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An Eye on the Deadeye


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@Robert Gee.9246 just in case you are still wanting feedback, here is some PvE (raiding) perspective with numbers. I'm cross-posting this but I think it is worth being in the main Deadeye thread.

In short, Deadeye can pull some respectable DPS that puts it in the upper echelons of rankings if it is played correctly though this continues to sacrifice much utility and does not afford Deadeye a niche. A small change to the scaling of Malicious Backstab, from 10% per Malice to 15%, would allow for Deadeye to shine as a low cleave, low utility, high single target (boss) damage spec.

Golem benchmarks for Deadeye are poor but in actual raids, immunity phases allow the stacking of Malice and the alignment of Assassin's Signet with 5 Malice Malicious Backstabs, Shadow Flare, remarking and then a final 3 Malice Malicious Backstab affords good DPS with a non-linear and relatively high-pressure rotation.

This results in situations such as;

I've been able to reach similar heights (relative to other professions) on other bosses where Power is preferred but I think the above is enough to illustrate my point (and someone uploaded months of Dhuum / Dhuum CM wipes that I took part in so sifting through my logs is a pain). None of these logs were chased, no group compositions altered to benefit me and I did not run a full DPS build - Basilisk Venom was used in all circumstances. This damage could also be easily improved upon by a player better than myself that isn't fighting disabled hands which caused a few poorly timed Assassin's Signets into "front" stabs and similar issues.

The numbers obtained are fine (excluding our lack of utility), but they are certainly not by design due to needing to use immune / distant from boss / cleave scenarios to build additional Malice with Dancing Dagger and we still ignore all synergistic traits in Deadeye. Only passive buffs are taken.

However, the biggest underlying issue with Deadeye can be seen in the Xera rankings and in this Xera log (where I was ported once sub-50% - due to low number of logs this skews the possible single target on Xera downwards slightly since I've yet to have a run without being ported).

Despite hitting decent numbers for single target, the cleave that Deadeye offers on an encounter like this is non-existent. Despite this, there are professions that can deal more single target and more cleave damage.

SfTzb1F.png

Deadeye ranks third for single target damage but has massively lower cleave.

This creates a very easy "fix" for Deadeye to give it a decent identity in PvE with respect to DPS. So @Robert Gee.9246 if you are still looking for feedback; Deadeye should be top single target power DPS - it should not be Weaver or Spellbreaker or other professions that can cleave and AoE and support far better. While Rifle requires a vast amount more work to be viable in instanced PvE again, Dagger/Dagger needs only one change and this could be split to be PvE only -

  • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

The lack of Deadeye support in PvE could also be improved by a second change, in addition to the improvement to Malicious Backstab

  • Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds

These are very minor changes, are only numerical alterations and could be split from PvP and WvW yet would allow for Deadeye to find a niche as high single target damage with low cleave and low utility while offering an off-meta Might share choice.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:A specialisation doesn't need to use its weapon in every game mode. I'd also prefer that Rifle was fixed but at this stage, with the lack of communication and updates, I think we want to push for the smallest changes that get us into a good place quickest.

Not a bad mindset tbh.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:

  • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:
  • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

Talking PvE...I think the idea was to make Deadeye the king of single-target DPS among the thief elites... Considering how little it brings to the table otherwise. Daredevil has mobility and reliable Cleave with staff, the latter is more important in PvE. You could argue that it already is, though...

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@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:
  • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

Talking PvE...I think the idea was to make Deadeye the king of single-target DPS among the thief elites... Considering how little it brings to the table otherwise. Daredevil has mobility and reliable Cleave with staff, the latter is more important in PvE. You could argue that it already is, though...

with staff yes but the dagger already wont deal as much damage in the hand of a daredevil, why increase the gap further? i mean its not like daredevil could cleave better with dagger, is it?

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:
  • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

Talking PvE...I think the idea was to make Deadeye the king of single-target DPS among the thief elites... Considering how little it brings to the table otherwise. Daredevil has mobility and reliable Cleave with staff, the latter is more important in PvE. You could argue that it already is, though...

with staff yes but the dagger already wont deal as much damage in the hand of a daredevil, why increase the gap further? i mean its not like daredevil could cleave better with dagger, is it?

I told you. I think the idea was to make Deadeye king of single-target DPS. That's what I think they were getting at. I could be wrong, it's just a guess.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:
  • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

Increasing the base damage runs the risk of removing the small amount of interplay that Malice stacking during particular phases currently has. Dagger/Dagger Thief has a (fair) reputation for being incredibly easy and I think just improving the base damage wouldn't reward finding situations where it isn't a DPS loss to stack some extra Malice with Dancing Dagger before going into the Assassin's Signet buffed Malicious Backstab combo I outlined previously. This keeps the moderately higher skill ceiling of Dagger/Dagger Deadeye intact while a base damage improvement would just enforce straight forward CnD Backstab spam I fear.

Core Thief is so far behind for Power damage that it needs far more to improve it but does hold the advantage of being better than Deadeye for condition damage and can also be played as a very off-meta boonshare option on two bosses. I'm also of the opinion that there is no harm in differentiation between the different elites including differences in weapons, how damage is accessed and how that damage goes out. With this in mind, if Deadeye is turned into a high single target damage spec, then Staff Daredevil needs only a few buffs to either auto attacks or Vault in order it for it be lower single target but higher cleave option. With Condition Daredevil currently in a decent spot, this would promote the use of different builds depending on the boss and group composition and that isn't a bad thing from my point of view.

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To add, Daredevil running a baseline buffed Backstab Dagger/Dagger build would have very similar total modifiers to a low Malice Malicious Backstab Deadeye but would intrinsically come with more cleave due to Bound and higher overall modifiers improving auto attack which Deadeye can't compete with. This could end up favouring Dagger/Dagger Daredevil in all situations which I think is less ideal for build variety.

I'd much rather see unique identities for Deadeye, Staff Daredevil and Condition Daredevil even if those identities are just different aspects of dealing damage. I don't think there is any harm in certain weapons, skills and damage patterns being notably better with particular builds in PvE and I feel that variety could actually make repeating content more interesting.

Finally, and as cruel as it is, my post was focused most on raiding. To access that content you need an expansion so have access to at least one elite spec. I think we're in a position where elite specs should be balanced and in a good spot long before considering core Thief. But I am mean and horrible so yeah.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:
  • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

Increasing the base damage runs the risk of removing the small amount of interplay that Malice stacking during particular phases currently has. Dagger/Dagger Thief has a (fair) reputation for being incredibly easy and I think just improving the base damage wouldn't reward finding situations where it isn't a DPS loss to stack some extra Malice with Dancing Dagger before going into the Assassin's Signet buffed Malicious Backstab combo I outlined previously. This keeps the moderately higher skill ceiling of Dagger/Dagger Deadeye intact while a base damage improvement would just enforce straight forward CnD Backstab spam I fear.

i dont mind thief being easy as long as the dps is soo low many raid groups wont consider taking one with them. i mean i dont raid much, but that litle raiding i do in the first 2 full clears i did i was allowed to run thief because it is my main and then was asked to play mesmer as thief damage is too low and well they wanted a premade mesmer. if deadeye is not by a good part top single target dps, considering basically no cleave then i dont see a reason for them being hard to play.because if you have a class that is doing okeish damage and is super easy to play then you maybe would prefer a pug playing that as you can expect them to reach those numbers. but if the class is just doing moderate damage and is harder to play, then you do not want a pug on it.thats why i would have prefered them improving rifle dps for deadeye as just the fact that you are kneeling and only single target makes it alot harder to play no matter the rotation so they could have given this weapon highest single target DPS, but they didnt..

@"Miatela.5047" said:To add, Daredevil running a baseline buffed Backstab Dagger/Dagger build would have very similar total modifiers to a low Malice Malicious Backstab Deadeye but would intrinsically come with more cleave due to Bound and higher overall modifiers improving auto attack which Deadeye can't compete with. This could end up favouring Dagger/Dagger Daredevil in all situations which I think is less ideal for build variety.

deadeye can have higher modifiers for dagger. daredevil get havoc master 7% + bound 10%. deadeye gets iron sight10% + 1% per boon wich can be more then 7% also you dont need to dodge to keep up the modifier, you dont have to do anything just mark your target for your modifier uptime. so its better for build variety if a weapon is on one elite spec barely usable and trash on the other/core then if it was usable for ~same dps on two elites?I'd much rather see unique identities for Deadeye, Staff Daredevil and Condition Daredevil even if those identities are just different aspects of dealing damage. I don't think there is any harm in certain weapons, skills and damage patterns being notably better with particular builds in PvE and I feel that variety could actually make repeating content more interesting.

staff is a daredevil weapon if you want to buff a clear identity for daredevil, buff staff. rifle is a deadeye weapon, if you want to buff clear identity of the deadeye then buff rifle.you tho want to buff a core thief weapon for only 1 elite spec. dagger dagger power is not a deadeye identity. sure it performs best on deadeye atm, thats no reason to increase the efficiency for only this elite spec, cause its simply not a deadeye only weapon and there is no need for it to be so much worse on core/daredevil.
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@"Miatela.5047" said:A specialisation doesn't need to use its weapon in every game mode. I'd also prefer that Rifle was fixed but at this stage, with the lack of communication and updates, I think we want to push for the smallest changes that get us into a good place quickest.

Still it is DE's bread butter. Your request would rather suit to buff core thief. Buff rifle and skills related to it and that's it. They could improve it to be atleast servicable or average for pve not utterly useless.

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@"MUDse.7623" said:i dont mind thief being easy as long as the dps is soo low many raid groups wont consider taking one with them. i mean i dont raid much, but that litle raiding i do in the first 2 full clears i did i was allowed to run thief because it is my main and then was asked to play mesmer as thief damage is too low and well they wanted a premade mesmer. if deadeye is not by a good part top single target dps, considering basically no cleave then i dont see a reason for them being hard to play.

I've been kicked from multiple groups when trying to join as a Thief despite Voice in the Void and KP out of my ears. I have never been kicked from a group that has had me play Thief and can see what I do during fights. There is currently some stigma that you are up against when joining but if you are playing the class right then DPS shouldn't be an issue - I tried to show that with the logs I posted and you are welcome to check out rankings on gw2raidar. Or put another way, Deadeye would be top single target on quite a few bosses if Weaver wasn't overpowered on every boss. Deadeye performs better in a lot of cases than Holosmith and Spellbreaker and in pretty much every scenario is above Guardian builds.

If someone is asking you to switch to Mesmer then it sounds like you were playing Condition Daredevil? There are few bosses where you would be playing a power build and then be asked to switch to Mirage. Mirage is currently broken due to Confusion but that is another discussion for a different place.

because if you have a class that is doing okeish damage and is super easy to play then you maybe would prefer a pug playing that as you can expect them to reach those numbers. but if the class is just doing moderate damage and is harder to play, then you do not want a pug on it.

Please look at the statistics on gw2raidar. Power Deadeye has a reasonably high damage ceiling (check the gw2raidar rankings - they don't show my 100th percentile logs either so Slothasor is up to 22.2k DPS, Samarog 21.4k, Sabetha 29k and so on) when it is played well. It also has a much more forgiveable simple rotation. It is possible to pull 28.1k benchmark DPS simply by Marking, autoing and using Backstab. No Malice stacking, no active Assassin's Signet, no Spider Venom, no Thieves Guild, no Shadow Flare. No timing of abilities. No overlapping CDs. Correspondingly, 50th percentile Deadeye DPS is again high in the rankings of different professions. You could absolutely take a pug Deadeye (or Condi Daredevil as appropriate) but chances are they are not going to be an experienced player since those people moved to other classes before figuring out the changes.

thats why i would have prefered them improving rifle dps for deadeye as just the fact that you are kneeling and only single target makes it alot harder to play no matter the rotation so they could have given this weapon highest single target DPS, but they didnt..

Yeah, they didn't and the rework was messed up massively and so long as dodging is required to access Death's Judgment I doubt Rifle will be back in instanced PvE. Which is why I am advocating for two simple changes that would make Deadeye almost optimal on some bosses and another that would allow off-meta healing / Might compositions. Both are advantageous for the health of the game.

so its better for build variety if a weapon is on one elite spec barely usable and trash on the other/core then if it was usable for ~same dps on two elites?

Nope, and you've gone for a bit of a stretch to reach that conclusion. I suggested that Staff deserves buffs on Power Daredevil, dagger/dagger is already used on Condition Daredevil so a different aspect of Dagger/Dagger being used on Deadeye is absolutely fine in my opinion. Your solution is worse for diversity - it could result in dagger/dagger being the superior weapon set for Power Daredevil, Condition Daredevil, Power Deadeye as well as niche specs. That isn't a good situation.

staff is a daredevil weapon if you want to buff a clear identity for daredevil, buff staff. rifle is a deadeye weapon, if you want to buff clear identity of the deadeye then buff rifle.you tho want to buff a core thief weapon for only 1 elite spec. dagger dagger power is not a deadeye identity. sure it performs best on deadeye atm, thats no reason to increase the efficiency for only this elite spec, cause its simply not a deadeye only weapon and there is no need for it to be so much worse on core/daredevil.

No, it isn't a "Deadeye" weapon - that thinking doesn't work in PvE and hasn't for sometime; Weaver uses Staff, Holosmith uses Rifle, Soulbeast uses Shortbow, Guardian uses Greatsword and so on. However, Marking to allow for Malice stacking, Malice scaling and Malicious attacks are all Deadeye mechanics - which is what I was proposing to be improved.

I agree that Staff should be buffed and something should be done about Core Thief, but we're getting off tangent here.

And to avoid this turning into a big quote-off which is boring and tiresome to reply to, just throw any points down as statements and I'll be happy to discuss ^_^.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:And to avoid this turning into a big quote-off which is boring and tiresome to reply to, just throw any points down as statements and I'll be happy to discuss ^_^.wow should have read this last one before making a long quotelist..the not so important points aside, i simply do not fully understand why you want an improvement that is tied to both deadeye and dagger/dagger and not to only one of those. because dagger dagger is as a core weapon set used by different builds aswell and deadeye might aswell choose other weapons, by tying it to both you limit the builds that would profit from this buff. for example you could aswell ask for iron sight to be 20 or 25% damage increase in PvE ( not exactly sure how much more overall damage you aim at) this would buff deadeye damage towards their target no matter how they play and therefor leave room for a little more variety.i understand that improving only dagger you fear staff would be too weak an option on daredevil, that means then staff needs a little more buff i guess if that is the case. but still not a reason to restrict a dps increase to both a weapon and an elite choice.

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Actually, I'd rather Anet did a full rework and got Rifle back into a better position, reviewed Malicious skills (for example Pistol mainhand is in a strange spot) and considered Stealth access and how that impacts usability of these skills and, as a result, PvP and PvE viability. At the same time, I'd hope for Daredevil to be given the buffs that it lacked during raid-wide DPS nerfs (Grace of the Land, food, Spirits) and a second parse done on Stolen Skills to allow Core Thief Explode Plasma support to be viable on more bosses.

However, I am not hopeful of that happening any time soon which is why I'm trying to go for the low hanging fruit needed to sort Deadeye in PvE and afford it a proper niche (since Condition Daredevil is already okay). Improving Malicious Backstab's Malice modifiers and Fire for Effect are small changes that can be split from PvP/WvW but have a large positive impact on PvE beyond one class. That the changes needed are small hopefully means they come quickly and that Staff Daredevil's weaknesses can be addressed too.

The issue with a straight buff to Backstab is that it could wipe out the little diversity that we have in PvE by resulting in every build being Dagger/Dagger while a straightforward buff to, for example, Iron Sight (though also baseline Backstab) diminishes the already slim difference between a lazy Deadeye and one that plays well with Initiative / Malice juggling, cooldown aligning and good positioning.

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One thing I think I haven't seen mentioned and that irks me a lot is how standing rifle is just meant to be a bad kneeled rifle. I kind of understand that it "can't be as powerful since there's no trade-off" (even if there are lots of more powerful builds with less conditioning disadvantages), but it could have some purpose.

But it doesn't. In a pvp/wvw scenario where you play "snipping", if an enemy reaches melee range you're either going to change weapons (and therefore remove kneel) or cancel kneel, disappear by using stealth and reposition yourself. In a pve scenario, when rifle was somewhat viable, you didn't use it either because it lowered your dps too much, it was preferable to change to daggers.

So basically, standing rifle are filler skills not meant to be used ever since they hold no purpose as they're just weaker versions of kneeling skills. Something should be done to give them purpose. They don't even need to be skills centered around power damage. Utility packed skills, support oriented skills centered around debuffs...

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@"Akeno.4962" said:One thing I think I haven't seen mentioned and that irks me a lot is how standing rifle is just meant to be a bad kneeled rifle. I kind of understand that it "can't be as powerful since there's no trade-off" (even if there are lots of more powerful builds with less conditioning disadvantages), but it could have some purpose.

But it doesn't. In a pvp/wvw scenario where you play "snipping", if an enemy reaches melee range you're either going to change weapons (and therefore remove kneel) or cancel kneel, disappear by using stealth and reposition yourself. In a pve scenario, when rifle was somewhat viable, you didn't use it either because it lowered your dps too much, it was preferable to change to daggers.

So basically, standing rifle are filler skills not meant to be used ever since they hold no purpose as they're just weaker versions of kneeling skills. Something should be done to give them purpose. They don't even need to be skills centered around power damage. Utility packed skills, support oriented skills centered around debuffs...

well i like skirmishers shot to build up malice as it is faster then all the other rifle options.the question here is if standing skills are too much like kneeling skills or kneeling ones to much like standing? because staning offers good options to kite while keeping pressure. kneeling has a hard time to keep the distance and it has as stronger damage skill TRB wich is not really sniperlike to spamm shots, i mean you would expect single big hitting projectiles instead.

@"Miatela.5047" said:while a straightforward buff to, for example, Iron Sight (though also baseline Backstab) diminishes the already slim difference between a lazy Deadeye and one that plays well with Initiative / Malice juggling, cooldown aligning and good positioning.as we wont get back our malice based damage modifier i assume, thats the only option to buff deadeye single target damage without pushing them more into using dagger dagger. you would be rewarded for positioning and initative/malice juggling by the same % you do now. buffing iron sight would profit deadeyes of any skill level the same it doesnt diminish anything, so i dont really see your issue with it :3

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I would like to see a percentage damage increase per malice come back, although maybe only 1% or 1.5% (on top of the current buff from Iron Sights). That would give us back some PvE damage along with addressing that whole thing where sets that don't have easy stealth access or bad malicious stealth attacks are locked out of interacting with the malice system.

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@MUDse.7623 said:as we wont get back our malice based damage modifier i assume, thats the only option to buff deadeye single target damage without pushing them more into using dagger dagger. you would be rewarded for positioning and initative/malice juggling by the same % you do now. buffing iron sight would profit deadeyes of any skill level the same it doesnt diminish anything, so i dont really see your issue with it :3

The low-end of Deadeye skill already rewards disproportionate DPS against the low-end of other professions.

Suppose we go with a straight Iron Sights buff - it would need to be close to an additional 20% to get Rifle (or other weapon sets) anywhere close to being okay DPS but that would push Dagger/Dagger far above what it can do currently resulting in it being high single target and decent cleave. We've seen how unhealthy that is for the game with Weaver which is why I'd rather propose that Deadeye finds a niche as high single target and low cleave. The other issue is that whatever buff is given to Iron Sight to fix Rifle applies to Dagger/Dagger auto too. Dagger/Dagger auto with Mark only is similar DPS to Rifle currently so if the two end up the same, why take Rifle and a more complex rotation especially when you lose dodges and movement to deal that DPS?

A flat buff to Iron Sight ingrains Dagger/Dagger further but does so by encouraging poor play that has the opportunity to ignore all additional Deadeye mechanics beyond refreshing Mark. With what I am proposing, you at least need a modicum of active play to deal good DPS. I don't think this is a bad thing. Of course, I'd ideally want improvements to Malicious Backstab coupled with improvements to Malice scaling of Death's Judgment and a review of the damage of Three Round Burst but Rifle requires a lot more attention before it is in a good place due to how cumbersome the rotation is.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:

@MUDse.7623 said:as we wont get back our malice based damage modifier i assume, thats the only option to buff deadeye single target damage without pushing them more into using dagger dagger. you would be rewarded for positioning and initative/malice juggling by the same % you do now. buffing iron sight would profit deadeyes of any skill level the same it doesnt diminish anything, so i dont really see your issue with it :3

The low-end of Deadeye skill already rewards disproportionate DPS against the low-end of other professions.

Suppose we go with a straight Iron Sights buff - it would need to be close to an additional 20% to get Rifle (or other weapon sets) anywhere close to being okay DPS but that would push Dagger/Dagger far above what it can do currently resulting in it being high single target
and
decent cleave. We've seen how unhealthy that is for the game with Weaver which is why I'd rather propose that Deadeye finds a niche as high single target and low cleave. The other issue is that whatever buff is given to Iron Sight to fix Rifle applies to Dagger/Dagger auto too. Dagger/Dagger auto with Mark only is similar DPS to Rifle currently so if the two end up the same, why take Rifle and a more complex rotation especially when you lose dodges and movement to deal that DPS?

A flat buff to Iron Sight ingrains Dagger/Dagger further but does so by encouraging poor play that has the opportunity to ignore all additional Deadeye mechanics beyond refreshing Mark. With what I am proposing, you at least need a modicum of active play to deal good DPS. I don't think this is a bad thing. Of course, I'd ideally want improvements to Malicious Backstab coupled with improvements to Malice scaling of Death's Judgment and a review of the damage of Three Round Burst but Rifle requires a lot more attention before it is in a good place due to how cumbersome the rotation is.

ok first of all i didnt say buff iron sight to a level rifle gets relevant. its just if you buff only daggers then to get rifles up you need to buff only rifle by alot later because you would now increase the gap between dagger and rifle.iron sight only increases damage against marked target, how is that improving your cleave damage?so you want a buff to deadeye that you only can utilize in a specific type of play and only when managing your resources properly so that you get buffed and the deadeyes that in your eyes that dont deserve it remain at their current power, so that you still get kicked right away out of groups, cool.if you now deal 20% more damage then a bad deadeye, then after an ironsight buff you would still deal 20% more damage then a bad deadeye.you gave reasons why deadeye needs more damage. but why are you so dead set on your skill being rewarded more, or bad deadeyes being punished more?a bad deadeye might have good single target dps compared to other classes when they are played bad, but brings absolutly nothing else. no support and no cleave so thats pretty fair IMO. why does a buff encourge you to play even worse? thats just if the buff is not needed and you already are doing well then you can ease your rotation for the same results after a buff..

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True, I hadn't considered that it was a buff for single target only - apologies! That's what I get for posting early in the morning! And I know you didn't say buff Iron Sight - that is what "Suppose we go with" represents.

so you want a buff to deadeye that you only can utilize in a specific type of play and only when managing your resources properly so that you get buffed and the deadeyes that in your eyes that dont deserve it remain at their current power, so that you still get kicked right away out of groups, cool.

Yes - because people can learn to play a profession? It isn't asking much that people who actively play should do better? That DPS should be accessed by knowing what to do? That's a matter of preference - if you want to make changes that raise the skill floor to a point where you can get by spamming auto, fine, but it isn't one I agree with especially when Deadeye can do decent damage already without much input. Again, check gw2raidar and compare 50th percentile performances.

Anyway, we're getting down the route of setting up straw arguments which are needless when I make so many mistakes when I put ideas forward! :pensive:
To be clear, "so you want a buff to deadeye that you only can utilize in a specific type of play" is not true when I've already stated I'd like to see Rifle reworked to be viable and improvements to Staff Daredevil.

You are very welcome to your opinions but I don't think we're going to agree!

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@"Miatela.5047" said:You are very welcome to your opinions but I don't think we're going to agree!thats probably true :3

the issue is you want 2 things in 1 change :buff deadeye single target dps.increse the gap between good and bad deadeyes.

while i am fine with buffing deadeye single target damage with a minor change, if we want to increase the gap between good and bad thieves i think a greater rework is needed. i dont think skill would make such a difference with the change you want and mostly just limit it to daggers, but we need complexity to thief PvE rotatiosn to actually make skill matter. for this i think the ini system will need a rework so we need to use both weapon sets and have actually weaponskills in our rotation for their damage not utility to build malice or grant stealth.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:You are very welcome to your opinions but I don't think we're going to agree!thats probably true :3

the issue is you want 2 things in 1 change :buff deadeye single target dps.increse the gap between good and bad deadeyes.

while i am fine with buffing deadeye single target damage with a minor change, if we want to increase the gap between good and bad thieves i think a greater rework is needed. i dont think skill would make such a difference with the change you want and mostly just limit it to daggers, but we need complexity to thief PvE rotatiosn to actually make skill matter. for this i think the ini system will need a rework so we need to use both weapon sets and have actually weaponskills in our rotation for their damage not utility to build malice or grant stealth.

I've proposed multiple changes including modifiers on weapon swaps and procs but, in this forum, that gets shot down because "what about the PvP" even when suggesting it as skill splits. Similarly, making the skill floor too high while having a relatively low skill ceiling (base line passive buffs that push auto attack only) is a "what about my PvE" issue in exactly the same way - such changes are detrimental to the game mode. Just as you don't want a Deadeye easily one shotting people with no build up, trade off and counterplay, you don't want a profession that can excel in raid encounters by spamming 1 and pressing F1 every 25 seconds. It trivialises the content.

Deadeye is not hard to play in PvE. I've already shown that in my logs with the caveat those are by someone who does not have good or even average mechanical skill. There are some tricks that you can do with increased encounter knowledge to build extra Malice but that is no different from learning your match ups and opponents' animations in PvP. That rewards people with a better understanding of the game mode - PvE isn't any different in this respect.

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@"MUDse.7623" said:the question here is if standing skills are too much like kneeling skills or kneeling ones to much like standing? because staning offers good options to kite while keeping pressure. kneeling has a hard time to keep the distance and it has as stronger damage skill TRB wich is not really sniperlike to spamm shots, i mean you would expect single big hitting projectiles instead.

Personally, i don't find standing rifle exceptionally good at kiting, it simply adds "hitting at range" and "death retreat" to thief's already good kiting options, but standing rifle is no sword in terms of being in control of the space between the target and you or in terms of providing evades. But since pvp/wvw aren't my main game modes I guess i could be wrong.

My issue is the following: kneeled rifle deadeye isn't ever going to be a thing in high-level pve (it's based around bursting but weaver/dh/holo have better burst, you give up mobility for mediocre damage) and my feeling is that it is going to swing from extremely obnoxious to extremely disappointing in pvp/wvw/open world pve. But standing rifle could be a completely different thing, and it could make deadeye a more varied spec like firebrand or chronomancer are. You just need a F skill (thief in general severly lacks these skills) to choose which you'll use when changing weapon to rifle, or to change from one to another.

And regarding the current conversation about d/d deadeye in pve. It find the combo with assassin's signet uninteresting (basically another skill to use for another damage modifier to use with backstab, how original) and the build still has no depth: malice is never sought after (and therefore, you never achieve a full stack) because you can gain and spend malice without much afterthought. It still is a two skill + auto rotation. A flat increase in damage modifiers won't change that, it will give it acceptable dps but the gameplay will still feel boring. Only an increase in any of daggers damage/initiative cost ratio could make a change to a three skill + auto rotation. And I'm still not sure that would be fun to play.

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@Akeno.4962 said:It find the combo with assassin's signet uninteresting (basically another skill to use for another damage modifier to use with backstab, how original) and the build still has no depth: malice is never sought after (and therefore, you never achieve a full stack) because you can gain and spend malice without much afterthought.

For what it is worth, that isn't entirely true if you are trying to maximise DPS in PvE. There will be points in the vast majority of encounters where it is a damage increase to use Dancing Dagger to build Malice (Slothasor and Samarog immune phases, VG movements, KC orb collecting, Deimos before the debuff, Dhuum Death Marks to name a few). It then becomes a question of whether or not to hold Assassin's Signet and renewing Deadeye's Mark to build more Malice and aim for a higher modifier Backstab.

Deadeye has a very simple basic rotation but actually maximising the DPS is trickier due to how Assassin's Signet should be used in conjunction with other skills and Dancing Dagger for building Malice. DPS is already acceptable and some additional modifiers could push it to the strongest single target which would be nice.

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