right now WvW has two armor sets that can become Legendary. The same can be said for PvP. There is a standard set and an elite set. The Raid armor could also follow the the same principle. The elite set is an upgrade to the standard set. You could use the Refined armor set for the stat selectable armor and leave Envoy as the elite version.

I personally consider the two ascended sets that you can convert into legendary to be a single method.

If there were to be another method for PvE, it’d have to be something that encompassed everything else.

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Tyson.5160

Tyson.5160

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

I don’t see the difference between a stat swap reward time gated behind 20 man raids and and the pvp Legendary.

Two different game modes.

Yes and?

If you want easy time-gated rewards then do sPvP or WvW as they already exist.

Done.

So now let’s talk about having a stat swap on a Legendary armor set similar to how they do it in pvp and WvW.

There is a stat swap in the existing raid legendary armor just like the sPvP and WvW ones.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

Hate to break this to ya, but these easy pathways to Legendary armor already exist in pvp and wvw and guess what... they are heavily time gated. It’s in the game now...

Then do those modes.

I already did, I have the pvp Legendary set and I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t do this time gated in 20 man raids.

Raids already has a legendary armor set.

You are correct and there could be another. Right now WvW has two armor sets that can become Legendary. The same can be said for PvP. There is a standard set and an elite set. The Raid armor could also follow the the same principle. The elite set is an upgrade to the standard set. You could use the Refined armor set for the stat selectable armor and leave Envoy as the elite version.

I personally consider the two ascended sets that you can convert into legendary to be a single method.

If there were to be another method for PvE, it’d have to be something that encompassed everything else.

Except they aren’t though, one costs one amount of tickets, the other costs double and required a high rank in WvW.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

I don’t see the difference between a stat swap reward time gated behind 20 man raids and and the pvp Legendary.

Two different game modes.

Yes and?

If you want easy time-gated rewards then do sPvP or WvW as they already exist.

Done.

So now let’s talk about having a stat swap on a Legendary armor set similar to how they do it in pvp and WvW.

There is a stat swap in the existing raid legendary armor just like the sPvP and WvW ones.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

Hate to break this to ya, but these easy pathways to Legendary armor already exist in pvp and wvw and guess what... they are heavily time gated. It’s in the game now...

Then do those modes.

I already did, I have the pvp Legendary set and I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t do this time gated in 20 man raids.

Raids already has a legendary armor set.

You are correct and there could be another. Right now WvW has two armor sets that can become Legendary. The same can be said for PvP. There is a standard set and an elite set. The Raid armor could also follow the the same principle. The elite set is an upgrade to the standard set. You could use the Refined armor set for the stat selectable armor and leave Envoy as the elite version.

I personally consider the two ascended sets that you can convert into legendary to be a single method.

If there were to be another method for PvE, it’d have to be something that encompassed everything else.

Except they aren’t though, one costs one amount of tickets, the other costs double and required a high rank in WvW.

They're both acquired by a single method which is exchanging tickets earned by doing the exact same thing. If Anet added 1,000,000 sets and different price levels for tickets, would you consider that 1,000,000 different ways to acquire legendary armor or just one?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

I don’t see the difference between a stat swap reward time gated behind 20 man raids and and the pvp Legendary.

Two different game modes.

Yes and?

If you want easy time-gated rewards then do sPvP or WvW as they already exist.

Done.

So now let’s talk about having a stat swap on a Legendary armor set similar to how they do it in pvp and WvW.

There is a stat swap in the existing raid legendary armor just like the sPvP and WvW ones.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Have they demanded it yet with WvW?

For both collectively.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah forget the raid currency, legendary insights and the like. Throw in a huge time gated stat swap armor set, with a unique currency in there and people will play it. That way you can leave normal raids alone and don’t need to touch them.

Easy raids should get reduced rewards, if any, and definitely not their own unique rewards.

Definitely no on the stat swap armor. They can get legendary armor through the already available routes. I’m also pretty sure that players would then start demanding that armor set to have a legendary skin which is what people have been asking for with the WvW and sPvP ones.

well technically, WvW kinda has one and PVP will be getting one.

Which is the issue as players don’t get what they want so they’re just going to piecemeal it. Just like with armor obtained from those two modes, people would soon demand for unique skins on the easy mode’s legendary set.

It seems as if people just want an easy mode so they can easily get the rewards. The whole “experience the story” or “we want a way to train” is just smoke being used to hide what they really are after which is an easier path to the rewards.

Ok wait a second here, I advised to leave the normal raid alone. Don’t touch it. I also would give the 20 man or easy mode their own unique reward, for example stat swap armor with maybe the refined skin. Ok so far so good. At this point we are not draining the current raid community, we aren’t even giving out the rewards from Raids, the Envoy still remains as the major reward. The stat swap would be time gated like the PVP armor.

I don’t understand the problem. Where is the downside?

You’re trying to create an easy mode path to get the rewards. Easy mode should not get legendary armor regardless of what the skin is.

Hate to break this to ya, but these easy pathways to Legendary armor already exist in pvp and wvw and guess what... they are heavily time gated. It’s in the game now...

Then do those modes.

I already did, I have the pvp Legendary set and I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t do this time gated in 20 man raids.

Raids already has a legendary armor set.

You are correct and there could be another. Right now WvW has two armor sets that can become Legendary. The same can be said for PvP. There is a standard set and an elite set. The Raid armor could also follow the the same principle. The elite set is an upgrade to the standard set. You could use the Refined armor set for the stat selectable armor and leave Envoy as the elite version.

I personally consider the two ascended sets that you can convert into legendary to be a single method.

If there were to be another method for PvE, it’d have to be something that encompassed everything else.

Except they aren’t though, one costs one amount of tickets, the other costs double and required a high rank in WvW.

They're both acquired by a single method which is exchanging tickets earned by doing the exact same thing. If Anet added 1,000,000 sets and different price levels for tickets, would you consider that 1,000,000 different ways to acquire legendary armor or just one?

Well, I would make the suggestion to have it cost LI, but clearly seeing how the raids work, you would have to put in a new currency or people would be butt hurt.

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In order to keep the integrity of the raids intact. The 20 man would have to have a separate reward and have to have a different currency.

The 20 man is multifaceted, it can allow people to see the story, train and provide a stat swap armor, which may give them an appetite for the elite set.

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@Tyson.5160 said:In order to keep the integrity of the raids intact. The 20 man would have to have a separate reward and have to have a different currency.

The 20 man is multifaceted, it can allow people to see the story, train and provide a stat swap armor, which may give them an appetite for the elite set.

No... the easy mode legendary armor would remove a lot of incentive to do the raids on normal unless they wanted the skins. Players would also quickly ask for some unique skin for those easy mode legendary armor sets as it's easy to piecemeal requests rather than ask for it all upfront.

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I have a suggestion for a new way to earn PvE legendary armor using the same existing crafting structure with some modifications rather than making 20 man raids. This is just an example of what I would expect to see if another legendary armor set were added.

Legendary insights will be replaced by an items that assembled by combining four parts obtained in PvE. These part are from four newly created daily achievements that are unlocked upon completing the personal story and at least one of the expansion stories once.

  • Part1: Obtained by completing a new daily dungeon achievement that randomly had you complete three specific dungeon paths.
  • Part2: Obtained by completing the three daily fractal achievements on T3 or T4.
  • Part3: Obtained by completing a new daily achievement that has you complete a specific meta event that is randomly chosen each day. Meta events being DT (T5 or T6 only), SW, Teq, TT, the four HoT maps, and the ones on the PoF maps including Serpent's Ire.
  • Part4: Obtained by completing a daily solo instance gauntlet of three encounters on par with Queen's Gauntlet. The bosses randomly change each day as well as environmental mechanics.

You need 180 of these new items for a full set of legendary armor.

I'm not sure how the precursor pieces will be obtained but it'd be along the lines of ascended crafting.

For the gift of dedication, these account bound items will be obtained separately from each of the expansion maps by doing events. Drop rate will be low enough that you're not flooding your inventory with them but not super rare either.

The provisioner tokens are obtained the same way except with minor changes. Only obtainable on expansion maps and anything from PoF or later will be available from repeatable heart merchants. Don't care to think about how each vendor will require a specific weapon as the faction provisioners on HoT maps.

There you have it. Dungeons are relevant again. You have people on the maps doing events and meta events. You have a form of the Queen's Gauntlet back permanently. Players are logging on daily. It'll be easier to farm geodes now and you don't have to do raids... ever. Win. Win. Win.

I'm not really serious about this suggestion and I won't defend it. Like it or hate it. If there was another PvE option, it would have to have the player do an expansive amount of PvE content with enough time-gates and time sinks to equate to the time and effort to earn them via raids. (Not just make them obtainable in fractals only). I don’t agree with adding another set within an easy mode of raids whether it be with nerfed encounters or 20 man raids.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:I have a suggestion for a new way to earn PvE legendary armor using the same existing crafting structure with some modifications.

Legendary insights will be replaced by an items that assembled by combining four parts obtained in PvE. These part are from four newly created daily achievements that are unlocked upon completing the personal story and at least one of the expansion stories once.

  • Part1: Obtained by completing a new daily dungeon achievement that randomly had you complete three specific dungeon paths.
  • Part2: Obtained by completing the three daily fractal achievements on T3 or T4.
  • Part3: Obtained by completing a new daily achievement that has you complete a specific meta event that is randomly chosen each day. Meta events being DT (T5 or T6 only), SW, Teq, TT, the four HoT maps, and the ones on the PoF maps including Serpent's Ire.
  • Part4: Obtained by completing a daily solo instance gauntlet of three encounters on par with Queen's Gauntlet. The bosses randomly change each day as well as environmental mechanics.

You need 180 of these new items for a full set of legendary armor.

I'm not sure how the precursor pieces will be obtained but it'd be along the lines of ascended crafting.

For the gift of dedication, these account bound items will be obtained separately from each of the expansion maps by doing events. Drop rate will be low enough that you're not flooding your inventory with them but not super rare either.

The provisioner tokens are obtained the same way except with minor changes. Only obtainable on expansion maps and anything from PoF or later will be available from repeatable heart merchants. Don't care to think about how each vendor will require a specific weapon as the faction provisioners on HoT maps.

There you have it. Dungeons are relevant again. You have people on the maps doing events and meta events. You have a form of the Queen's Gauntlet back permanently. Players are logging on daily. It'll be easier to farm geodes now and you don't have to do raids... ever. Win. Win. Win.

I'm not really serious about this suggestion and I won't defend it. Like it or hate it. If there was another PvE option, it would have to have the player do an expansive amount of PvE content with enough time-gates and time sinks to equate to the time and effort to earn them via raids. I don’t agree with adding another set within an easy mode of raids whether it be with nerfed encounters or 20 man raids.

Or you could just add a legendary set in Fractals...

Would this be a completely unique skin as well?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:In order to keep the integrity of the raids intact. The 20 man would have to have a separate reward and have to have a different currency.

The 20 man is multifaceted, it can allow people to see the story, train and provide a stat swap armor, which may give them an appetite for the elite set.

No... the easy mode legendary armor would remove a lot of incentive to do the raids on normal unless they wanted the skins. Players would also quickly ask for some unique skin for those easy mode legendary armor sets as it's easy to piecemeal requests rather than ask for it all upfront.

I mean honestly, people want the skins don’t they? There also not a lot of incentive to do the raids in the first place with sets in pvp and wvw. That’s what I did. Especially when you can mix and match the pieces from both those game modes.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:In order to keep the integrity of the raids intact. The 20 man would have to have a separate reward and have to have a different currency.

The 20 man is multifaceted, it can allow people to see the story, train and provide a stat swap armor, which may give them an appetite for the elite set.

No... the easy mode legendary armor would remove a lot of incentive to do the raids on normal unless they wanted the skins. Players would also quickly ask for some unique skin for those easy mode legendary armor sets as it's easy to piecemeal requests rather than ask for it all upfront.

I mean honestly, people want the skins don’t they? There also not a lot of incentive to do the raids in the first place with sets in pvp and wvw. That’s what I did. Especially when you can mix and match the pieces from both those game modes.

I'm curious now, since you can get the PVP and the WVW Legendary Armor without ever killing another player in actual combat (it's a very long and tedious PVE grind/farm essentially) why is there a need for another PVE grind/farm option in the game? Plus, it works as an extra incentive for players to go visit PVP and WVW and maybe they will like the modes and instead of a mindless boring grind they'll participate in the mode for real.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:In order to keep the integrity of the raids intact. The 20 man would have to have a separate reward and have to have a different currency.

The 20 man is multifaceted, it can allow people to see the story, train and provide a stat swap armor, which may give them an appetite for the elite set.

No... the easy mode legendary armor would remove a lot of incentive to do the raids on normal unless they wanted the skins. Players would also quickly ask for some unique skin for those easy mode legendary armor sets as it's easy to piecemeal requests rather than ask for it all upfront.

I mean honestly, people want the skins don’t they? There also not a lot of incentive to do the raids in the first place with sets in pvp and wvw. That’s what I did. Especially when you can mix and match the pieces from both those game modes.

I'm curious now, since you can get the PVP and the WVW Legendary Armor without ever killing another player in actual combat (it's a very long and tedious PVE grind/farm essentially) why is there a need for another PVE grind/farm option in the game? Plus, it works as an extra incentive for players to go visit PVP and WVW and maybe they will like the modes and instead of a mindless boring grind they'll participate in the mode for real.

Because it does take a massive amount of time in WvW/PvP which obviously prevents you from playing PvE in that time. If you are a primarily PvE player, it means either abandoning the mode you prefer completely for a very long time, or (if you do it in bits and pieces in between your normal PvE sessions) having to work on it for years (most of primarily pve players won't be able to even get close to maxing wvw tickets in a week. To do that you either need to play wvw exclusively, or have a very high wvw rank, which practically means the same. PvP is a bit better in that regard, but you either need to fight other players, which most of people do not like to do, or afk farm, which even if not enforced too strictly, is still an offense warranting suspension and something noone should be encouraged to do). Yes, if you end up liking WvW/SPvP, that's good, but what if you won't? (and most PvE players that do not WvW/SPvP already won't).

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:In order to keep the integrity of the raids intact. The 20 man would have to have a separate reward and have to have a different currency.

The 20 man is multifaceted, it can allow people to see the story, train and provide a stat swap armor, which may give them an appetite for the elite set.

No... the easy mode legendary armor would remove a lot of incentive to do the raids on normal unless they wanted the skins. Players would also quickly ask for some unique skin for those easy mode legendary armor sets as it's easy to piecemeal requests rather than ask for it all upfront.

I mean honestly, people want the skins don’t they? There also not a lot of incentive to do the raids in the first place with sets in pvp and wvw. That’s what I did. Especially when you can mix and match the pieces from both those game modes.

I'm curious now, since you can get the PVP and the WVW Legendary Armor without ever killing another player in actual combat (it's a very long and tedious PVE grind/farm essentially) why is there a need for another PVE grind/farm option in the game? Plus, it works as an extra incentive for players to go visit PVP and WVW and maybe they will like the modes and instead of a mindless boring grind they'll participate in the mode for real.

Because it does take a massive amount of time in WvW/PvP which obviously prevents you from playing PvE in that time. If you are a primarily PvE player, it means either abandoning the mode you prefer completely for a very long time, or (if you do it in bits and pieces in between your normal PvE sessions) having to work on it for
years
(most of primarily pve players won't be able to even get close to maxing wvw tickets in a week. To do that you either need to play wvw exclusively, or have a very high wvw rank, which practically means the same). Yes, if you end up liking WvW, that's good, but what if you won't? (and most PvE players that do not WvW already won't).

No effort and an insane amount of time, isn't that what the suggestion about adding Legendary Armor in other modes is all about? Or now it's going to change to being both easier to get AND take the same amount of time?

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:No effort and an insane amount of time, isn't that what the suggestion about adding Legendary Armor in other modes is all about?No, the main point was always "be able to find a mode you like where you could get it". Which is fulfilled for raiders, and WvW/SPvP players, but not for anyone else (and that anyone else in this case is a huge majority of players). And since we can't reasonably cover all the possibilities (as there will always be players that will claim they only like that one narrow niche mode, and nothing else), we should at least cover the content types played by a majority of players (either by making some core generic path, or by having several paths that together cover the major options).So, basically, for PvE, Open world path (something like with the weapons), LS path, and/or achieves path (just use hellfire/radiant as precursors and go from there - at the same time most exclusive, and yet most open to all players). Possibly a fractal path (but only if it's one more option, never as the only PvE alternative to raids).

Raids should never have been the first (and the only) PvE legendary armor path. It's good as a path, but only as a complementary one.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:No effort and an insane amount of time, isn't that what the suggestion about adding Legendary Armor in other modes is all about?No, the main point was always "be able to find a mode you like where you could get it".

Replacing effort/skill with time was always an argument, and getting them by farming in WVW and PVP fits this requirement.Now you don't even want that, honestly news to me.

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@ProtoGunner.4953 said:We definitely need more flexibility in raids. Compared to WoW the raids here are ridiculous. There is just one single mode... in WoW there are two versions 10 and 25 man. And both have like 5 different difficulties: LFR, flexible, normal, heroic, mythic or so.

Nope. There are 4 versions.LFR 25 players.Normal 10-30 players.Heroic 10-30 players.Mythic 20 players.

Normal mode in GW2 is around normal in WoW which is a pretty good baseline difficulty.Also GW2 is not raid focused. The ressources that go into raids in WoW are invested in open world in GW2. Do you want GW2 to be raid focused?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:No effort and an insane amount of time, isn't that what the suggestion about adding Legendary Armor in other modes is all about?No, the main point was always "be able to find a mode you like where you could get it".

Replacing effort/skill with time was always an argumentBut only as a means to accomplish the main goal

and getting them by farming in WVW and PVP fits this requirement.Not when it doesn't accomplish the main goal. And for a majority of players it doesn't.

Now you don't even want that, honestly news to me.I never wanted that in the first place. It's not difficulty on its own that is a problem to me. Not having an option available that i might find fun is. Basically, the main problem is that legendary armor is locked behind a niche content. Notice, that in curent GW2 both WvW and SPvP are also niche content, so having options available through them doesn't exactly solve anything for most of the players.
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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:We definitely need more flexibility in raids. Compared to WoW the raids here are ridiculous. There is just one single mode... in WoW there are two versions 10 and 25 man. And both have like 5 different difficulties: LFR, flexible, normal, heroic, mythic or so.

Nope. There are 4 versions.LFR 25 players.Normal 10-30 players.Heroic 10-30 players.Mythic 20 players.

Normal mode in GW2 is around normal in WoW which is a pretty good baseline difficulty.Also GW2 is not raid focused. The ressources that go into raids in WoW are invested in open world in GW2. Do you want GW2 to be raid focused?

I played it til Pandaria. Also, the open world content in WoW was huge as well, not smaller like in GW2. Check out PoF on release: 5 maps, while Panda had like 6-8 maps AND two raids AND 5 dungeons. It just doesn't fit. Well they are bigger of course and you pay monthly.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:In order to keep the integrity of the raids intact. The 20 man would have to have a separate reward and have to have a different currency.

The 20 man is multifaceted, it can allow people to see the story, train and provide a stat swap armor, which may give them an appetite for the elite set.

No... the easy mode legendary armor would remove a lot of incentive to do the raids on normal unless they wanted the skins. Players would also quickly ask for some unique skin for those easy mode legendary armor sets as it's easy to piecemeal requests rather than ask for it all upfront.

I mean honestly, people want the skins don’t they? There also not a lot of incentive to do the raids in the first place with sets in pvp and wvw. That’s what I did. Especially when you can mix and match the pieces from both those game modes.

I'm curious now, since you can get the PVP and the WVW Legendary Armor without ever killing another player in actual combat (it's a very long and tedious PVE grind/farm essentially) why is there a need for another PVE grind/farm option in the game? Plus, it works as an extra incentive for players to go visit PVP and WVW and maybe they will like the modes and instead of a mindless boring grind they'll participate in the mode for real.

Well, I actually just finished the PVP Legendary armor yesterday and I have been working on it since they made the original announcement. It took me roughly 10 months to finish it, and that’s with winning the games as well as losing some. I would hate to see how long it would take to lose your way to the armor. I would predict over a year easy.

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