An Eye on the Deadeye

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:It sounds like you are talking purely PvP perspective. These changes screw over the PvE side.

And they do so massively, while basically removing rifle as a PvE weapon beyond an opener to go into a brain dead dagger / dagger auto attack and backstab rotation which ignores all of the new malice mechanics. The old rifle setup with timing DJs and being aware of positioning was considerably more engaging (and did more DPS) that what we've been left with after this patch.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@"Nomad.4301" said:So some initial observations of mine after the changes:

1. [silent Scope] the way this grants stealth feels extremely "clunky" and you often get revealed immediately after dodging due to projectiles still in the air striking the target mid-dodge, which then requires you to stop attacking, un-kneel, re-kneel then dodge again which totally kills the flow and any potential DPS.

2.The [silent Scope] mechanic where the stealth CD resets after un-kneeling and re-kneeling feels awful, it basically makes my rotation look like this (with M7) "Mark>3>3>3>3>dodge>1>3>3>3>3>kneel>kneel>dodge>1>repeat" the kneels/dodge in the middle kill the flow and lower DPS.

3. The rotation is also no less stale then it was before when it was "1>1>1>4>1>1>1>1>4" it just has unnecessary kneeling and dodging thrown in now.

4. Malice also feels completely useless now and even somewhat inhibiting on weapons that have no way to "consume" it. For example with P/P you fill up malice pretty fast and with the new M7 getting that extra ini regen and boons with full malice feels great however once you hit 7 malice you're stuck there until you use a stealth attack, which p/p has no real access to, even if you did take a stealth utility you would be using it JUST to dump the malice to get M7 to proc again because the stealth attack with pistol is very underwhelming, this also applies to SB, S/P, Spear, Harpoon Gun, and D/P if in an area with combo fields that overlap your smoke. A reasonable fix for this may be to just make re-applying mark on a target with max malice trigger the M7 effect.

5.DPS feels much lower (about 5k less) this could just be me not used to the clunky rotation. However with the removal of the malice damage bonus and the addition of a 10% flat from a minor trait it does result in a 5-11% damage loss on the marked target.

6.The deadeye heal skill is considerably worse now in PvE at least, it provides less healing then withdraw with almost twice the CD and less condi removal potential then it did before.

I'll try and update this if i notice anything else.

Do you know what it feels like to be a gopher sniper? INCOMING GOPHER SNIPER MEME kneel-pop-kneel-pop

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:It sounds like you are talking purely PvP perspective. These changes screw over the PvE side.

And they do so massively, while basically removing rifle as a PvE weapon beyond an opener to go into a brain dead dagger / dagger auto attack and backstab rotation which ignores all of the new malice mechanics. The old rifle setup with timing DJs and being aware of positioning was considerably more engaging (and did more DPS) that what we've been left with after this patch.

Testing it out with the golem confirmed my worst fears as well as what you are saying. They pulled a Scrapper situation on DE. It will only take them 2 years to realize how bad they kittened up DE PvE rifle.

[FreundHein.2739]

By the way, isn't is funny - trying to make the class more sniper-ish and end up with snipers using daggers.Something is wrong with the concept.

[Astyrah.4015]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:It sounds like you are talking purely PvP perspective. These changes screw over the PvE side.

And they do so massively, while basically removing rifle as a PvE weapon beyond an opener to go into a brain dead dagger / dagger auto attack and backstab rotation which ignores all of the new malice mechanics. The old rifle setup with timing DJs and being aware of positioning was considerably more engaging (and did more DPS) that what we've been left with after this patch.

Testing it out with the golem confirmed my worst fears as well as what you are saying. They pulled a Scrapper situation on DE. It will only take them 2 years to realize how bad they kittened up DE PvE rifle.

yeah did the golem too, was able to do on par DPS before the update but i had to work more effort for the same output... so it hardly feels like they've improved DE... i don't think they'll retract on their changes and bring the old PvE DE back... probably just flat damage increases across the board if ever but that's already wishing for too much right now and that's if they actually listen to us

[Doggie.3184]

Not a fan of forced stealth gameplay as mentioned before but on top of that the concept is rather strange now with Rifle. It's a Sniper encouraged to Kneel in place and attack but now they want you to move to trigger stealth via dodge roll or the rifle version of the "black powder combo" with Sniper Cover and Death's Retreat (not a very original idea for a replacement skill since I already found Rifle to be too similar to Dual Pistols.) to use it's stealth nuke. There's a lot of unnecessary movement and wasted resources for a Sniper, compared to just kneeling like before to trigger Silent Scope stealth. Stealth in dodge roll form is also less reliable and prone to failure as already pointed out by Nomad. Also; keeping track of an invisible CD for something so required is not very fun.

Can someone tell me how viable it is to just ignore the new malice system and never use stealth? lol Should I just go back to Daredevil?

The heal feels pointless when I can just keep using Withdraw which does the same thing better, outside of transferring, which is more a PvP thing and not as important as just getting rid of condi more often.

Stolen things pretty much do no damage now since you only baselined the durations without Malice. :(

[Tails.9372]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:They pulled a Scrapper situation on DE. It will only take them 2 years to realize how bad they kittened up DE PvE rifle.Meh, judging from their track record it's going to take them more than two years. Just look @ P/P, it's still nothing but a fun gimmick. The overly focus on PvP "balance" really does destroy countless PvE builds and "classes" which would otherwise be viable options.

[Kageseigi.2150]

has uninterruptable stealth access

My goodness, Anet... I thought the goal was to give Stealth counterplay by allowing ways to deny it. Can we please get a standard here? If it's ok to allow simple dodging to grant Stealth, then what's the argument against a Heartseeker becoming an evasion? Or why can't Black Powder itself grant Stealth without requiring a combo?

Alas, of course I'm also upset at turning an expansion-required "sniper" into a Dagger assassin while the Core Thief is stuck with Pistols and Sword. Where's the Dagger love for Core Thief?

[Zalavaaris.5329]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:So staff daredevil it is?

Sadly, saw no buffs in the patch so will still be poor in terms of relative DPS.

if you dodge while kneeling the silent scope cd removes itself pretty instant, you see the cooldown in your buff bar.but the stealth would be better applied at the end of the roll so you have a very low chance of self reveal.

Yes, but for a PvE rifle rotation, we need to stand and then rekneel and then dodge. This is where the clunkiness kicks in

It was only slightly behind but is now ahead of power deadeye in terms of feel and potentially damage. I'll need to see what the theorycrafters say about it.

Staff Daredevil? You'll get more cleave but the DPS is very slightly lower than that of Deadeye opening with rifle and then switching to dagger/dagger ignoring the new Malice mechanic, ignoring the new Maleficent Seven trait and just spamming autos and CnD backstabs. Actually trying to use the new M7 with a Malice building Heartseeker rotation seems to be a noticeable DPS loss.

However, both staff Daredevil and rifle + dagger/dagger Deadeye look like they are going to be behind most of the other power DPS options.

Power deadeye pre patch was only 1k ahead of staff daredevil. I think with the cleave, mobility, less clumsiness, and ease of play that daredevil will probably end up being the go to.

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:Power deadeye pre patch was only 1k ahead of staff daredevil. I think with the cleave, mobility, less clumsiness, and ease of play that daredevil will probably end up being the go to.

Daredevil really only has the cleave advantage over Deadeye. There is no fight in which you need mobility beyond what Heartseeker offers and dagger/dagger Deadeye is currently much easier to play than staff Daredevil. DE needs to open with some rifle 3 spam, then just auto and backstab on reveal falling off with daggers (unless a rotation is found with Heartseeker and M7 that does more). DD still needs to cull auto attack and use Fist Flurry and Weakening Charge at the right time. However, both aren't going to be competitive with other DPS options - your go to will likely be a different profession sadly with the way that Anet treats Thief.

And, to be honest, that is a damn shame and I am galled that Anet thought this rework would be well received in instanced PvE.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:Power deadeye pre patch was only 1k ahead of staff daredevil. I think with the cleave, mobility, less clumsiness, and ease of play that daredevil will probably end up being the go to.

Daredevil really only has the cleave advantage over Deadeye. There is no fight in which you need mobility beyond what Heartseeker offers and dagger/dagger Deadeye is currently much easier to play than staff Daredevil. DE needs to open with some rifle 3 spam, then just auto and backstab on reveal falling off with daggers (unless a rotation is found with Heartseeker and M7 that does more). DD still needs to cull auto attack and use Fist Flurry and Weakening Charge at the right time. However, both aren't going to be competitive with other DPS options - your go to will likely be a different profession sadly with the way that Anet treats Thief.

And, to be honest, that is a kitten shame and I am galled that Anet thought this rework would be well received in instanced PvE.

Yea for sure, my commentary was assumed youd want to stay thief. There are obviously much better options.

[Volrath.1473]

So nothing changed really... Core thief as usual.

[bq pd.2148]

@Doggie.3184 said:Also; keeping track of an invisible CD for something so required is not very fun.

the cooldown is visible in your buffbar , a symbol with a kneeling sniper.

i also already miss the boonstrip from bursed bullet wich was really good for fighting rather defensive builds with perma protection like druids - guess i get forced into trickery for that. giving binding shadow extra 2 boonstrips is no where near the corrupt potential of old cursed bullet. has any1 already tested if this new boonstrip has any priorities?

[Tamurello Mistmind.5912]

Poorly conceived and uninspiring.Yes my build still works but it's boring.Thanks Anet for shafting your PvE players .... we paid for the game too you know!

[Kalsa.1580]

As a pvp rifle deadeye, I heavily depended on easy stealth access for surviveability via sniper's cover.

Stealth is now gated behind dodges, being in combat, a super clunky kneel reset mechanic and also consistently fails due to bullet flight times. On top of that, losing Cursed Bullet and Free Action no longer removing conditions just hurts.

This feels like a nerf to an already marginal spec in pvp.

[Kallist.5917]

Honestly, none of this should be shocking. Every-time a non-dagger mainhand starts to show potential, A-net brings down the hammer on it. They should really just go ahead and strip everything else away already, and admit that all they want us to have is a Dagger, A Pistol, and a Teleport on secondary.

[Storm Blade.9638]

after testing some stuff and playing the new DE it feels super clunky and complicated in comparison to the previous DE. When i kneel i want i miss the intsant stealth now i ve to use a stupid kombo or an dodge, which in a long fight u ll eventually run out of stamina. Pre DE was easy and simply more fun atleast for me.

[Will.9785]

PVE player here and thief main. Deadeye has felt ill-conceived to me from the start. I'm not a fan of the changes. Not at all. They do little/nothing to address the core issues with the profession and they apparently somehow managed to make our dps, which was already lackluster, even worse.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

So, my two cents: This really messes up non-stealth DE builds (thinking p/p and s/p) because of the loss of malice damage. Need to do some testing, but I have a feeling the "skirmisher" version of deadeye (traits 2-2-2 on DE) that doesn't rely on stealth camping is really going to suffer in Pvp and Wvw from this.

In other words, thanks for taking away 15% of my damage (s/p rifle Acro/Trick/DE) as a punishment for not playing a stealth camper. Good job anet :p

Edit: Just offhand, how about giving us back a 1.5% or 2% damage increase for each stack of malice? Then non-stealth DE's could do their thing, while still giving the stealth boys their new damage. That way, it becomes a choice of whether to spend your malice to do one massive strike or to keep it for a sustained damage bonus.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:So, my two cents: This really messes up non-stealth DE builds (thinking p/p and s/p) because of the loss of malice damage. Need to do some testing, but I have a feeling the "skirmisher" version of deadeye (traits 2-2-2 on DE) that doesn't rely on stealth camping is really going to suffer in Pvp and Wvw from this.

In other words, thanks for taking away 15% of my damage (s/p rifle Acro/Trick/DE) as a punishment for not playing a stealth camper. Good job anet :p

Edit: Just offhand, how about giving us back a 1.5% or 2% damage increase for each stack of malice? Then non-stealth DE's could do their thing, while still giving the stealth boys their new damage. That way, it becomes a choice of whether to spend your malice to do one massive strike or to keep it for a sustained damage bonus.

But... Iron Sight gives you 10% damage base now. from the get go, no need for the build up, and it's a minor trait. You always have it. 10% DMG buff and defense is pretty nice.

You only lose out on an additional 5 to 11%, and the 11% was with M7, which nobody in their right mind would run in PvP unless they were a gimmick sniper.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:So, my two cents: This really messes up non-stealth DE builds (thinking p/p and s/p) because of the loss of malice damage. Need to do some testing, but I have a feeling the "skirmisher" version of deadeye (traits 2-2-2 on DE) that doesn't rely on stealth camping is really going to suffer in Pvp and Wvw from this.

In other words, thanks for taking away 15% of my damage (s/p rifle Acro/Trick/DE) as a punishment for not playing a stealth camper. Good job anet :p

Edit: Just offhand, how about giving us back a 1.5% or 2% damage increase for each stack of malice? Then non-stealth DE's could do their thing, while still giving the stealth boys their new damage. That way, it becomes a choice of whether to spend your malice to do one massive strike or to keep it for a sustained damage bonus.

But... Iron Sight gives you 10% damage base now. from the get go, no need for the build up, and it's a minor trait. You always have it. 10% DMG buff and defense is pretty nice.

You only lose out on an additional 5 to 11%, and the 11% was with M7, which nobody in their right mind would run in PvP unless they were a gimmick sniper.

It was used in PvE though for some builds which is part of the problem on why the damage isn't as high for PvE.

[Ashen.4061]

Pretty bad changes. It was better before. lol

[TwiceDead.1963]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:So, my two cents: This really messes up non-stealth DE builds (thinking p/p and s/p) because of the loss of malice damage. Need to do some testing, but I have a feeling the "skirmisher" version of deadeye (traits 2-2-2 on DE) that doesn't rely on stealth camping is really going to suffer in Pvp and Wvw from this.

In other words, thanks for taking away 15% of my damage (s/p rifle Acro/Trick/DE) as a punishment for not playing a stealth camper. Good job anet :p

Edit: Just offhand, how about giving us back a 1.5% or 2% damage increase for each stack of malice? Then non-stealth DE's could do their thing, while still giving the stealth boys their new damage. That way, it becomes a choice of whether to spend your malice to do one massive strike or to keep it for a sustained damage bonus.

But... Iron Sight gives you 10% damage base now. from the get go, no need for the build up, and it's a minor trait. You always have it. 10% DMG buff and defense is pretty nice.

You only lose out on an additional 5 to 11%, and the 11% was with M7, which nobody in their right mind would run in PvP unless they were a gimmick sniper.

It was used in PvE though for some builds which part of the problem on why the damage isn't as high for PvE.

Yeah but he was talking about S/P skirmishing so I assumed he was talking about PvP. I am well aware rifle is... Less optimal now, PvE wise.

[kash.9213]

@Storm Blade.9638 said:after testing some stuff and playing the new DE it feels super clunky and complicated in comparison to the previous DE. When i kneel i want i miss the intsant stealth now i ve to use a stupid kombo or an dodge, which in a long fight u ll eventually run out of stamina. Pre DE was easy and simply more fun atleast for me.

People scramble in WvW when they hear a Mark go up on them but you should only have to chase in melee range to ensure initiative hits for like half a minute or so before going back into range to do the Deadeye thing again. That's unless they stand there on their frontline and let you rifle them.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

My damage with rifle was absolutely crippled... like from 30k down to 16k. And it just feels aweful.