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An Eye on the Deadeye


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@Klypto.1703 said:Yeah they really should put the stealth back onto the rifle #5 especially since the dodge roll requires you to use the rifle when doing it. Plus its not a daredevil so it has no endurance management and then weapons stated like s/p and p/p have very little access to stealth to use their malicious attack.

This could be fixed by having one of the offhand pistol skills give stealth. As it is, it's the only weapon set that can't stealth itself somehow (rifle has one, but it is clunky, being the use of #4 for the field, and kneel #4 for the finisher).

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After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

  1. With the redesign of 'Silent Scope' (no stealth without entering into combat first), rifle-thieves cannot move into tactical advanced positions without using some utility-/elite skills that they will need even more now as a fight proceeds (with the new Malice generation).Attention: Silent Scope does not work as tool-tipp suggests! It won't trigger stealth if you (out-of-combat) rifle-dodge-roll an attack - even as it says "Evaded!"

So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

  1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

  1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

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@"Jay Felger.2510" said:After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

i kill alot faster in wvw now, not much to laught there for my opponents. but i dont onehit anymore as i can play alot more aggressive now due to dodge -> stealh.

  1. With the redesign of 'Silent Scope' (no stealth without entering into combat first), rifle-thieves cannot move into tactical advanced positions without using some utility-/elite skills that they will need even more now as a fight proceeds (with the new Malice generation).Attention: Silent Scope does not work as tool-tipp suggests! It won't trigger stealth if you (out-of-combat) rifle-dodge-roll an attack - even as it says "Evaded!"

if you evade the inital hit , you still are not in combat = no stealth. they will remove the incombar restriction tho according to a dev post in the other thread as it is already limited by endurance wich doesnt generate faster out of combat i guess.

So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

this aswell will be fixed as the stealth will be moved towards the end of the roll. then our survivability is alot better as a dodge is uninteruptable compared to old rifle 5. we only had 1 uniterruptable stealth with blinding powder, now we can spamm uninterruptable stealth.

  1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

we can ovarll preassure them alot easier down now as we got more resources , m7 gives us 7 ini back and we dont need ini for stealth anymore, ontop DJ is now unblockable and faster. but yes our oneshot potential is lower now, i was able to oneshot commanders in their full minstrel stuff if they didnt have protection up, now i need some hits but if i do not want to wait 1-2 minutes i already have to hit them for a m7 DJ.

  1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

i dont have issues hitting my targets to build up malice, tho i am more in smallscale. thats probably different in largescale as there is in a good group 100% projectile hate uptime.In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

a visible mark is also a psycholocical advantage you can use. even after the patch i was able several times to make someone run away from their mates because of mark and they usually dont return till their friend is down.i would prefer to have short duration unblockable buff option (e.g. while revealed), preferably replacing MI so we actually need to attack to get malice but we also have an easier time hitting our target then with that traited against heavy projectile hate.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Jay Felger.2510" said:After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

i kill alot faster in wvw now, not much to laught there for my opponents. but i dont onehit anymore as i can play alot more aggressive now due to dodge -> stealh.Well, maybe there is a difference of player-quality here.My opponents seem to have constant-evade,block/reflect up-time.Right now, there is no reliable dodge/stealth!I could play as aggresive with the old Knee/stealth system! (which was reliable)
  1. With the redesign of 'Silent Scope' (no stealth without entering into combat first), rifle-thieves cannot move into tactical advanced positions without using some utility-/elite skills that they will need even more now as a fight proceeds (with the new Malice generation).Attention:
    Silent Scope
    does not work as tool-tipp suggests! It
    won't trigger stealth if you (out-of-combat) rifle-dodge-roll an attack - even as it says "Evaded!"

if you evade the inital hit , you still are not in combat = no stealth. they will remove the incombar restriction tho according to a dev post in the other thread as it is already limited by endurance wich doesnt generate faster out of combat i guess.

We will see.

So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

this aswell will be fixed as the stealth will be moved towards the end of the roll. then our survivability is alot better as a dodge is uninteruptable compared to old rifle 5. we only had 1 uniterruptable stealth with blinding powder, now we can spamm uninterruptable stealth.

...but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!
  1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

we can ovarll preassure them alot easier down now as we got more resources , m7 gives us 7 ini back and we dont need ini for stealth anymore, ontop DJ is now unblockable and faster. but yes our oneshot potential is lower now, i was able to oneshot commanders in their full minstrel stuff if they didnt have protection up, now i need some hits but if i do not want to wait 1-2 minutes i already have to hit them for a m7 DJ.

Well, it used to take max. 20-21 seconds (not1-2min) to build-up 7 malice stacks. You have to reach 7 stack to get initiative back (which I didn't need to be honest)
  1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

i dont have issues hitting my targets to build up malice, tho i am more in smallscale. thats probably different in largescale as there is in a good group 100% projectile hate uptime.If you don't have issues hitting your targets, then you don't need malice at all, because they'll be dead by your none steath-finishers. ;-)In that regard,
I want to make the following suggestion
that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer,
please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".
There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

a visible mark is also a psycholocical advantage you can use. even after the patch i was able several times to make someone run away from their mates because of mark and they usually dont return till their friend is down.

Maybe those who have run haven't heard about those changes yet. xDUsually they gather around those who are marked, good luck with fighting a larger group.I used to pick out single players even in a larger group on my own. Now, you can't because they will rezz them before you can down them!i would prefer to have short duration unblockable buff option (e.g. while revealed), preferably replacing MI so we actually need to attack to get malice but we also have an easier time hitting our target then with that traited against heavy projectile hate.

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@Jay Felger.2510 said:

@Jay Felger.2510 said:After I did some testing, I come to following conclusion:Regarding deadliness of rifle-thieves in WvW, it feels more of a deadeye-kitten now and the "formerly feared Mark" let enemies laugh in your face.

i kill alot faster in wvw now, not much to laught there for my opponents. but i dont onehit anymore as i can play alot more aggressive now due to dodge -> stealh.Well, maybe there is a difference of player-quality here.My opponents seem to have constant-evade,block/reflect up-time.Right now, there is no reliable dodge/stealth!I could play as aggresive with the old Knee/stealth system! (which was reliable)i dunno my current opposing servers are indeed not known for their superior skill. tho what is a good player these days? i mean my opponents use blocks reflects etc but the only one with a 100% uptime is a mesmer with evasive mirror trait that spamms evades. if they are no mirage then binding shadows out of stealth mostly does the job here and if they are a mirage well then the fight will last a while but they still should have a much harder time to kill you now then before the patch, unless ofc you backstab onehit mirages like i did before patch, you can still do that. rifle was and is a bad weapon to fight mirages with evasive mirror.So, rifle-deadeyes lost some defensive capabilities by combining a dodge roll with "an attempt to stealth" which may or may not trigger and maybe even get them "revealed" as soon as a bullet hits after the dodge-roll-stealth-success!

this aswell will be fixed as the stealth will be moved towards the end of the roll. then our survivability is alot better as a dodge is uninteruptable compared to old rifle 5. we only had 1 uniterruptable stealth with blinding powder, now we can spamm uninterruptable stealth.

...but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!yes and then you wait at that point in stealth ? you are right quality of a player matters.
  1. Death's Judgement max. damage reduction of 11% (5% with Premeditation and Maleficent Seven, without Silent Scope).These 1-2k damage make the difference of bringing down a heavy armoured full-HP player or not. (players healing to full-HP-level in seconds is not that uncommon)

Also, a 2nd up-to full-malice-stack-Death's Judgement in a row is not possible anymore.You have to build-up Malice stacks again. That's a massive burst-damage reduction.

we can ovarll preassure them alot easier down now as we got more resources , m7 gives us 7 ini back and we dont need ini for stealth anymore, ontop DJ is now unblockable and faster. but yes our oneshot potential is lower now, i was able to oneshot commanders in their full minstrel stuff if they didnt have protection up, now i need some hits but if i do not want to wait 1-2 minutes i already have to hit them for a m7 DJ.

Well, it used to take max. 20-21 seconds (not1-2min) to build-up 7 malice stacks. You have to reach 7 stack to get initiative back (which I didn't need to be honest)it did take 18-21 seconds without attacking and now it takes 1-2 mins without attacking, because the people on the recieving end didnt really enjoy this. the amount of players that will tryhard wait 1-2 minutes is alot lower then the amount of players that will wait 20s for a oneshot. ofc i assume you attack your opponents so you get ini back rather quickly. you didnt need ini but said something about 2 DJs in a row , that was 12 ini before patch, so you were not able to spamm skills before this. now DJ costs 0 ini so you can use your other ini skills alot in between DJs.
  1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

i dont have issues hitting my targets to build up malice, tho i am more in smallscale. thats probably different in largescale as there is in a good group 100% projectile hate uptime.If you don't have issues hitting your targets, then you don't need malice at all, because they'll be dead by your none steath-finishers. ;-)that is correct, many are so low when m7 kicks in that i go for another TRB/spotters instead of dodge and dj as it is faster. also endure pain and signet of stone are awesome malice sources. crit for 0 dmg => 2 malice :3In that regard,
I want to make the following suggestion
that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer,
please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".
There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

a visible mark is also a psycholocical advantage you can use. even after the patch i was able several times to make someone run away from their mates because of mark and they usually dont return till their friend is down.

Maybe those who have run haven't heard about those changes yet. xDUsually they gather around those who are marked, good luck with fighting a larger group.I used to pick out single players even in a larger group on my own. Now, you can't because they will rezz them before you can down them!i did run into many DEs since patch in WvW testing the changes, they were indeed no threat at all. but after killing people a few times they will start to fear your mark again.
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This could be fixed by having one of the offhand pistol skills give stealth. As it is, it's the only weapon set that can't stealth itself somehow (rifle has one, but it is clunky, being the use of #4 for the field, and kneel #4 for the finisher).

The fly in the ointment here is d/p which already has high and easily stackable stealth access. Put more on off hand via Pistol and the dynamics of that entire spec change. Off hand Pistol with Headshot with its interrupt and potential PI and Black powder, with its Pulsing blind, smoke field and stealth access via leap are already very potent and trying to fit in added stealth will force a takeaway on one of the existing skills. Now it POSSIBLE that the last shot of the unload chain be deemed a blast finisher but that will load too much into that singular skill and we will still get the reveal when that last shot hits.

SB is nother weaponset that does not have self stealth. The only real way to stealth while staying in SB is to Utility up a smoke field and this no different really then p/p using a utility for stealth.

The underlying issue is we have a very limited range of weapons for off hand , that being Dagger and Pistol. If ONE of them does not allow stealth access then this affects half the builds we can make for two weapons. Fundamentally , just as staff and SB have no innate stealth access , there nothing wrong with a two weapon build not having the same issues within their skillset. The issue is there should be MORE weapon sets than not that can allow this if we are going to have a traitline that requires that stealth.

As such I think the issue is really our variety of off hand weapons. I really think to address this the next expansion needs a NEW off hand weapon and this new offhand weapon has innate stealth access.

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@Jay Felger.2510 said:i dunno my current opposing servers are indeed not known for their superior skill. tho what is a good player these days? i mean my opponents use blocks reflects etc but the only one with a 100% uptime is a mesmer with evasive mirror trait that spamms evades. if they are no mirage then binding shadows out of stealth mostly does the job here and if they are a mirage well then the fight will last a while but they still should have a much harder time to kill you now then before the patch, unless ofc you backstab onehit mirages like i did before patch, you can still do that. rifle was and is a bad weapon to fight mirages with evasive mirror.I was talking about Spellbreaker actually. Hardest to kill due-to like 100% evade/block-time these days with right equipment/skills....but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!yes and then you wait at that point in stealth ? you are right quality of a player matters.I was talking about opponent players here, not you. No need to feel offended.Good Spellbreaker and Holosmiths will hit that area and get them revealed the second a deadey will dodge-stealth towards a specific direction, if they can see where the dodging goes and stealth afterwards.... ofc i assume you attack your opponents so you get ini back rather quickly. you didnt need ini but said something about 2 DJs in a row , that was 12 ini before patch, so you were not able to spamm skills before this. now DJ costs 0 ini so you can use your other ini skills alot in between DJs.Deadeyes where able to spam DJs twice in a row (no skill in between needed) even if it cost 12 Initiative (even without Trickery; but with Shadow's Rejuvenation).I did it all the times. High risk, high reward. If they evaded the first, the 2nd did hit them more offen than not! xD
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@Jay Felger.2510 said:

@Jay Felger.2510 said:i dunno my current opposing servers are indeed not known for their superior skill. tho what is a good player these days? i mean my opponents use blocks reflects etc but the only one with a 100% uptime is a mesmer with evasive mirror trait that spamms evades. if they are no mirage then binding shadows out of stealth mostly does the job here and if they are a mirage well then the fight will last a while but they still should have a much harder time to kill you now then before the patch, unless ofc you backstab onehit mirages like i did before patch, you can still do that. rifle was and is a bad weapon to fight mirages with evasive mirror.I was talking about Spellbreaker actually. Hardest to kill due-to like 100% evade/block-time these days with right equipment/skills.oh spellbreakers, well they are melee usually and aside from bullscharge and triggered FC can be hit during each of their hits. so i kite them with mainly DR , if they want to attack or close gap other then bullscharge they will let me hit them. when they use shield, no matter how much malice i will fire a DJ , they can cancel block with dodge then or eat the shot. i dont wait till they are in melee with DR / stealth....but enemies will see where you are going to dodge towards. Again, the quality of a player matters!yes and then you wait at that point in stealth ? you are right quality of a player matters.I was talking about opponent players here, not you. No need to feel offended.Good Spellbreaker and Holosmiths will hit that area and get them revealed the second a deadey will dodge-stealth towards a specific direction, if they can see where the dodging goes and stealth afterwards.no worries i am not offended but playerskill on their part is valuable as much as playerskill on yours. if you know your opponent is good enough to spike instantly the end of your roll, before you can leave that spot, then dont let them come that close to you before you go into stealth or only if you can dodge multiple times if you want to bait their attacks.... ofc i assume you attack your opponents so you get ini back rather quickly. you didnt need ini but said something about 2 DJs in a row , that was 12 ini before patch, so you were not able to spamm skills before this. now DJ costs 0 ini so you can use your other ini skills alot in between DJs.Deadeyes where able to spam DJs twice in a row (no skill in between needed) even if it cost 12 Initiative (even without Trickery; but with Shadow's Rejuvenation).I did it all the times. High risk, high reward. If they evaded the first, the 2nd did hit them more offen than not! xDi know i did it aswell. mostly put in 1-2 AA tho so they stop being defensive and try hit me while 2nd DJ hits them. for a pure oneshot rifle build that is correct that got nerfed. oneshot dagger got buffed in potency while probably nerfed in efficiency due to longer wait now. but as we can now use endurance for stealth and get ini back for reaching m7, we do have alot more resources we can use to attack our opponents. this promotes a more aggressive playstyle rather then just wait m7 and shoot.

IMO the overall potential of a DE with a rifle in hand is alot better now simply cause better resource management and alot of uninterruptable stealth access.

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@"Jay Felger.2510" said:

  1. Malice generation to full "Maleficent Seven"-level is way more harder now with all the evades, blocks, reflects while being more vulnerable while constantly attacking.Haven't seen many players (if any) using "Maleficent Seven" anymore (in WvW).Actually I've seen more and more players now who don't even bother with the "Mark" (in WvW), because it doesn't give you that much of a benefit anymore for all the risks it brings by alarming your target (and other players) and giving them time to counterplay.

In that regard, I want to make the following suggestion that will give deadeyes a certain tactical improvement (please let it linger in your mind for a moment):Since the new Mark-Malice(-not-time-based-generation)-system does not impose any threat in itself any longer, please consider redesigning the Mark as "not visible to enemies".There is no need for a glowing Orb pulsing above players heads anymore. Lets be clear on that.If deadeyes have to heavily invest into a fight by constantly attacking with initiative-using-damage skills/critical hits in order to build-up a significant amount of Malice, enemy-players know something serious is coming for them. No more additional heads-up necessary.

That was something I had thought might happen with the change, i.e. the change to malice being at best (outside of dagger/dagger), only used to get some bonus effects from cantrips and other effects you might get form it are just extras, and at worst, just not using mark at all.

Along with removing the glowing orb over someone's head (so at least the foes can't see it), making it instant-cast would also be welcomed.

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Honestly, all of Deadeye just needs to be reverted to its previous iteration. As stated earlier, this is just busywork nonsense to even accomplish a fraction of what it was capable of before. It had many weaknesses that offset its strengths, but instead it got the hammer that only pushed it further into the red. It plays poorly, unintuitively, and requires even more arbitrary management of endurance that is wasted on stealth, an internal cooldown on said stealth that is easy to break due to stealth's innately weak nature of being broken, on top of Malice which no longer contributes to the player as anything more than another resource management, on top of spending initiative to increase it.

It's a hot mess. That's the short of it. This is not complexity or improving the class. It's just arbitrary.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:

Deadeye as a trailtline is (mostly) fine.

It really isn't. A quick list of issues, in my opinion, from a PvE perspective.
  • The new M7 mechanic is broken for dagger/dagger so either dagger/dagger or M7 needs a rework. It is hard to determine how well it will work with rifle given how bad rifle is currently. M7 should be the trait we take for higher sustained damage in instanced PvE.
  • Be Quick or Be Killed is still a higher sustained DPS option and this has no interplay with the new Malice mechanic. This trait should be for burst builds in PvP and open world PvE, not the best option for sustained raid encounter damage.
  • Fire for Effect doesn't provide enough Might and Fury for long enough (it needs to be 10 might on 10 people for 20 seconds or so) to offset a huge opportunity cost.
  • Collateral Damage is too weak and competes with One in the Chamber - the two should really be merged as they have different usage scenarios.
  • Payback is sadly useless in instanced PvE but could be a very interesting trait if it worked differently.
    Having Payback trigger when consuming Malice and the amount of cooldown reduction being proportional to the amount of Malice used would be a good interplay that would add a slight amount of complexity to Deadeye rotations.
  • Premeditation needs more concentration at a minimum if Fire for Effect isn't reworked since support Deadeyes have no access to Seeker's gear in PvE.

Can you expand on your issues with Payback. I’d like to add this to the consolidated thread OP.

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I just don't understand why any of these changes were made.

If a certain build was dealing too much damage, then nerf the damage that skill combo was creating.

Completely reworking the Deadeye, has destroyed the concept of the class as a "sniper".

This class made Guildwars 2 better than any MMoRPG with the first Sniper class.

These changes were unnecesary, and this balance patch was rushed and not tested properly before being implemented.

Please redesign the DeadEye again, you failed Anet this time. Although I appreciate you trying to make changes, this time you royally screwed up.

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@"OutOfOrder.3719" said:I just don't understand why any of these changes were made.

If a certain build was dealing too much damage, then nerf the damage that skill combo was creating.

Completely reworking the Deadeye, has destroyed the concept of the class as a "sniper".

This class made Guildwars 2 better than any MMoRPG with the first Sniper class.

These changes were unnecesary, and this balance patch was rushed and not tested properly before being implemented.

Please redesign the DeadEye again, you failed Anet this time. Although I appreciate you trying to make changes, this time you royally screwed up.

I have to correct you on something. While yes, I agree the changes were not necessary; GW2 was not the first MMORPG to have a Sniper class. Other MMOs have had Sniper classes before in the past. GW2 was just the first to do it some justice.

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I don't have any issue with the damage, but I think malice should be removable or lost when target is out of line of site. In WvW it can be attached to you, you can go far away and it remain, even if the thief can't see you.

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@saerni.2584 said:Can you expand on your issues with Payback. I’d like to add this to the consolidated thread OP.

@saerni.2584By all means. My issues with Payback primarily stem from how useless it is in instanced PvE, particularly fractal CMs and raids.

As the talent stands it does the following:"When Renewing Gaze triggers, this trait restores a portion of the recharge time needed by your healing, utility, and elite skills."

It activates as a result of Renewing Gaze which is gained by:"Deadeye's Mark recharges if your mark is defeated. Gain regeneration when this recharge occurs."

Therefore, to reduce the recharge time of healing, utility and elite skills, the Marked target needs to die. In raids, this isn't going to happen very often - in some cases it will only be when the boss itself dies! The trait also offers little synergy while competing with Silent Scope (for Rifle) and Premeditation which are both likely to work out much stronger following fixes.

If Payback also worked with Malice consumption to reduce recharge times of healing, utility and elite skills it would be a more valid choice in instanced PvE such as raids and would have far better synergy. For example, if the trait additionally offered "The recharge time needed by your healing, utility, and elite skills is reduced by 0.5 / 1 / 2 seconds when consuming three, five or seven Malice" as well then Payback could become a serious option in instanced PvE while offering far better synergy with the new Malice mechanic and M7. In addition, should we end up with a dagger/dagger heartseeker (x3), cloak and dagger, backstab rotation for a good DPS option, being able to choose Payback and thereby reduce other cooldowns would break up the monotony of the rotation by changing how often abilities like Shadow Flare can be used.

It would create further usage scenarios - can you be sure of 9 boons? Run Premeditation. Are you using Rifle? Run Silent Scope. Happier with a more complex rotation for more frequent utilities or can't be guaranteed enough boons for Premeditation? Use Payback. One of the frequent complaints leveled at Thief is the simplicity of possible rotations - a Malice consuming Payback would add much needed complexity to dagger / dagger rotations.

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=whfuD8A9c88

Check out this guy's video post. It captures the spirit of the changes to the DeadEye Sniper fan base.

It's a unique specialization and draw of First Person shooters and competitive games to a MMO RPG genre. It's a niche and selling point of this expansion. I definitely did not buy this expansion for Mounts, it was to play as a Sniper in my favorite modern rpg of all time.

Overpriced Mounts with forced RNG ruined gemstore purchases for some people and sent the player base into an Outrage. ( I was not one of those players). However, killing the Deadeye Spec really has upset me way more than I ever expected. The changes to the Deadeye has upset me way more than Mount-Gate ever did.

Please review high level play of PvP where Deadeye is still rarely used. The numbers won't lie as the class really appears to be dead now. The only viable builds were P/P and shortbow Deadeyes.

Please save the Deadeye, revert some changes back so the Sniper identity stays intact.

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@bearshaman.3421 said:

@Klypto.1703 said:Yeah they really should put the stealth back onto the rifle #5 especially since the dodge roll requires you to use the rifle when doing it. Plus its not a daredevil so it has no endurance management and then weapons stated like s/p and p/p have very little access to stealth to use their malicious attack.

This could be fixed by having one of the offhand pistol skills give stealth. As it is, it's the only weapon set that can't stealth itself somehow (rifle has one, but it is clunky, being the use of #4 for the field, and kneel #4 for the finisher).

Yeah is just too much micromanagement in an actual fight in wvw to get instant stealth out of that rifle #4 then switching to a dagger or standing up to hit #4 standing rifle skill to activate stealth. I think they should change it to where the kneel out of combat stealths and then dodge roll while in combat would balance it. Then for like the offhand pistol some kind of stealth which also brings the shortbow one has a lot of condi application if it didn't reveal you like the projectile issue with rifle does too and better access to stealth than wasting a 30 second cd or the elite when you don't want to use it yet.

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Things I can get over:-Lack of Stealth utility skills-Having Burst tied to stealth-A cumbersome and messy play style-The overall feel that you're playing a beta spec-The fact that the dead eye is somehow even more non-intuitive than it was before-The fact that Rifle is possibly the worst PVE weapon in the game

What I can't get over:

  • The totally unpredictable, head-scratching, and frustrating way this game coded stealth. Seriously, if you're going to tie deadeye to stealth even harder, you HAVE to improve how stealth behaves. I've resorted to actually TURNING AROUND FROM MY TARGET, so a random auto attack doesn't break me out of stealth WITHOUT shooting DJ. If you're channeling an auto before you go into stealth to proc DJ, it'll actually break you out of stealth WITHOUT proccing DJ and puts your stealth utility on CD. It feels like actual garbage. Why would ANYONE bother with such a headache when you can just run p/p?
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@Adamsdjr.1350 said:Things I can get over:-Lack of Stealth utility skills-Having Burst tied to stealth-A cumbersome and messy play style-The overall feel that you're playing a beta spec-The fact that the dead eye is somehow even more non-intuitive than it was before-The fact that Rifle is possibly the worst PVE weapon in the game

I think that is one of the more interesting aspects of how badly this rework went. As Thieves, we've put up and shut up with a lot of bad changes or general neglect in PvE. I remember being completely mystified why Hook Strike received the 1 second stealth attack CD when the issue was clearly d/p, not staff. And Daredevil has been left basically untouched aside from a QoL change (Weakening Charge) and the Stolen Skills since about two years ago.

We've tolerated quite a bit of questionable design as a community but with this rework we are finally speaking out, some of us for the first time. As a profession which can only offer DPS, we do that poorly compared other professions which can offer decent DPS and utility and support builds in PvE. Hopefully with these discussions that will change for the better.

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I only started trying out DE rifle this weekend . It took a while to get used to the changes but I am starting to get the hang of it. It if anything more survivable then before and
DJ shot is not as bad as i was expecting it to be based on what I was reading here. I think if they get the stealth after the dodge a lot of issues solved. I would not mind seeing snipers cover be a bit more smooth such as auto place of the Smoke field or another second on duration. DJ damage it not as it once was on a singular hit but the unblockable nature of it results in me getting more hits in. It does not have the same "sniper feel" it once did but I am starting to prefer this more active form of malice over the one built on over time.

I rejigged my build and found TR is no where near the must have it once was albeit the daze from SOH missed given there no longer an Unforgiving. Cursed bullet missed but I am switched over to rending shade to get that boon steal. It was just such a nice combo with Cursed. I really think there a place to put Cursed back. I am currently using DA/DE/SA .

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@Volrath.1473 said:Changing the steath from the beginning of the dodge roll to the end won't fix everything, if you use a short it will give you the reveal just as it does now...

I am not so sure on that. While I did have shots that revealed me current system , I started adapting to that so as to ensure it did not happen. Easier said then done in many instances when you also need that dodge to avoid damage but I would like to see end of roll as a comparison.

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@Specialka.7290 said:The issue I have with the stealth at the end of the roll is that the opponent know where you will land. Yes, we can move after the roll, but I see this as a nerf in Pvp.

The KNEEL for stealth did not require he knew where you landed as your stealth location was where you kneeled. I am not sure what the issue is here. When I used the old mechanic I tended to relocate once I used a kneel so as to prevent the area I was in getting bombed. I would do the same with Stealth at end of roll.

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