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An Eye on the Deadeye


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Im not sure where anet is going with it. I know their approach was to nerf the stealth one shot build in wvw/pvp, but currently i find deadeye very akward in use.. Striking a foe makes you build malice. You loose that malice when you dont have a mark as well as if you get reveal debuff. Which means in order to do "high" damage, you need to abandon stealth or rather watch out not to get reveal debuff, which is more or less a mechanic for thief to deal temporarily increased damage. (see Revealed Training Trait). This is not where it ends however. Your (critical) hits on aa does not contribute to build up malice. Which means you need to spend initiative to build it up... But if you do that you do not have initiative left / low to land big hitting attacks, cause you just used your resource.....

So.. right now, the only way i think DE is viable (not explicit or great) is by using some high initiative regen build with double pistol to spam Unload. But then you loose valuable traits to actually deal high damage... Also i dont see a reason to use rifle anymore since revealed is literately a debuff.. (Why does this still lock you in place?!)

R.I.P Deadeye? /Just my 2 cents on it

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:Can you explain to me how P/P is stronger in open world? I play P/P + Rifle exclusively and malice is completely useless to me now. I don't see the numbers going up, in fact they seem lower to me on general targets.

Not to mention, it was a self buff, not put on your marked target. So you could technically mark 1 person and attack another while still having the 21% bonus.

This is incorrect.

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@"GWMO.4785" said:R.I.P Deadeye? /Just my 2 cents on it

Yep. I just checked the German and French boards. In the German ones that I can natively understand, I think just one guy likes it, the other blatantly hates it.

The Spanish forums have no translation until yesterday (lol?), but the one and only response is, according to Google Translation: "I am disappointed with this company". So that's clear as well.

The French forum is the same as my position mostly: There is no sniper in this sniper profession anymore, they also brought up to change it by 180° after so many months is terrible, the dodge rolls suck, the malice is a nerf and malice is awful.

In this thread, several people say they quit and pay WoW. General French and German forum responses: "RIP Deadeye", just as you said.The only people who like it either don't use Rifle - that's what Deadeye has been advertized with/as, or play PvP/WvW.No real Deadeye likes these joices. In all 4 languages. So it's certainly not me alone. Still on the edge to quit this game, and it's hard to decide. It just sucks so bad it's insane on many layers...

You need stealth to use DJ, but that reveals you. What is this bullcrap of going and out of stealth, it's so awkward and forced. It makes literally no sense. You read Gaile's intro that she posted for the real designers (that, of course, know it sucks, so they bother to respond on bug reports, but not on this thread...) but nothing makes actually sense during gameplay.

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If you want to maximize return on malice in p/p build take MALI 7 and at least one stealth source. P/P builds to 7 malice fast meaning the refund of 7 INI made quite early and those boons acquired. That 7 Ini is coming in just around when OLD thief used to be low on INI and the enemy low on dodges/evades reflects.

You then use stealth, dump the malice with a sneak attack and reset MALI 7. When it hits 7 malice you get 7 ini again plus boons. You can boost INI gain significantly using this method meaning more fuel for the Unload.

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@babazhook.6805 said:If you want to maximize return on malice in p/p build take MALI 7 and at least one stealth source. P/P builds to 7 malice fast meaning the refund of 7 INI made quite early and those boons acquired. That 7 Ini is coming in just around when OLD thief used to be low on INI and the enemy low on dodges/evades reflects.

You then use stealth, dump the malice with a sneak attack and reset MALI 7. When it hits 7 malice you get 7 ini again plus boons. You can boost INI gain significantly using this method meaning more fuel for the Unload.

That's not what anyone is complaining about, mate.The problem is that you're missing nearly 11% damage bonus that cannot be made up by taking BQOBK. At best you're gaining around 5+10% from traits if all goes as planned, but chances are you'll only have 3 boons on you without M7; so if you do pick up M7, you then lose the 200 Power/Prescicion bonus from BQOBK.Do you see where we're coming from? You're losing DPS regardless of what you do.While the new M7 gives you initiative flexibility if you have a Stealth skill to refresh it, you're still losing DPS, not gaining.The old Malice system gave you 21% bonus damage w/M7, the new one gives you 10% and the rest is all over the place and situational.

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:If you want to maximize return on malice in p/p build take MALI 7 and at least one stealth source. P/P builds to 7 malice fast meaning the refund of 7 INI made quite early and those boons acquired. That 7 Ini is coming in just around when OLD thief used to be low on INI and the enemy low on dodges/evades reflects.

You then use stealth, dump the malice with a sneak attack and reset MALI 7. When it hits 7 malice you get 7 ini again plus boons. You can boost INI gain significantly using this method meaning more fuel for the Unload.

That's not what anyone is complaining about, mate.The problem is that you're missing nearly 11% damage bonus that cannot be made up by taking BQOBK. At best you're gaining around 5+10% from traits if all goes as planned, but chances are you'll only have 3 boons on you without M7; so if you do pick up M7, you then lose the 200 Power/Prescicion bonus from BQOBK.Do you see where we're coming from? You're losing DPS regardless of what you do.While the new M7 gives you initiative flexibility if you have a Stealth skill to refresh it, you're still losing DPS, not gaining.The old Malice system gave you 21% bonus damage w/M7, the new one gives you 10% and the rest is all over the place and situational.

Where are you missing 11 percent damage MATE? Did you even play P/P? You can not take both Mali 7 and BqoBK nor could you before.

Scenario 1 You took BqoBk prior and you take it in new build. NOTHING is lost due to Premed. Premed is not "all over the place" as it rare to have less then 4 boons running in a p/p build. NO real change. (swiftness/might/fury/ are generally always up and VIGOR/regen/quickness easy to get)

Scenario 2 you took Mali 7 before and you take Mali 7 now. Mali 7 NOW adds 7 INI. That is enough for one+ full unloads which will add more then 11 percent damage. Reset it with a stealth and you can get another 7 ini in short order.

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@babazhook.6805 said:Where are you missing 11 percent damage MATE? Did you even play P/P? You can not take both Mali 7 and BqoBK nor could you before.

That's the whole point dude. Already gave you the answer above, but here.Malice gave a total of 21% damage bonus with M7. You're saying if we want to make up for the loss 11% damage, we should get BQOBK. That's not gonna cut it. In fact, just go test your DPS on the golem. Several of us have and the results are in: Your damage has been nerfed. Only ones that got a boost in DPS were D/D DE.

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Where are you missing 11 percent damage MATE? Did you even play P/P? You can not take both Mali 7 and BqoBK nor could you before.

That's the whole point dude. Already gave you the answer above, but here.Malice gave a total of 21% damage bonus with M7. You're saying if we want to make up for the loss 11% damage, we should get BQOBK. That's not gonna cut it. In fact, just go test your DPS on the golem. Several of us have and the results are in: Your damage has been nerfed. Only ones that got a boost in DPS were D/D DE.

No you are not reading what I am saying DUDE.

I am NOT saying we should take BqObk. Where did I ever say that.?

I said IF YOU TOOK BqobK PRIOR to changes and take the same today there no damage loss due to iron sight plus Premed. Damge bonus is the same and many Thieves did in fact take BqoBk so as to get their shots off faster.

I said If you took MALI 7 prior there a damage loss of around 6 percent (Not eleven) due to Premed and the fact that most thieves run with around 4 or 5 boons. If you are in a group it even less then that as you can have even more boons. I tend to run solo and it easy to keep 5 boons on. I then pointed out that this 6 percent was NOT a reflection of reality as the added unloads the new Mali 7 provides are not factored in.

I do not play against Golems. I play against other players. I do not count the start of my damage at the 12 second mark which is about how long it took old style to build up 7 malice. I count the start of my damage when the fight starts and where I am already getting a 10 percent add.

Now to the INI pool. Mali 7 adds 7 Ini. I get to Mali 7 faster then before. Assume you are already at your 21 percent old style and (I am being generous here) are doing 12000 per unload as opposed to my 10000. In 4 unloads you did 48000 damage and I did 40000. You are out of INI and I have enough for 1+ more unloads. I just gave you a 20 percent per unload damage advantage per unload. I make up for that with one unload which you do not have the INI for.

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@babazhook.6805 said:Added to that I do not play against Golems.Sigh, maybe you should. 'Cause there is plenty of info on how DPS has dropped. I've done my own testing as well.Malice gave a bonus of 3% damage per stack; x7 with M7 that was 21% damage bonus. But that's been removed now.Instead, you get 10% damage bonus from iron Sight and additional damage bonus from Premeditation, which can range from an extra 3-6% depending on your choice of weapons/traits. That's still 16% in best case scenarios; you're still missing 5-8% damage bonus. You may have gained initiative bonus via the new M7 but if you run a Golem test and compare it to your old DPS, you'll immediately notice that P/P has a 2K DPS loss and Rifle has a 5.5K DPS loss.Meanwhile, D/D has gained nearly 9K DPS with this change, due to the changes to Ambush.

So your perspective is PVP/WVW only. Gotcha.I take all game modes into account; Both PVP/WVW are not affected by these changes from my perspective. PVE is what is being hit the hardest.

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Added to that I do not play against Golems.Sigh, maybe you should. 'Cause there is plenty of info on how DPS has dropped. I've done my own testing as well.Malice gave a bonus of 3% damage per stack; x7 with M7 that was 21% damage bonus. But that's been removed now.Instead, you get 10% damage bonus from iron Sight and additional damage bonus from Premeditation, which can range from an extra 3-6% depending on your choice of weapons/traits. That's still 16% in best case scenarios; you're still missing 5-8% damage bonus. You may have gained initiative bonus via the new M7 but if you run a Golem test and compare it to your old DPS, you'll immediately notice that P/P has a 2K DPS loss and Rifle has a 5.5K DPS loss.Meanwhile, D/D has gained nearly 9K DPS with this change, due to the changes to Ambush.

So your perspective is PVP/WVW only. Gotcha.I take all game modes into account; Both PVP/WVW are not affected by these changes from my perspective. PVE is what is being hit the hardest.

I play PVE as well and far far better in PVE with the new pistol/pistol build. I just went into the Desert bordelands to fight mobs and do far better with the new P/P then prior just because there way more INI to do what I need to do. Again I gave YOU a 20 percent advantage in the above example (not 8) and wiped out that advantage with a single unload. I am now including two sources of stealth in my own p/p build as the new MALI 7 THAT effective (you can in essense increase INi gain by around 70 percent)

I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

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@Cameryn.5310 said:

P/P BeQuick Deadeye is fun to play in open world PvE (anything sub-veteran rank will usually melt really fast by just opening with DE mark then spamming unload) but suffers from lack of good sustainable DPS on boss fights with high HP pools (basically your opening burst is really good and that's most of where your damage comes from and then you start losing steam on prolonged fights if it drags too long) and you pretty much have no spammable AOE if you don't have a shortbow/dagger+dagger/sword for a swap set, but it is definitely usable. for PvP i think the go-to now after the changes is D/P or D/D but i will leave other people to inform you about the PvP things

This is all true.

As a P/P PvE deadeye, MY complaint that I shared earlier in this thread is that we really no longer use Malice in any capacity... there are no weapon skills that grant stealth, and only two cantrips that are pretty much substandard. So all the Malice changes have made that mechanic utterly useless.... but the deadeye trait line is still vital (considering that it changes steals to ranged).

Uhm so how do you play p/p DE now with these changes? How much dps was lost? I will be going this route juggling it with a rifle build for both pvp/pve. Thanks

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@babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.Numbers don't lie.

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@Astyrah.4015 said:

@jenosmaverick.8694 said:any chance they roll the old deadeye back with this much negative comments?

i doubt they will, and if ever they'll probably meet us halfway and just give in to some of the suggestions so yeah a full rollback on the rework is very unlikely

Everyday we stray further from the hope of smart choices being made. Chance of a fullrollback. 0% to 1% If they actually did that Id be more positively suprised about anything I think I ever have in my life. But sadly thats a fantasy world. (Ironic) That im living in. Anet wont roll it back they dont want to admit this change was a bad one.

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.Numbers don't lie.

You believe wahtever you wish. I will go on playing the game and enjoying my increased effectiveness. Not my problem if you unwilling to adapt to a change. I am detailing as to how a person can increase their effectiveness in DE by understanding the changes and how it translates to gameplay such as changing up rotations to take advantage of stealth mechanics.You are just saying nothing can be done because the "Special forces" Golem said so.

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@babazhook.6805 said:When you look at this objectively his simply not true. P/P is in a better place since these changes.

No. We have lost the Malice boost to our damage output. The only way to use Malice now is to take the two cantrips that provide it. The net benefit of using those cantrips to stealth is a slight boost to skill #1 which allows the very same shot except for a VERY small amount of torment. There is no situation in which that is better than a round of Unload. P/P deadeyes lost the Malice damage output and gained nothing in return that we didn't already have.

This would be a very easy fix for Arenanet if they made the very same deadeye talent that gained you stealth when dodging with a rifle function on other weapons as well.

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The Main point here is that P/P fundamentally works better than the Elite Spec's own personalized class weapon the Rifle, due to the changes in how Malice works now. Rifle Literally has to jump through hoops and roll over and play fetch to do maximum damage unlike how it was before. Arena Nets change has effectively scuttled Rifle in any sort of optimal game play position from this point onward.

Everyone who knows how to play will simply dump rifle and move on to P/P, P/D, D/D and D/P for their load outs and drop Silent Scope trait entirely cause of how bad and broken it is in it's current state. We've gotten one post from Mr. Robert Gee himself on one of the other posts about Silent Scope, saying "We'll keep this in mind for future adjustments." In regard to Silent Scope. Which means they don't even consider it a serious game breaking Issue at this point.

Let's face it chaps, Deadeye is broken until Arena Net realizes how badly they F'd up and take Initiative (Thief Puns) and Fix this Nonsense.

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.Numbers don't lie.

I'd never heard of these SFTGs before you mentioned them and after a quick google I'm gonna weigh in. The following may come from ignorance and is a tad of a rant.

THEY DON'T FIGHT BACK. You cannot in pve expect to stand nonchalantly and churn out a perfect dps rotation against, say a hydra or a forged raiding party. Same goes for rifle. Dps would have you spam 3 for both weapons, but enemies block, pull, stun, reflect etc. The fight doesn't start after 11 seconds when you have accumulated your maximum malice 21% while the mob has a cuppa (unless you're a ghillie sniper taking 21 seconds to kill a target you could drop in half that time). Now you come in and boom you're doing a potential 15% off the bat. You're average dude isn't gonna last 11 seconds, hell you can drop a veteran in that time. And like babazhook says you can now do more unload due to initiative regain. Sure against a boss you maybe lose overall dps after a while. Maybe. A while. But you can't solo a group event. The only thing i can see this being an issue with is raids, where thief was already bottom of the pile and redundant anyway.

Sorry for going off on a rant. I may be wrong but I just don't understand how fighting a stationary target can be compared to fighting an enemy. Hell while testing out rifle for pvp I used a sweet rotation that would take out the npc professions flawlessly. Guess what, not so easy in an actual match. I don't mean this with a hint of malice (pun intended) but I'd be much obliged if you could explain how fighting a Golem reflects real pve. Because as far as i can make out the numbers DO LIE. They leave out the whole fighting part...

tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp

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@"Asphelt.6802" said:tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp

It's this simple.

You measure DPS on stationary target with prior traits.You measure DPS on same target with new traits.

Result: Old traits/system offered greater DPS gains to both P/P and Rifle. New system offers equal DPS to old Rifle if you use D/D.I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.You can add your variables afterwards, but the bottom line is this: You lost DPS and a significant amount if you use P/P or Rifle and you gain a LOT of DPS if you use D/D.

Old Rifle DPS

New Rifle DPS has not been parsed (Might do a video of it later but here's a screenshot in the meantime, it's 26.5K DPS if you don't want to click) https://image.ibb.co/hfueJy/DEpost5_8patch.png

Old D/D DPS: was abysmal, around 18-19K DPS, I don't have logged screenshots or parses of it 'cause I almost never used it in raids.New D/D DPS

Old P/P DPS was around 24-26K from some old screenshots I am pulling up.New is around 21-23K DPS when parsed.

Does this help you understand?

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Here's more numbers, courtesy of Kitty from this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39218/so-i-was-skeptical-about-the-de-changes

Kitty now tested rest of pure DPS deadeye builds and she got this kind of results (don't mind the %s, Kitty's using 34k as fixed point to compare her results to):Power Deadeye 28255 (Dagger+Dagger)83%Power Deadeye 26941 (Dagger+Dagger Auto-attack+HS+SF+Mark)79%Power Thief 25611 (Dagger+Dagger)75%Power Deadeye 25168 (Rifle)74%Power Deadeye 24426 (Sword/X Auto-Attack+SF+Mark)72%Power Deadeye 23555 (Sword/Dagger Rotation)69%Power Deadeye 21541 (Pistol/Pistol)63%Power Thief 21468 (Pistol/Pistol)63%Power Deadeye 20843 (Sword/Pistol Pistol Whips)61%Power Thief 19942 (Sword/X Auto-Attack)59%Power Deadeye 17611 (Pistol/Dagger)51%

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@"Asphelt.6802" said:tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp

It's this simple.

You measure DPS on stationary target with prior traits.You measure DPS on same target with new traits.

Result: Old traits/system offered greater DPS gains to both P/P and Rifle. New system offers equal DPS to old Rifle if you use D/D.I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.You can add your variables afterwards, but the bottom line is this: You lost DPS and a significant amount if you use P/P or Rifle and you gain a LOT of DPS if you use D/D.

Old Rifle DPS:
New Rifle DPS has not been parsed (Might do a video of it later but here's a screenshot in the meantime)

Old D/D DPS: was abysmal, around 18-19K DPS, I don't have logged screenshots or parses of it 'cause I almost never used it in raids.New D/D DPS:

Does this help you understand?

No not really. Look at the first video. He is just sitting there while the Golem takes it. You try that against a hydra and you're toast. Hydras first attack is a considerable knockdown that hits hard, then it charges which launches. Before you had to wait 11 seconds at the least to fire off a max DJ. Now you can do it in 3, plus it is faster and unblockable. Now whether it should be a stealth skill is another matter, most seem to argue not. My point is the benchmark being lower over time is irrelevant if the benchmark is nonviable in a fight. My experience in pve against things that actual try to stop you killing them, is that I can now drop the vast majority of enemies faster. WITH RIFLE. Babazhook says the same for P/P and honestly I believe him. What you are showing me would never work in pve.

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@Asphelt.6802 said:No not really. Look at the first video. He is just sitting there while the Golem takes it. You try that against a hydra and you're toast. Hydras first attack is a considerable knockdown that hits hard, then it charges which launches. Before you had to wait 11 seconds at the least to fire off a max DJ. Now you can do it in 3, plus it is faster and unblockable. Now whether it should be a stealth skill is another matter, most seem to argue not. My point is the benchmark being lower over time is irrelevant if the benchmark is nonviable in a fight. My experience in pve against things that actual try to stop you killing them, is that I can now drop the vast majority of enemies faster. WITH RIFLE. Babazhook says the same for P/P and honestly I believe him. What you are showing me would never work in pve.

That's a variable.If you add that to old Deadeye system and new Deadeye system, the old one will kill it first regardless of what variables you throw at it.It does more damage no matter what variables you throw at both. In the end, one of the two DOES MORE DAMAGE.How... how do you not understand this?No one expects you to hit 31K DPS in a raid boss consistently (Outside of maybe MO).The idea is that this measures your MAXIMUM output and the results are in, new Malice/Rework of Deadeye is inferior to old one in damage output.

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@Asphelt.6802 said:

@babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.Numbers don't lie.

I'd never heard of these SFTGs before you mentioned them and after a quick google I'm gonna weigh in. The following may come from ignorance and is a tad of a rant.

THEY DON'T FIGHT BACK. You cannot in pve expect to stand nonchalantly and churn out a perfect dps rotation against, say a hydra or a forged raiding party. Same goes for rifle. Dps would have you spam 3 for both weapons, but enemies block, pull, stun, reflect etc. The fight doesn't start after 11 seconds when you have accumulated your maximum malice 21% while the mob has a cuppa (unless you're a ghillie sniper taking 21 seconds to kill a target you could drop in half that time). Now you come in and boom you're doing a potential 15% off the bat. You're average dude isn't gonna last 11 seconds, hell you can drop a veteran in that time. And like babazhook says you can now do more unload due to initiative regain. Sure against a boss you maybe lose overall dps after a while. Maybe. A while. But you can't solo a group event. The only thing i can see this being an issue with is raids, where thief was already bottom of the pile and redundant anyway.

Sorry for going off on a rant. I may be wrong but I just don't understand how fighting a stationary target can be compared to fighting an enemy. Hell while testing out rifle for pvp I used a sweet rotation that would take out the npc professions flawlessly. Guess what, not so easy in an actual match. I don't mean this with a hint of malice (pun intended) but I'd be much obliged if you could explain how fighting a Golem reflects real pve. Because as far as i can make out the numbers DO LIE. They leave out the whole fighting part...

tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp

The test is on golems to control stats and you get a potential number, that flat dps loss translates into other games modes regardless of how far you're pushing to into those numbers. Running a tanky build and trolling trash or squad tails where you're not hitting a threshold doesn't mean it's fine it just means you're not building to hit that potential. It seems like the main argument is, thief sucks anyway so use a different weapon and clean up trash. I only play WvW so I guess I can't really weight in on most of this but it's a big change and there's clearly a major difference in numbers that regardless of our thoughts on it shouldn't be outright dismissed because it's working out fine for some themed builds.

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@Tashigi.3159 said:

@"Asphelt.6802" said:No not really. Look at the first video. He is just sitting there while the Golem takes it. You try that against a hydra and you're toast. Hydras first attack is a considerable knockdown that hits hard, then it charges which launches. Before you had to wait 11 seconds at the least to fire off a max DJ. Now you can do it in 3, plus it is faster and unblockable. Now whether it should be a stealth skill is another matter, most seem to argue not. My point is the benchmark being lower over time is irrelevant if the benchmark is nonviable in a fight. My experience in pve against things that actual try to stop you killing them, is that I can now drop the vast majority of enemies faster. WITH RIFLE. Babazhook says the same for P/P and honestly I believe him. What you are showing me would never work in pve.

That's a variable.If you add that to old Deadeye system and new Deadeye system, the old one will kill it first regardless of what variables you throw at it.It does more damage no matter what variables you throw at both. In the end, one of the two DOES MORE DAMAGE.How... how do you not understand this?No one expects you to hit 31K DPS in a raid boss consistently (Outside of maybe MO).The idea is that this measures your MAXIMUM output and the results are in, new Malice/Rework of Deadeye is inferior to old one in damage output.

What variables are these? How can you know that? I can now fire DJ at max malice while on the move to avoid any stuns within 4 seconds. How can you possibly know from hitting an inanimate object how you perform in a fight?

"No matter what variables..." Explain this to me I don't get it. How can you know this from an inanimate object? It doesn't account for that awkward FIGHTING BACK variable. Give me one more chance, and if I still don't get it then I'll call it a night, or a morning...

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