An Eye on the Deadeye

[Specialka.7290]

@Khazik.8052 said:Guys, Farcry 5 is pretty fun... jusayin.

If you have bad taste.

[SchlemazelTov.7310]

I'm really surprised by the lack of communication. Anet makes it seem like some grandiose task just to acknowledge that you're aware of people's concerns. I'm not talking about having a whole PR team. I'm talking about the developers talking directly with (or at) players on occasion. Like, browse the forums for a few minutes while you poop.

I think a lot of people would like some assurance that their concerns are recognized.

P.S. Small incremental changes Anet.. plz

[Hikarifuxi.4761]

It's been a few pages ago since I last posted in this thread, but I was always observing it, mainly hoping to get a statement from the other side.I am really disappointed there is nothing so far. Not a single word. It feels to me we just have to swallow what they did, no matter how many people are unhappy now. It looks to me they just wait until this thread dies and the "crybabies are done with whining", and this is not really a nice treatment towards us players.Even after many people who clearly have deeper knowledge about the thief than I since they mained it for years, who given somewhat "evidence" in videos, arguments and statistics that it is not that of a great change for the most deadeye players.

The past weeks I really tried to get used to it because I do not want to abandon my Deadeye.. As many people said before already, I have put a lot into this character as well because I loved to play him. But right now the main thing I do with him is farming wood and iron, he really deserves better xD" It really annoys me that malice isn't rising by itself anymore, and especially the damage I do now is frustrating me. It is not worth anymore to work forward death judgement and I don't even want to waste a word again about the stealth + dodge roll stuff.

Fact is, I do see a lot Daredevil Thiefs now again. I haven't seen any since PoF tbh, but it seems many have changed the profession because of that and this, I think, tells more about an update than just "crying around in the forum"..Deep inside I still hope they already figure out a middle way for us, even though I would probably cry for joy if they would change it back completely. But I am afraid that's just a dream.

[Specialka.7290]

Just a dream and it is stupid to think it was better before. The rotation is much better now. Damage is not for sure, but they will tweak it eventually. They shoud also add some F3/F4/F5 skills as well. I would like to have Mercy as F3, Shadow Gust as F4 and binding shadow as F5. Thx very much.

[bq pd.2148]

@"Hikarifuxi.4761" said:Fact is, I do see a lot Daredevil Thiefs now again. I haven't seen any since PoF tbh, but it seems many have changed the profession because of that and this, I think, tells more about an update than just "crying around in the forum"..probably depends on mode, in WvW in EU there were never many deadeyes for extended periods. after each patch you see alot of thieves try out the new changes but most drop it after few days. there was more daredevil and core thieves since PoF release here. deadeye is after the patch still nearly at the same point in WvW as it was before, people will say deadeye is weak and anyone playing it got 0 skill and if you happen to kill them its because you got carried by that weak build. there are few differences now to before the patch tho. good players you can now kill easier then before patch ( mainly cause MBackstab and stealth on dodge being uninterruptable), but fighting bad players in a large group is now harder, before you would just go for a oneshot in such a situation to not rise suspicion and with the suprise would have enough time for the stomp, now you either need to wait nearly 2min in wich anyone will realize the mark and most probably communicate or you need to attack before but that will cause his allies to get ready to ressurect.

@Specialka.7290 said:Just a dream and it is stupid to think it was better before. The rotation is much better now. Damage is not for sure, but they will tweak it eventually. They shoud also add some F3/F4/F5 skills as well. I would like to have Mercy as F3, Shadow Gust as F4 and binding shadow as F5. Thx very much.

what do we get as utilities instead then? i mean i have a few ideas here one example :scapegoatyour marked target connects to up to 5 nearby other targets and takes 100% of the damage they recieve for 5 seconds. cooldown 25 seconds.this way deadeye can copy the cleave damage onto the main target for not having cleave damage on his own. putting that on a mesmer while killing the clones could be little OP, but hey everyone hates mesmers so its fine :D

[Hikarifuxi.4761]

@"Specialka.7290" said:Just a dream and it is stupid to think it was better before. The rotation is much better now. Damage is not for sure, but they will tweak it eventually. They shoud also add some F3/F4/F5 skills as well. I would like to have Mercy as F3, Shadow Gust as F4 and binding shadow as F5. Thx very much.

It can't be that stupid if so many think it's a bad update. Good for you though, that you think it is more "fun" now. At least one happy person among many that are not.

[Specialka.7290]

@Hikarifuxi.4761 said:

@"Specialka.7290" said:Just a dream and it is stupid to think it was better before. The rotation is much better now. Damage is not for sure, but they will tweak it eventually. They shoud also add some F3/F4/F5 skills as well. I would like to have Mercy as F3, Shadow Gust as F4 and binding shadow as F5. Thx very much.

It can't be that stupid if so many think it's a bad "update". Good for you though, that you think it is more "fun" now. At least one happy person among many that are not.

Which so many? What about those that did not say anything at all? It is always the most negatives ppl that will speak up. Unless you have some source to back your claim up, it is just BS.

[Asahi.1487]

I play only wvw/spvp. In wvw the DE changes actually buffed d/x builds. I can 1 shot people running full defensive gear. For rifle, it's in between TTK went up, but unblockable DJ is fun. Rifle 4 is clunky and the utility skills can use some fixing. Overall all can still kill things just got to play it differently

[Lucinellia.9247]

@"Hikarifuxi.4761" said:It looks to me they just wait until this thread dies and the "crybabies are done with whining", and this is not really a nice treatment towards us players.Even after many people who clearly have deeper knowledge about the thief than I since they mained it for years, who given somewhat "evidence" in videos, arguments and statistics that it is not that of a great change for the most deadeye players.

Yip, it really does feel like this. This change to Deadeye has made me reevaluate what I actually enjoy about the game. I'd love to main Thief in high-end PvE but the profession is in such a bad spot in PvE and the ease of gearing alts so high that the expectation is there that you'll play something else. In all my main static groups this week I've played Chronomancer and was only able to play Deadeye because I offered backup to a different group. Even then, I was taken as disposable DPS.

And having to jump onto Chronomancer (or Druid) just adds to the realisation of how poor instanced PvE balance is. Thief has been lacking utility for over three years - the same amount of time in which Chronomancer has been a pretty much mandatory 20% of a raid (or fractal) group while there has always been a spot for Druid and Warrior because of brokenly good passive boons. I had really hoped that things would change with PoF or shortly after given this developer interview.

PvE Specialist: When the team created instanced content such as high-level fractals and raids, what was their vision for class diversity? How has that changed and adapted as the game evolved through expansions?

A core tenant of Guild Wars 2 gameplay is that each class can essentially perform everything they need to play the game. Each class needs to feel thematically and mechanically unique, but they also need to be self-sufficient. That’s a critical component of designing for instanced group content. Making sure no class is explicitly cut out of an encounter due to a mechanic is always at the forefront of our design process. For example, we won’t create an encounter that requires players to use Memser portals to complete.As we were developing Raids early on we wanted the players to feel comfortable bringing whatever they enjoy playing. To achieve this we focused on developing Build and Play Roles into all our encounters. A Build Role will define what skills player are encouraged to bring: condition cleanses, stun breaks, crowd control, etc. Play Roles are where we get to be more creative, and typically they define mechanics in an encounter. They can be as simple as clustering a few players at a specific point to prevent raid-wide damage, or more interactive like smashing an orb with your attacks to move it through goal posts. What’s important is that these Play Roles encourage fun game play, and don’t punish players for playing the class they enjoy playing.Overall, that design principle hasn’t changed. Raids and fractals remain mostly unaffected as far as balance is concerned because we are able to design them around game play mechanics, and not around what unique class gimmicks are being brought. It is possible to run all raid and fractal encounters with a fully Thief party - and those videos are amazing to watch.

Currently, the bolded parts are simply untrue. No profession, aside from possibly Mesmer can perform everything needed to play the game. Many classes are explicitly cut out of encounters due to a mechanic (Dhuum CM with the dominance of Epidemic bouncing and the difficulty power compositions have in meeting the enrage timer is a perfect example) and "Play Roles" absolutely punish players for playing the class they enjoy - Deadeye can't even use Stealth properly on Deimos without Shadowmeld work arounds.

It is a real pity. I love and adore this game but I miss the feeling of having an actual main, not just the profession I like the most but what I bring to high-end content to progress with and not a profession I have to fight to play and end up slogging through another raid as Druid or Chronomancer instead. This feeling of having a true main character, and any sort of diversity in instanced PvE (hi Chronomancer having 20% of a raid for over three years now), is sorely lacking in Guild Wars 2 at the moment and I'm seriously considering subscribing to WoW again so I can stick with one class and enjoy the more challenging PvE content with it and not constantly be expected to play something else of which there is no variation or alternatives.

[babazhook.6805]

It took a bit of getting used to , but I am finding DE plays better for me then before at least in WvW where I spend most of my time. The Rifle spec jus needs a few more tweaks and they need to do some work on the weaker traits along with looking at Malice gain on low precision builds.

[Jumpel.3972]

There are some bug/issues with these news changes.

• DJ without be kneel sems to doesn't get the crit chance bonus from silent scope but the DJ tooltip and the trait silent scope say it the bonus should applie
• When you stealth sometime the stealth attack launch him self for no reason, with the rifle it's end by an unwanted reavel...
• In some configuration longbow ranger seems to bypass the new #4 on rifle (or maybe ranger have some skill/trait to make projectile unblockable that i don't know)

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Jumpel.3972 said:There are some bug/issues with these news changes.

• DJ without be kneel sems to doesn't get the crit chance bonus from silent scope but the DJ tooltip and the trait silent scope say it the bonus should applie
• When you stealth sometime the stealth attack launch him self for no reason, with the rifle it's end by an unwanted reavel...
• In some configuration longbow ranger seems to bypass the new #4 on rifle (or maybe ranger have some skill/trait to make projectile unblockable that i don't know)

Aye they do have some unblockables

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Jumpel.3972 said:There are some bug/issues with these news changes.

• DJ without be kneel sems to doesn't get the crit chance bonus from silent scope but the DJ tooltip and the trait silent scope say it the bonus should applie
• When you stealth sometime the stealth attack launch him self for no reason, with the rifle it's end by an unwanted reavel...
• In some configuration longbow ranger seems to bypass the new #4 on rifle (or maybe ranger have some skill/trait to make projectile unblockable that i don't know)

Ranger has a lot of unblockable attack access now due to FB and mirage being unkillable with longbow otherwise. Depending on the build, it usually hovers between 6 to 12s.

[Gatvin.6510]

So I played a lot of Deadeye this weekend to assess the strengths and weaknesses. It was certainly improved over previous versions in terms of needing to do things to get mileage out of the spec, Deadeye vs. Deadeye is particularly interesting now, but all in all its still got some major issues.

First, Malice is more complicated now. A LOT more complicated. Not necessarily bad, but if it was passively unintuitive before, now it is ACTIVELY unintuitive. For the thief, stealth is a defensive ability used to escape combat and then restart a burst combo on the opponent. Malice works against that flow now by eating the burst mechanic the first time you pop into stealth and pop out with an autoattack. Your other option is to forego the burst of damage you gain from using a stealth attack and instead using an initiative-based skill to break out of stealth. this is ESPECIALLY unintuitive when one starts using the talent that grants you stealth when "stealing" (marking) the target. Your opponent is aware of you as soon as you throw the red dot on them. Now instead of bursting them down you need to not just attack them, but specifically burn your initiative building up malice on them. If you do that and your opponent turns on the defensive cooldowns, you've wasted your initiative, gained no malice, and probably did no damage.

Next, the rifle still has most of the core issues it had before. No real aoe options, no zone control, and no good defensive abilities. When playing a ranged spec the question is always "how important is being ranged". If the answer is "important", the next question is, "how do I keep my opponent over there?" This is zone control for ranged specs. The first answer to this is "attack range". If I can attack from further than you can, I can be further away and still fight you. Deadeye has decent range, outranged only technically by arc'd projectiles and long-range aoes when it comes to direct attack skills. The second answer is "movement". If you can move faster than your opponent, you can keep them at range while they try to close the gap. This does not apply to deadeye. When using its maximum range, the deadeye just can't move. If the deadeye wants to move they drop to high-middling attack range. They DO have a teleport, and a decently powerful one too, but its hard to aim, and is inconsistent with some terrain features, costs so much initiative that it cripples them offensively, and often puts them out of attack range. The last way to maintain distance is by using persistent attacks. Pets, illusions, traps, and conditions, and just plain-old fire-and-forget aoe. All of these(especially pets) allow a player to massively increase their effective attack range, and shape the flow of battle. Thief doesn't have access to good pets and for some reason their traps are massively inferior to even the necromancer's marks. Rifle alone has very little in the way of condition application. The closest is talenting for poison whenever your opponent is rooted, and that mostly feels like worse shortbow.

All in all we trade in good defensive and aoe abilities on other weapon sets for a range increase, a slight increase in damage over other class's weapon attacks. We also don't have any ability to maintain our range, or keep our opponent at bay or damage them while retreating. Honestly, its only worth bothering if you like a challenge, or really like the concept.

One last point about the rifle. Most other ranged weapons have a way to deal with reflects or projectile blockers by having an aoe attack of some sort. Heck, many spellcasters don't even care about reflection because their staves are loaded with long-range aoes. Rifle is completely shut down by them. A block or a bubble goes up and you've just got to switch weapons. Which is probably for the best, most weapons are easier to use.

Rifle Deadeye is a LOT of fun when it works, but unfortunately it only works for the opening or ending of a fight, and at a decently steep cost. Even then, once you're facing 2 or more opponents you'll need to switch to basically any other weapon set to be effective, and if you're opponent knows what they're doing, it probably would have been better to start with that set in the first place.

I don't think deadeye is a bad concept, but "interactive" and "sniper" ARE mutually opposed concepts. It will be tough to get them to work well together, but right now rifle is barely functional. I LOVE the tradeoff on kneel, but due to lack of other strengths, there's almost no right time to do it except right at the start of the fight, and Malice muddles a lot of that. I DON'T know if these will work, but potshots at some ways to smooth things out a bit:-Increase attack range to compensate for the lack of pets/ illusions. Like base 1500 at least/1800-2000 when kneeling-Give the rifle an aoe attack-Make Thief traps better

[Bunny.9834]

@"Gatvin.6510" said:

I don't think deadeye is a bad concept, but "interactive" and "sniper" ARE mutually opposed concepts. It will be tough to get them to work well together, but right now rifle is barely functional. I LOVE the tradeoff on kneel, but due to lack of other strengths, there's almost no right time to do it except right at the start of the fight, and Malice muddles a lot of that. I DON'T know if these will work, but potshots at some ways to smooth things out a bit:-Increase attack range to compensate for the lack of pets/ illusions. Like base 1500 at least/1800-2000 when kneeling-Give the rifle an aoe attack-Make Thief traps better

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/40822/more-crazy-ideas-for-deadeye-rework#latest

[Scud.5067]

@Gatvin.6510 said:Now instead of bursting them down you need to not just attack them, but specifically burn your initiative building up malice on them. If you do that and your opponent turns on the defensive cooldowns, you've wasted your initiative, gained no malice, and probably did no damage.

Good post, interesting read - thank you.

Just on this: I played DE for a short while before the change, so now my experience is becoming mostly with post-change DE. With this is in mind, I've found that the current rifle-focused DE works very well as a skirmish brawler, where as you say, you have to attack then DJ as a finisher/pressure. This also lends itself to more resilient setups means DJ is dodged less, if at all, since the focus of play (or at least mine) is to force them to dodge before hitting them with a DJ. And if they don't dodge, then they're taking a chunk of everything else. And if that super-critical DJ was dodged? Chances are too much was riding on it - but good thing there's many a way to gain stealth to unleash another.

Side note: This also ties in with my experience play a sharpshooter in another FPS game (with platoons of players) - the role was about pressuring key targets from range for the finish, rather than bursting as quickly as possible. While the latter could be done, such players were typically relegated to lone wolf status and their kills factored little in the 'ole grand scheme of things.

[Gatvin.6510]

It feels wierd, but I think its maybe correct to mostly ignore malice and just fire off DJ whenever you get the window for it ( in terms of having enough stealth abilities off cd that you'll have one to disengage if you need).

Its a fair point that Rifle can be, in its own way, good zone control by putting on pressure. I wasn't thinking about that as much because its not directly rewarded, but it is definitely real, especially in pvp matches. My experience is (if they know how to fight) after one or two dodges are burned, they throw up anti missle defenses or just anti-damage defenses, and then you can't build any malice on them to get off a good DJ. They DO usually go down, but its not because I hit them, its because I burned their cooldowns and my team killed them. If they REALLY know what they're doing they just sit outside your attack range and punch your team. And while Rifle can pressure a single target, its important to remember that if you go Shortbow, you have great single AND multi target pressure.

For world vs. world this is particularly important for getting rewards/participation. You might take a couple of key scourges out of a 20-30 man zerg, but you'll only really get credit for two or three hard-earned kills, while the ranger, the dragonhunter, the scourge, the mesmer and the elementalist will be racking up kill credit just rolling their face on the keyboard.

[babazhook.6805]

It feels wierd, but I think its maybe correct to mostly ignore malice and just fire off DJ whenever you get the window for it ( in terms of having enough stealth abilities off cd that you'll have one to disengage if you need).

One reason I use RS in my build with Rifle is because DJ can benefit even when there no malice. DJ hits hard in its own right and very often you do not need the extra damage as something dead or near dead via regular attacks. DJ is still unblockable without malice as well so the way I look at it boon theft+unblockable+very decent attack for no ini after a dodge is well worth it. If you happen to have malice up it just better.

As to traps. Needle trap is premium. 5 poison 3 bleed and an Immob is significant in a Condition build and the lesser trap via respite even gets another poison stack. The only downside is the small area it covers.

Shadowtrap is also a very good trap WHEN it works. If they address the pathing issues with the port I would put this up there against any trap mark or well for effectivness and utility. It can be quite sweet pre-setting a shadowtrap then moving to range using rifle and porting in for a backstab when the enemy heads your way and trips it . I will use this a lot in WvW. I find it very useful in 1vX fights as well as an escape if things go bad. It just hard trying to ensure the port will work when it needs to work.

The larger issue with traps is just as with venoms there just not a lot of space to trait more then one. There too much other stuff (stealth/stunbreak cleanses) that are needed.

Tripwire and ambush need some work.

[Delweyn.1309]

sniper's cover : one of the most useless skill created. No one use it.

[Bunny.9834]

@Delweyn.1309 said:sniper's cover : one of the most useless skill created. No one use it.

Yup. I tried using it on WvW, it's so clunky. They tried putting it as some kind of combo field skill for Death's Retreat (stealth) and Projectile (blind) but sometime's it doesn't even work, like it's bugged.

[Turk.5460]

I wish they would give us Unforgiving back. It was extremely useful against mobile professions.

[friendofphoenix.6189]

I don't know if I am in the right place, if not hope some one can put this in the right spot.

I must say I never come down here to see ppl nag so much about change in gw2, but I really wanted to see for my self what ppl think about DE, seam ppl talk a lot about how sniper cover I think they call it, it a bad thing,I have played DE about a month after it came out and ever since, it pretty good, but about 90% useless most part but still great, and I like it very much, sad really how thing has change for worst for most ppl and a little bad for me, but for what I am here,

it seem they need to change how sniper cover work, @specialka.7290 had some thing going there with f3/f4/f5, but it seem likely that it not going to happen, but it some thing to think about, just a few though, why not throw sniper cover up to those f3/f4/f5, or some thing and add some new skill or some thing to the weapons skill it currently is now, but then we still have the problem that you can't run away or move from a AOE field, unless you press some thing again and so on,

but then I said to my self, why not just get rid of sniper cover in a small way, still there but not a motion problem, why not make it so that went you have a rifle on, and your not moving your character would automatically go in sniper cover, and went you start running or walking , you would be no longer in sniper cover, there plenty of space were they can put cool down anyway like there is now in place, for sniper cover or stealth trait thing that ppl seam to like very much, it would stop ppl from nagging that sniper cover is useless .some one may are ready of come up with this, but I don't spend my time here so sorry if it already bin toll, any way it just a though, may be some one can improve on the thing I have said, rather then nag some more.

I also think that deadeye is useless for most part in the game, since it had very little AOE skill at all, but if you take the AOE skill out of the equation, then deadeye is a great class to play and why I like it lot, unless lots of mobs come along then one would like to have staff on daredevil and just get rid of those fruit cake :D any how I hope ppl can come up with some thing better then me, or improve on the little I have said, and not the rest of the babble lol.good day/night folks and always have fun out there.

[Lucinellia.9247]

In a hope to keep this thread alive and to try to keep Anet's attention on the fact we need more work now than before the rework (and because I'm super irritating and want an off-meta viable support option for Deadeye in PvE), here's a response I made about support Deadeye to a thread on reddit. For what it is worth, we've had two changes impacting Thief in the the last month - a bug fix and the removal of permanent revealed on Deimos which, while a buff for Deadeye which was struggling on the boss, is an indirect nerf to power Daredevil which still does some of the worst damage out of the "meta" builds. At this stage, changes like this need to be compensated with baseline buffs to Thief builds.

Might in raids and instanced PvE beyond speed-run fractals (which most people are unlikely to be attempting) is provided by a Druid. As it stands, one Druid can easily cover a full 10 person raid with 25 Might continuously by losing a small amount of healing by running Grace of the Land over Lingering Light and using some Harrier gear - possibly with sigil of concentration. As the game stands currently, there really aren't any encounters which stress healing output and management so it any healing lost by running a Might share Druid is easily soaked up by the secondary healer which can now, in most cases, be a Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Renegade, Druid or Scrapper. This means a raid group doesn't have much of an opportunity cost to bring a Might share Druid.

Running Might share Deadeye does, however, carry a considerable penalty. Thief doesn't really have much utility but Deadeye is able to stand relatively well against most other DPS options so long as the fight favours power and doesn't have a large hitbox for Weaver to exploit. However, running Might share Deadeye is a difference of about 12k benchmark DPS and the rotational use of multiple cantrips to gain Stolen Skills, further reducing both the damage and utility of a Deadeye. Unlike healing, which can be mopped up easily by the secondary healing, there is no new magical source of DPS from the Deadeye running Might share.

Warrior illustrates this point well. Despite banners and spirits in their current unique passive state being a detriment to game balance and ensuring we've had a Chrono/ Druid / Warrior hegemony for the past three years, the numerical balancing of the different warrior builds is very good and should be a model on which support Deadeye balance is based.

A warrior loses about 4 - 6k DPS on a small hitbox by running banners. This is far, far less than the approximately 12k lost by Might share Deadeye. Since I hope Arenanet will be reworking the Deadeye rework, I'd propose making sure that Deadeye can hit about 34 - 35k DPS with a low cleave, single target rotation with either Be Quick or Be Killed or Maleficent Seven but doesn't pay such an opportunity cost to provide Might. Ideally, Might share Deadeye shouldn't have to run more than Deadeye 3 - 3 - 3 and a couple of cantrips to maintain full Might. This would necessitate a change for Fire for Effect which could be split for PvE only. A PvE Fire for Effect that applies 10 Might for 18 seconds on the use of a Stolen Skill would be ideal along with a support Deadeye bringing 30k benchmark dps.

This would allow Might and Fury share Deadeye to be viable in some off-meta compositions and would also further increase the relatively poor support diversity of GW2 PvE. With a Deadeye bringing full Might to a raid and not giving up so much DPS and utility, there would be the option to run compositions that do not include a Druid at all in both raids and fractals. I'd personally love to see how combinations like Deadeye, Tempest and Scourge would do in raids.

[Turk.5460]

Casting Sniper's Cover while a smoke line is already up seems to lose the projectile-block for a moment. A bit frustrating, though using that skill in general seems to be frustrating to many.

[Bunny.9834]

@Turk.5460 said:Casting Sniper's Cover while a smoke line is already up seems to lose the projectile-block for a moment. A bit frustrating, though using that skill in general seems to be frustrating to many.

I think it's broken. It doesn't seem to block projectiles. Also the field combos with it is bugged to.