An Eye on the Deadeye

[Kallist.5917]

Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

[Turk.5460]

@Kallist.5917 said:Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

So making the DE stronger forced you to quit? I don't get it.

[Zephyr.5382]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Kallist.5917" said:Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

So making the DE stronger forced you to quit? I don't get it.

I have to assume that by "stronger" you're referring to dynamic gameplay and/or fun factor--surely not DPS.

[kash.9213]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Zephyr.5382 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Kallist.5917" said:Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

So making the DE stronger forced you to quit? I don't get it.

I have to assume that by "stronger" you're referring to dynamic gameplay and/or fun factor--surely not DPS.

Oh you're talking about fighting stationary damage sponges where apparently your fun relies solely on how high your number on a chart is. Ok.

It's still not stronger now though. We had more and better options before with better results. About the damage, of course more damage is better than less damage. When is less damage better? How is less damage better for you? Potential damage does make a difference for builds even in non dps metered content, why be okay with restrictions or nerfs?

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Turk.5460 said:Oh you're talking about fighting stationary damage sponges where apparently your fun relies solely on how high your number on a chart is. Ok.

Here's another polite request for PvP / WvW players to get over the fact that some people like to play PvE content (in a game that is primarily built on PvE), where targets are certainly more than damage sponges and relative possible numbers on DPS rankings do impact the ability to even access that content.

We're in this post-Deadeye rework mess up situation together.

[Specialka.7290]

This game is not primarily built on Pve, Wow is. Gw2 is not.

[babazhook.6805]

@kash.9213 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Zephyr.5382 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Kallist.5917" said:Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

So making the DE stronger forced you to quit? I don't get it.

I have to assume that by "stronger" you're referring to dynamic gameplay and/or fun factor--surely not DPS.

Oh you're talking about fighting stationary damage sponges where apparently your fun relies solely on how high your number on a chart is. Ok.

It's still not stronger now though. We had more and better options before with better results. About the damage, of course more damage is better than less damage. When is less damage better? How is less damage better for you? Potential damage does make a difference for builds even in non dps metered content, why be okay with restrictions or nerfs?

To the raw numbers. Yes a DJ could hit harder old style, but if my target has only 16k hps and I got an unblockable from stealth while standing attack that costs no INI and is cast in 1/2 second while hitting for 17k, how is a 25k shot , blockable 3/4 second cast, usable only while kneeling and expending 6 ini to do so stronger?

The effectiveness of DE in WvW is greater IMO. You can freely expend INI and #2 and #3 and even #4 while both doing damage and building malice. This can be done at a much higher rate then prior , again as you to had to husband some INI. The ability to do this forces the enemy into utilizing more dodges as they simply can not ignore that incoming damage (Two round and three round hit hard in their own right) whereby that DJ now only does not have to deal with blocks , but the enemy now has used his dodges when you use it.

NONE of this applicable to the group interested only in DPS because they are fighting against a PVE Boss that has hundreds of thousands of Hitpoints. What needed there is much more limited and focuses primarily on DPS , thus all the "Golem tests" as proofs. This is apples and oranges when discusssing whether a build better then it was before or worse.

[Seis.4736]

Imo rifle DE in WvW is decent. Yes, it is not the best or even better in what it can do compared to other classes but it is not bad. You can engage with a dodge + steal, get nice chair, sit down and drink tea while giving your target a full load of hurt, before finally rolling back to stealth (prefer meld) to serve the main course (full stack DJ). it is a good combo but it really ties the deadeye to a static build with minimum if not no room for tweaks.

On the other hand, DE rifle in PvE is just weak. No other explanation but the wind up time for a big chunk of dps is just too long and bothersome compared to other classes. Daredevil staff is much better hence why you see them often in PvE. I personally swap to DD staff in pve and DE rifle in wvw.

Imo utilities are fine as they are. No need to add f3 f4 f5, but sniper's cover is really clunky. Wish they make it an aoe centered on the DE that blocks projectiles 360. Or if it is not too much to ask, combine sniper's cover with kneel when traited with silent scope so that whenever you kneel, you automatically block projectiles until you fire a shot/attack (makes sense being it called sniper's cover).

It would really be nice if atleast we get like a reply as well just assurance that they are still hearing us out about this rework

[Specialka.7290]

One of the issue I see in Wvw as a Rifle DE is the need for Mercy. If you tag your target, then that target just rolled away and flee inside her zerg, you are screwed. Mercy should be baseline as F3 ability. Dj should be F4 or F5, and maybe some others utility ability as F4.

[bq pd.2148]

@Specialka.7290 said:One of the issue I see in Wvw as a Rifle DE is the need for Mercy. If you tag your target, then that target just rolled away and flee inside her zerg, you are screwed. Mercy should be baseline as F3 ability. Dj should be F4 or F5, and maybe some others utility ability as F4.

if you want to put mercy as an F# skill you can aswell put it on F1 while you have a mark.

[Lucinellia.9247]

As mentioned above, some communication would be really appreciated at this stage. It's been over 5 weeks since the rework was pushed out and the state of Deadeye in PvE continues to be poor.

[Bunny.9834]

@"Miatela.5047" said:As mentioned above, some communication would be really appreciated at this stage. It's been over 5 weeks since the rework was pushed out and the state of Deadeye in PvE continues to be poor.

They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

[Turk.5460]

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:As mentioned above, some communication would be really appreciated at this stage. It's been over 5 weeks since the rework was pushed out and the state of Deadeye in PvE continues to be poor.

They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

Good! That's far more important than buffing the PvE aspect of one weapon of one profession that already has multiple viable PvE builds. Is anyone championing the DPS of Guardian's Mace? Or Ranger's Sword? How about Necro anything in PvE. There are many things that could use improvements in this game, and Deadeye Rifle DPS in literally the least-seen game content is rightfully at the bottom of their priorities. It's frustrating to see the entitlement shown in various threads demanding the attention of developers when there are far more constructive things the Devs are working on.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Specialka.7290 said:One of the issue I see in Wvw as a Rifle DE is the need for Mercy. If you tag your target, then that target just rolled away and flee inside her zerg, you are screwed. Mercy should be baseline as F3 ability. Dj should be F4 or F5, and maybe some others utility ability as F4.

if you want to put mercy as an F# skill you can aswell put it on F1 while you have a mark.

That would mess up the mark reset from swindler's equilibrium, and the lower mark cd from slight of hand. Would be better as an F3.

[Jack Redline.5379]

Hello. I would like to make a request for Anet. I have been doing my science on thieves. (Not that kind of science :) ) and i have figured out we could actually get way more out of the class only thing that would be neccesarry is changing traits for core theif. They are all good. But misplaced. Since we are allowed to only have three specializations we need to have the traits propperly placed so we can get the most of a certain build. The following traits are imo placed in wrong specializations and should be put to following trait lines

Trappers respite - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)Preassure striking - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

[Lucinellia.9247]

@DragonSlayer.1087They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

If the balance team is designed such that they need to do work on other content areas, then that is an issue that Anet needs to address because it clearly isn't working for the health of a game. We have bad redesigns and late content.

I'd respond to the post that spurred this response but I honestly don't have the energy to argue any more with people that only care for a PvP-centric view to the extent that they misrepresent PvE scenarios and balance and misrepresent instanced PvE as one of the least popular game modes (ATs and ranked sPvP would like a word) to try and score points. It is tiring. For anyone that still wants to try and argue the PvE Deadeye in this environment, good luck.

[kash.9213]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Hello. I would like to make a request for Anet. I have been doing my science on thieves. (Not that kind of science :) ) and i have figured out we could actually get way more out of the class only thing that would be neccesarry is changing traits for core theif. They are all good. But misplaced. Since we are allowed to only have three specializations we need to have the traits propperly placed so we can get the most of a certain build. The following traits are imo placed in wrong specializations and should be put to following trait lines

Trappers respite - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)Preassure striking - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

Swindlers and Rending Shade both fit well where they're at right now. Putting both of those traits which are pretty awesome traits for those two different build styles into Critical Strikes is a waste for anyone who builds more towards utility than maintaining a damage threshold. If Crit Traits is your favorite trait line then I get it, but that still shouldn't happen.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@kash.9213 said:it isnt my favorite trait line i just know that if someone plays Critical strikes he aims for power build and that gives you currently these options = staff DD, rifle DE (not a good idea) s/d, s/p (both have main point of stealing boons with 3 and stealth attack mostly PVP i saw some in wvw too) p/p (retarded but working in PVE dungeons are paradise with this at least for me not gonna get you to raid or frac tho) and also d/d with DE (it is a nice build i saw it can do pretty dmg) these are those most viable as it comes down to dpsi dont know what do you mean by keeping utility. But I will explain my point why to put those two traits into Critical stikesRending shade is a useful skill which allows you to steal boons with stealth attacks. if you tho have this skill in shadow arts it forces you to pick a whole traitline which gives you basically no damage increase only stealth improvements Critical strikes on the other hand are comepletely dmg increase based trait line and that is why stripping boons with stealth attacks would be usefull mainly for DE builds = DE has elite which makes you go to stealth 2 and break revealed if you will have any weapon you could use this trait to stealth yourself steal boons from target thx to rending shades when attacking them (with D also backstabing them if possible which is extra dmg) AND DE dps is increased by 1% for each boon you have thx to Premeditation. We would be able to play De with melee weapons and rifle stealth attacks would finally be worth at least those 2boons we would rip.Hidden killer. AS i have mentioned Shadow arts are completely useless traitline. You are able to stealth yourself long enough even without it thx to shortbow + smoke field or something. That is why it needs improvement. If you are already using stealth it would be tactical to use traps (thus trappers respite) and stealth attacks from behind to increase dps. This would make shadow arts viable both for condi and power builds and we would actually have raeson to use traps which are completely despised by every thief so far. with power builds on the other hand hidden killer would give you abbility to deal actually some dmg from stealth which you are improving throughout all the traitlineALSO thief is DPS class and we currently are not even Meta which is kinda sad. that is why we need MORE DPS

[saerni.2584]

@Jack Redline.5379

Rending Shade is highly beneficial to condi builds because of resistance.

Your change also is not thematically accurate. Stealth Attack bonuses should be in a stealth focused traitline.

Also, you used the word “science” incorrectly. Science is a methodology for testing a hypothesis. You aren’t testing anything. You are proposing a change but it is based on what you think would be interesting. That’s fine, but it’s not science.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@DragonSlayer.1087They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

If the balance team is designed such that they need to do work on other content areas, then that is an issue that Anet needs to address because it clearly isn't working for the health of a game. We have bad redesigns

and

late content.

I'd respond to the post that spurred this response but I honestly don't have the energy to argue any more with people that only care for a PvP-centric view to the extent that they misrepresent PvE scenarios and balance and misrepresent instanced PvE as one of the least popular game modes (ATs and ranked sPvP would like a word) to try and score points. It is tiring. For anyone that still wants to try and argue the PvE Deadeye in this environment, good luck.

I agree with you. That is the main reason I don't bother with said poster because that person can only see the PvP/WvW centric view while thinking the PvE for it is meaningless. No point in arguing with people like that because they won't listen to reason. It's best to ignore them and continue on with your day.

With that out of the way, I don't give two flying carpets if all their focus is on the new living world. They messed up rifle dps bad with these changes, so I expect them to at least put the dps back where it was before they decided to change the spec for no reason. Dropping 6k-7k basically screwed over any rifle pve player, but all their silence on it means one thing. They don't care anymore, so I hope they jack up the damage and fun for rifle in PvP/WvW now making every rifle player on an even playing field of uselessness. Yes, I am that bitter and angry at them for this for DE rifle change.

[Seis.4736]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@DragonSlayer.1087They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

If the balance team is designed such that they need to do work on other content areas, then that is an issue that Anet needs to address because it clearly isn't working for the health of a game. We have bad redesigns

and

late content.

I'd respond to the post that spurred this response but I honestly don't have the energy to argue any more with people that only care for a PvP-centric view to the extent that they misrepresent PvE scenarios and balance and misrepresent instanced PvE as one of the least popular game modes (ATs and ranked sPvP would like a word) to try and score points. It is tiring. For anyone that still wants to try and argue the PvE Deadeye in this environment, good luck.

I was about to, popping my knuckles and all but i decided not to spew the hate train i had in mind lol

Anyways, anyone noticed the bug with lead attacks (from trickery) generating with the new DJ? New version doesnt consume initiative and yet generates 5 stacks. I think this is not intended and when fixed will nerf our opening burst again (i run shadow arts so i mostly open with a 1 malice DJ from stealth).

[Seis.4736]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Trappers respite - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)

Debatable. Stealth =/= power build. Ever seen a condi trapper thief?

Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)

Invigorating precision is in Critical strikes because it benefits from critical hits. It doesnt necessarily mean you have to run x/x weapon to get a critical hit.

Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

Again, debatable. Although Hidden Killer only procs from stealth, it is really leaning towards getting critical hits. (100% crit chance that lingers from stealth). Also, Rending shade boosts stealth attacks so imo it just fits Shadow arts.

[jenosmaverick.8694]

Been playing DE rifle/pp the past 2 weeks in wvw. It feels really weird and kinda ruins the gameplay of having to roll just to use DJ and pp cant even utilize full malice. For me as a new player if not for my love of gun classes i would have switch to an engineer or ranger. My friends who played the DE before really enjoyed it alot before but now feels it is nerfed bigtime.I hope they bring it back or atleast give it a buff lol. I wanna enjoy this class and I bought this game cause od this class. Still ok on open world. Haven't tried fractals or dungeons yet but wvw it's hard toc tell..anet ruined just the class.

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Robert Gee.9246 just in case you are still wanting feedback, here is some PvE (raiding) perspective with numbers. I'm cross-posting this but I think it is worth being in the main Deadeye thread.

In short, Deadeye can pull some respectable DPS that puts it in the upper echelons of rankings if it is played correctly though this continues to sacrifice much utility and does not afford Deadeye a niche. A small change to the scaling of Malicious Backstab, from 10% per Malice to 15%, would allow for Deadeye to shine as a low cleave, low utility, high single target (boss) damage spec.

Golem benchmarks for Deadeye are poor but in actual raids, immunity phases allow the stacking of Malice and the alignment of Assassin's Signet with 5 Malice Malicious Backstabs, Shadow Flare, remarking and then a final 3 Malice Malicious Backstab affords good DPS with a non-linear and relatively high-pressure rotation.

This results in situations such as;

• 24.5k Vale Guardian DPS
• 21.4k Samarog DPS
• 31k Keep Construct DPS
• 22.2k Slothasor DPS
• 29k Sabetha DPS

I've been able to reach similar heights (relative to other professions) on other bosses where Power is preferred but I think the above is enough to illustrate my point (and someone uploaded months of Dhuum / Dhuum CM wipes that I took part in so sifting through my logs is a pain). None of these logs were chased, no group compositions altered to benefit me and I did not run a full DPS build - Basilisk Venom was used in all circumstances. This damage could also be easily improved upon by a player better than myself that isn't fighting disabled hands which caused a few poorly timed Assassin's Signets into "front" stabs and similar issues.

The numbers obtained are fine (excluding our lack of utility), but they are certainly not by design due to needing to use immune / distant from boss / cleave scenarios to build additional Malice with Dancing Dagger and we still ignore all synergistic traits in Deadeye. Only passive buffs are taken.

However, the biggest underlying issue with Deadeye can be seen in the Xera rankings and in this Xera log (where I was ported once sub-50% - due to low number of logs this skews the possible single target on Xera downwards slightly since I've yet to have a run without being ported).

Despite hitting decent numbers for single target, the cleave that Deadeye offers on an encounter like this is non-existent. Despite this, there are professions that can deal more single target and more cleave damage.

Deadeye ranks third for single target damage but has massively lower cleave.

This creates a very easy "fix" for Deadeye to give it a decent identity in PvE with respect to DPS. So @Robert Gee.9246 if you are still looking for feedback; Deadeye should be top single target power DPS - it should not be Weaver or Spellbreaker or other professions that can cleave and AoE and support far better. While Rifle requires a vast amount more work to be viable in instanced PvE again, Dagger/Dagger needs only one change and this could be split to be PvE only -

• Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

The lack of Deadeye support in PvE could also be improved by a second change, in addition to the improvement to Malicious Backstab

• Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds

These are very minor changes, are only numerical alterations and could be split from PvP and WvW yet would allow for Deadeye to find a niche as high single target damage with low cleave and low utility while offering an off-meta Might share choice.

[jenosmaverick.8694]

^Well most are complaining here the DE with rifles can't do raids/fractals. DE must work with rifles on both pve/pvp or better change it specialization to daggers than rifles and just rename it.