An Eye on the Deadeye

[AegisFLCL.7623]

Thieves need a class wide stealth skill built into an F# skill. Certain weapon sets have poor access to stealth forcing all utility skills to be spent on stealth alone if you can even afford to do so with all the condi spam (PvP). For a class to revolve around stealth it shouldn't be shoe horned into taking stealth based utility skills on 2-3 slots to interact with a mechanic the class is supposed to be based around.

3-4 Second stealth on 30s CD on a new F# skill

[bq pd.2148]

@AegisFLCL.7623 said:Thieves need a class wide stealth skill built into an F# skill. Certain weapon sets have poor access to stealth forcing all utility skills to be spent on stealth alone if you can even afford to do so with all the condi spam (PvP). For a class to revolve around stealth it shouldn't be shoe horned into taking stealth based utility skills on 2-3 slots to interact with a mechanic the class is supposed to be based around.

3-4 Second stealth on 30s CD on a new F# skill

wouldnt help much unless got some special DE trait like reset CD of that F skill on successful hitting your marked target with your stealth skill. because for pve 30s is still way too much IMO.

[eldrjth.7384]

So with the stealth attacks im guessing you need to activate stealth after getting to full malice? Since you auto attack a lot and would use your stealth attack automatically chaining AA otherwise, losing the ability to accurately time it? The downside is theres really not that much built in access to stealth currently that would make using stealth attacks that frequent outside of offhand dagger/rifle unless there are new traits that assist in getting stealth. If the current DJ is any indication of the dmg output we can expect, then the other reworked stealth attacks need an extreme dmg boost. Also DJ can be used every 6s right now but you cant stealth that frequently, so I wonder where the extra dmg would come from to balance this out?

Losing the innate 3% dmg from malice is a concern if its not put back into traits somewhere. What if a build doesnt use any sneak attacks at all (i.e. has no stealth utils) would they do less dmg after rework? Id like it if there was a trait atleast that gave a dmg boost based on malice.

Mercy seems to suit classes that like to reserve malice rather than spend it, but maybe its simply a timing issue given how easy malice can be generated now, maxing out in 3-5 attacks. Also if you were condi based with low precision that might affect how quickly you can generate malice with the additional one generated on crit.

[Sojourner.4621]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@kash.9213 said:Are you guys trying to tank this elite to get ready for next expansion? I'm going to have to drop power for precision to kitten around with trying to land as many fire and forget hits as possible so that kitten up my kind of build and stealth setup players are going to have to play more like I currently do or they get no malice at all.

I don't want to be discouraged from using my Stealth skills. Now stealth skills consume and reset my malice stacks? As it is right now apart from some skills or traits being a bit jankey, a patch fix or two can smooth that out but most play styles can currently operate with Deadeye. This change would favor my build and play style, but it sounds like it would totally dismantle and shelve other playstyles and builds.

You're basically creating the same feedback loop of skill/initiative to trait modifiers that makes Staff daredevil/acro so fluid as a melee frontline build but with Malice and range because why?

Try reading the post, hello? Yes, they consume your malice but youa lso gain it WAY faster

Maybe, but what does that ultimately mean for DPS... old rotation was ofc auto-attack and then DJ as soon as you have initiative for it which is admittedly boring, yes. New DJ being a stealth attack means it won't cost init, and you'll have to spend init to boost its DPS by adding malice stacks, and it only did competitive DPS if it was getting the bonus from 7 stacks of malice... basically if it isn't casting a 7 stack DJ at the same speed as before, it will be a DPS loss period, unless some other things are getting major major reworks... that's not even mentioning cool-downs for entering stealth in the first place and we also don't know if DJ is a kneeling stealth attack only or if it's a standing one too... and if it's both what benefit does the kneel give? It wouldn't be the first time a rework gutted a class, and if not done VERY carefully this one (with limited information being released) might VERY likely do exactly that.

Any skill that spends initiative and deals strike damage to your mark will generate 1 malice.If that skill critical hits you will gain 1 additional malice.

These are two points from the OP... it's important to note they are not separate. You will not gain malice from auto-attack crits, only from crits that occur during skills that spend initiative. Not only will we have to build malice fast enough to get DJ off at the same rate, we'll have to do it on an initiative cost, so we'll need our init to regen at a rate that gets us the same DJ rate, or we will lose DPS. To get a full seven stacks you need 4 initiative spending attacks, they need to be cheap, they need to be fast, and they need to be able to fill init quickly or this spec WILL be dead in pve, completely. There won't be a viable build. It's already bottom of the barrel, and that will kill it.

[Crab Fear.1624]

I hope this isn't one of those "good intentions, bad judgement" moments...

[Elxdark.9702]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@kash.9213 said:Are you guys trying to tank this elite to get ready for next expansion? I'm going to have to drop power for precision to kitten around with trying to land as many fire and forget hits as possible so that kitten up my kind of build and stealth setup players are going to have to play more like I currently do or they get no malice at all.

I don't want to be discouraged from using my Stealth skills. Now stealth skills consume and reset my malice stacks? As it is right now apart from some skills or traits being a bit jankey, a patch fix or two can smooth that out but most play styles can currently operate with Deadeye. This change would favor my build and play style, but it sounds like it would totally dismantle and shelve other playstyles and builds.

You're basically creating the same feedback loop of skill/initiative to trait modifiers that makes Staff daredevil/acro so fluid as a melee frontline build but with Malice and range because why?

Try reading the post, hello? Yes, they consume your malice but youa lso gain it WAY faster

Maybe, but what does that ultimately mean for DPS... old rotation was ofc auto-attack and then DJ as soon as you have initiative for it which is admittedly boring, yes. New DJ being a stealth attack means it won't cost init, and you'll have to spend init to boost its DPS by adding malice stacks, and it only did competitive DPS if it was getting the bonus from 7 stacks of malice... basically if it isn't casting a 7 stack DJ at the same speed as before, it will be a DPS loss period, unless some other things are getting major major reworks... that's not even mentioning cool-downs for entering stealth in the first place and we also don't know if DJ is a kneeling stealth attack only or if it's a standing one too... and if it's both what benefit does the kneel give? It wouldn't be the first time a rework gutted a class, and if not done VERY carefully this one (with limited information being released) might VERY likely do exactly that.

Any skill that spends initiative and deals strike damage to your mark will generate 1 malice.If that skill critical hits you will gain 1 additional malice.

These are two points from the OP... it's important to note they are not separate. You will not gain malice from auto-attack crits, only from crits that occur during skills that spend initiative. Not only will we have to build malice fast enough to get DJ off at the same rate, we'll have to do it on an initiative cost, so we'll need our init to regen at a rate that gets us the same DJ rate, or we will lose DPS. To get a full seven stacks you need 4 initiative spending attacks, they need to be cheap, they need to be fast, and they need to be able to fill init quickly or this spec WILL be dead in pve, completely. There won't be a viable build. It's already bottom of the barrel, and that will kill it.

what? you're saying that I actually need to play the game now to get my burst and damage??? instead of waiting in stealth for 5 minutes while taking my coffee??? wow i quit.

[Sojourner.4621]

@Elxdark.9702 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@"kash.9213" said:Are you guys trying to tank this elite to get ready for next expansion? I'm going to have to drop power for precision to kitten around with trying to land as many fire and forget hits as possible so that kitten up my kind of build and stealth setup players are going to have to play more like I currently do or they get no malice at all.

I don't want to be discouraged from using my Stealth skills. Now stealth skills consume and reset my malice stacks? As it is right now apart from some skills or traits being a bit jankey, a patch fix or two can smooth that out but most play styles can currently operate with Deadeye. This change would favor my build and play style, but it sounds like it would totally dismantle and shelve other playstyles and builds.

You're basically creating the same feedback loop of skill/initiative to trait modifiers that makes Staff daredevil/acro so fluid as a melee frontline build but with Malice and range because why?

Try reading the post, hello? Yes, they consume your malice but youa lso gain it WAY faster

Maybe, but what does that ultimately mean for DPS... old rotation was ofc auto-attack and then DJ as soon as you have initiative for it which is admittedly boring, yes. New DJ being a stealth attack means it won't cost init, and you'll have to spend init to boost its DPS by adding malice stacks, and it only did competitive DPS if it was getting the bonus from 7 stacks of malice... basically if it isn't casting a 7 stack DJ at the same speed as before, it will be a DPS loss period, unless some other things are getting major major reworks... that's not even mentioning cool-downs for entering stealth in the first place and we also don't know if DJ is a kneeling stealth attack only or if it's a standing one too... and if it's both what benefit does the kneel give? It wouldn't be the first time a rework gutted a class, and if not done VERY carefully this one (with limited information being released) might VERY likely do exactly that.

Any skill that spends initiative and deals strike damage to your mark will generate 1 malice.If that skill critical hits you will gain 1 additional malice.

These are two points from the OP... it's important to note they are not separate. You will not gain malice from auto-attack crits, only from crits that occur during skills that spend initiative. Not only will we have to build malice fast enough to get DJ off at the same rate, we'll have to do it on an initiative cost, so we'll need our init to regen at a rate that gets us the same DJ rate, or we will lose DPS. To get a full seven stacks you need 4 initiative spending attacks, they need to be cheap, they need to be fast, and they need to be able to fill init quickly or this spec WILL be dead in pve, completely. There won't be a viable build. It's already bottom of the barrel, and that will kill it.

what? you're saying that I actually need to play the game now to get my burst and damage??? instead of waiting in stealth for 5 minutes while taking my coffee??? wow i quit.

I'm saying that, while this may be good for PvP and WvW... in fact it almost certainly is... it will likely destroy deadeye for PvE once and for all (it's already at the bottom of the DPS race charts with Daredevil). Are we back in the habit of sacrificing one game mode for another? Last I checked this was considered terrible design. It's especially egregious because the post makes a point of going "We finally got Deadeye DPS in an okay place so now we want to make the mechanics more interesting" directly before highlighting changes that will almost definitely make the DPS even worse that it was before the rifle damage increases.

[Leo G.4501]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:I hope this isn't one of those "good intentions, bad judgement" moments...

Good intentions, death's judgement?

But seriously, if you guys want to make this change, does it not work to make this malice-powered sneak attack style a trait to opt into? I'm sure someone can make such a style work with specific build conditions...but there's other builds that become obsolete if its mandatory.

[Almondjoy.8964]

@eldrjth.7384 said:So with the stealth attacks im guessing you need to activate stealth after getting to full malice? Since you auto attack a lot and would use your stealth attack automatically chaining AA otherwise, losing the ability to accurately time it? The downside is theres really not that much built in access to stealth currently that would make using stealth attacks that frequent outside of offhand dagger/rifle unless there are new traits that assist in getting stealth. If the current DJ is any indication of the dmg output we can expect, then the other reworked stealth attacks need an extreme dmg boost. Also DJ can be used every 6s right now but you cant stealth that frequently, so I wonder where the extra dmg would come from to balance this out?

Losing the innate 3% dmg from malice is a concern if its not put back into traits somewhere. What if a build doesnt use any sneak attacks at all (i.e. has no stealth utils) would they do less dmg after rework? Id like it if there was a trait atleast that gave a dmg boost based on malice.

Mercy seems to suit classes that like to reserve malice rather than spend it, but maybe its simply a timing issue given how easy malice can be generated now, maxing out in 3-5 attacks. Also if you were condi based with low precision that might affect how quickly you can generate malice with the additional one generated on crit.

This is my primary concern as a Deadeye who actually uses the rifle. Overall I like, or actually love the concept that they are going for with the rework but I feel there is gonna be a huge damage drop off if we don't get to keep using DJ at max malice. Even if we do get max faster spending to get it and getting stealth to use it in longer encounters like bosses is an issue. DE does have ample stealth options. Between the the elite skill (thats 2 because charges), Gust, the new kneel 4 I assume is gonna grant stealth via traits. But idk if we can up keep up the initive expenditure between using triple shot to get malice and new kneel 4 using initive to get stealth unless both DJ and kneel 4 dont use initive or just stack utility bar with stealth skills that all have 30 sec CD getting rid of any utility you can provide. Its a head scratcher, im almost willing to bet perfectionist is gonna refund some initiative thats the only way I see this working in a regular rotation without stealth stack. I am excited to hear them adding malice to work with stealth attacks opening other avenues for other weapon builds. Which is pretty cool. All in all, Im unfortunately more excited for other weapon builds rather than my ascended zerker rifle I just made... but we will see. This is all based off a post that was cleary hiding some info to not spoil the surprise, I can't wait!

[Guardian Summoner.5931]

@Will.9785 said:

@Comprissent.3856 said:So +180 Concentration and then deadeye gives no unique boons that chrono doesn't, so you need a chrono to give you boons to make this trait effective, but then you have no reason to have that concentration cuz chrono is just doing it all???? This is almost even worse

You aren't wrong. The boon duration is completely wasted in a group situation and next-to-worthless solo (12% is basically nothing).

You can run a boon share thief already, Trickery/acro/deadeye. you wont max your damage out but if boon share is something you want to do you can absolutely do it. Ive ran it a few times to fill in gaps.

[MudkipLover.3792]

Not sure how I feel about this. I don't mind that they're changing how you get malice, but I DON'T like how their changing malice overall. I for one love how we get increased damage with each stack of it, because for me, I can kill things a bit faster with the way it currently is. I don't mind them getting rid of CB, but if the utility skill that get its effect isn't unblockable, I'm gonna be pretty pissed. Also not liking the fact that malice is being used to power up stealth attack skills. I feel like they could have kept the increased damage per stack of malice, while still having it be used to power up stealth attacks. That way it would involve a bit of strategy in terms of when to remove the malice.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@Guardian Summoner.5931 said:

@Will.9785 said:

@Comprissent.3856 said:So +180 Concentration and then deadeye gives no unique boons that chrono doesn't, so you need a chrono to give you boons to make this trait effective, but then you have no reason to have that concentration cuz chrono is just doing it all???? This is almost even worse

You aren't wrong. The boon duration is completely wasted in a group situation and next-to-worthless solo (12% is basically nothing).

You can run a boon share thief already, Trickery/acro/deadeye. you wont max your damage out but if boon share is something you want to do you can absolutely do it. Ive ran it a few times to fill in gaps.

Acrobatics doesn't do anything for the people you're trying to share boons to, so I think it's better to go with Deadly Arts with Improvisation instead of Acrobatics if you want to run a boonshare thief. That single mark can turn into a 10 seconds of 1 might, vigor, fury and swiftness, and 16 stacks of might at 12 seconds, plus a double-cast of whatever you roll on your Stolen Skill. Run Mercy, and you'll double those numbers.

If you need boon-duration, could just use foods or Leadership runes instead.

[VixusIrine.9013]

Interesting changes although I'm somewhat worried about the changes to be honest. I'm probably in the very small minority here but I rather enjoy playing condi Deadeye. I do hope that the traits like Peripheral Vision and One in the Chambers aren't changed around in such a way that it makes condi deadeye unviable.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"MicROpart.7905" said:am I the only one think that this change is make deadeye alot useless now? the class called deadeye, using rifle as sniper rifle, whic the point is to "kill fast as posible, without drawing to much attention" now they change the malice to only generate if u hit them, whic taking much more more more time to kill.. dahell? better scrap the name "deadeye" and change it to something else like, "I'll poke u first so I can kill u", I'm sorry but i have to say this is ridiculous..

Not everyone wanted the Deadeye to be something that camped stealth. Permastealth + Nuke is unhealthy design and makes for horrendously boring gameplay for a majority of people.

We agree on this, and can’t be said enough! Great post!

Micropart is right though as well as MUDse, why are we calling this a Deadeye then and what are we trying to make this elite into? This proposed change sounds more like an old 80's action movie, spray shooting from the hip running at full speed to try to land as many crits as we can. As it is we can build our DE's for multiple play styles, that doesn't sound like the case post change. DE's look likely to be funneled into an optimal sequence, optimal weapon set, and likely traits unless there's more fleshed out details they haven't shared yet about how fluid stealthing with rifle, pistol, etc will be and how many build choices traits will allow to limit any favoring of one stealth attack over others and what kind of damage increases we can get.

and especially it would be nice to know if we do get options to gain malice aside from the 'hit your marked target with a skill that costs initative'. because that is the main reason that is going against stealth play on DE. you need resources to play with stealth be it in and out or camping, but having to use tons of ini to build malice through attacks - not repositioning / stealthing, will simply leave little room to utilize stealth and is pushing too much into a fixed playstyle.

I mean Skirmisher's Shot only costs 3 initiative and if you crit you get 2 per cast. Maxing default malice only requires 3 casts which is nearly just a BP+HS, or would only require 4 casts or 12 init for M7 maxed out which is the same as doing an aggressive BP+HS+SShot+Backstab.

Using this in conjunction with Meld for just one application of stealth for a stealth burst combo is basically the same as anything else.

The difference is just you have to apply some continuous pressure beforehand instead of just autokilling someone by eventually landing a DJ and using Meld as a free reset if you fail to land the combo the first two tries.

It really comes down to the full details of the changes, though. The concern about the goal being accomplished or not is absolutely valid, but the intent being there is a start. Frankly, I think if ANet really wanted feedback to make the best changes, they'd have asked for it and/or given us full details of what's changing to discuss more thoroughly than just a few notes as to what's happening for the sake of giving people a heads up.

Which is kind of a shame because I think that back-and-forth as far as discussion goes is necessary for a lot of things in the game right now, but I digress.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"MicROpart.7905" said:am I the only one think that this change is make deadeye alot useless now? the class called deadeye, using rifle as sniper rifle, whic the point is to "kill fast as posible, without drawing to much attention" now they change the malice to only generate if u hit them, whic taking much more more more time to kill.. dahell? better scrap the name "deadeye" and change it to something else like, "I'll poke u first so I can kill u", I'm sorry but i have to say this is ridiculous..

Not everyone wanted the Deadeye to be something that camped stealth. Permastealth + Nuke is unhealthy design and makes for horrendously boring gameplay for a majority of people.

We agree on this, and can’t be said enough! Great post!

Micropart is right though as well as MUDse, why are we calling this a Deadeye then and what are we trying to make this elite into? This proposed change sounds more like an old 80's action movie, spray shooting from the hip running at full speed to try to land as many crits as we can. As it is we can build our DE's for multiple play styles, that doesn't sound like the case post change. DE's look likely to be funneled into an optimal sequence, optimal weapon set, and likely traits unless there's more fleshed out details they haven't shared yet about how fluid stealthing with rifle, pistol, etc will be and how many build choices traits will allow to limit any favoring of one stealth attack over others and what kind of damage increases we can get.

and especially it would be nice to know if we do get options to gain malice aside from the 'hit your marked target with a skill that costs initative'. because that is the main reason that is going against stealth play on DE. you need resources to play with stealth be it in and out or camping, but having to use tons of ini to build malice through attacks - not repositioning / stealthing, will simply leave little room to utilize stealth and is pushing too much into a fixed playstyle.

I mean Skirmisher's Shot only costs 3 initiative and if you crit you get 2 per cast. Maxing default malice only requires 3 casts which is nearly just a BP+HS, or would only require 4 casts or 12 init for M7 maxed out which is the same as doing an aggressive BP+HS+SShot+Backstab.

BP+ HS if both hit so done in melee or with shadow step / infiltrators signet will give 4 malice not 5 and only if both crit. BP+HS +SS into backstab means your SS didnt hit the opponent again only 4 malice if BS+HS both hit and both crit.

Using this in conjunction with Meld for just one application of stealth for a stealth burst combo is basically the same as anything else.

trying to use meld in interrupt range will get interrupted by most half decent opponents. currently if i have to use it, i will do so on range or with shadow step unless i know my surrounding opponents are terrible. if i dont do that i pretty much ask to get killed.

The difference is just you have to apply some continuous pressure beforehand instead of just autokilling someone by eventually landing a DJ and using Meld as a free reset if you fail to land the combo the first two tries.

the problem is that you have to attack the mark with an ini costing skill. if you would get it for AA or even attacking someone else , then you still couldnt stealth camp but you wouldnt be forced throw all your ini on your target to get malice up.

It really comes down to the full details of the changes, though. The concern about the goal being accomplished or not is absolutely valid, but the intent being there is a start. Frankly, I think if ANet really wanted feedback to make the best changes, they'd have asked for it and/or given us full details of what's changing to discuss more thoroughly than just a few notes as to what's happening for the sake of giving people a heads up.

Which is kind of a shame because I think that back-and-forth as far as discussion goes is necessary for a lot of things in the game right now, but I digress.

that is correct. i fear they are going to miss their own goals with that change. mainly because of the malice build up or you can improve it by alot with traits.

they wanted malice to not be just passive ticking but they also removed another thing from malice, it didnt cost resources so far and i dont see how we get those back now. on top of being pushed to a specific playstyle because of malice. if you were already constantly attacking only your marked target, with mainly ini costing skills then you wont be affected much by that change. in fights were i wasnt forced to stealth camp i still did mainly attack with AA / CB and only sometimes skirmishers shot for cripple while mainly using ini for DR and short stealth for targetbreak + CB. with the new system it will take ages to fill up malice that way and i cant use stealth attack like before as it would reset malice. so before malice is up i will then break stealth with skirmishers shot to be able to AA again without losing malice. very few opponents will be able to tank all that damage that i would have to trow against them to even build malice up . skirmishers shot deals like 4-8k dmg and AA just a little lower, therefor i will rarely be able to use that malice at max stacks.remember: i didnt run trickery 3x skirmishers shot = 3/4 of my ini. i could use 3x skirmishers into slient scope (wich will be removed as well) and DJ and at this point be on 2-3 ini at most. then DJ would have to be alot faster with less tells, because you would be pretty much dead after failing to hit a skill with one of the biggest tells in game , when hitting DJ i dont expect it to hit against good opponents its just forcing evades. if i compare that with my mesmer, mesmer would still be easier to escape with then on a DE with 0 ini and mesmer burst is alot faster with not soo obvious tells as DJ.but who knows maybe i am just panicing and there will be traits who will give us the cheap stealth access needed to use the malice or the ini gain needed to build the malice.

[Raemyi.2968]

After giving it some thought, ultimately I think it comes down to this as far as PvE is concerned: Right now, on a boss target, Malice gives you a near-permanent 15% damage boost, and Death's Judgement is our most efficient initative-to-damage skill, to the point our rifle rotation revolves around spamming it as often as possible. One is being removed (what's even the point of malice for non-stealthy thieves now besides triggering quickness?), the other is being reduced in frequency.

That's a ton of DPS lost on a specialization whose primary (I'd go so far as to say only) role is to do damage. Now how are we making up for it? If the rework comes with, say, a base damage boost to our other rifle skills, or new traits that make up for the loss of Malice, then that's a-okay. New rotation, same comparable output overall. But as is, the OP did not say anything like that. Only news about the sources of damage we're losing. :'(

All these stealthy gimmicks aren't coming across as benefits, just obligations to tenuously hold on to what we already had going with a simple point-and-shoot.

[babazhook.6805]

Any reduction in overall damage done in isolation to the DE spec will risk making it unviable. The fact of the matter is contrary to claims made there a number of classes that can pump out 10k and more on single attacks , these other specs not having to worry about having only 11k health. Thief needs to be bursty and needs to hit very hard when it does hit because they that flimsy.

The risk that occurs when trying to build malice via INI type attacks is that the thief will not survive counter attacks long enough to get off that Malice enhanced shot. If Malice building type attacks are doing 5k and some soulbeast or warrior can hit that thief in turn for 10k , it game over for the thief before he even gets to that maximized malice.

Obviously a lot depends on what other changes made , but if there not enough utility and survival in the rest of the Rifle spec , along with an ability to make kills without having to rely on that sneak attack the "Build up Malice via INI expenditure so as to get the big attack in" will not work.

[lordhelmos.7623]

Whatever this new Deadeye will be, its not going to be a Deadeye.

To be honest, I didn't really think the one shot was that bad. DE has to sacrifice everything to pull it off and has 11k health. 2 Warrior autoattacks can kill a one shot rifle build... or one rapid fire from a ranger.

The Deadeye was intended to be a sniper by design. I don't understand what kind of sniper announced themselves with attacks first before they can build up enough opportunity for a killing shot. The entire rifle's kit was designed to stay hidden until you could get in the perfect attack.

To build 7 stacks of malice it took 20 seconds, which is actually much longer than other classes take to kill. A mesmer, warrior, or scourge can easily 0-100 someone in less than 2 seconds. Most bursts kill in under one.

This means you can die 20 times to another class before the DE has enough malice to kill you with rifle one shot. Also after 20 seconds of malice are used, the DE only had 10 seconds to attack you before the stacks dropped. I agree that it was clunky and hard to use, but players that practiced it were rewarded.

This new DE sounds like just another damage thief. With the new way Malice works, P/P is going to be even more horrible because the optimal build for the new setup is going to be unload ambush due to how malice stacks with crits. P/P is a build that is even more hated than one shot rifle.

The gameplay that really made Deadeye unique was stalk and kill. It was also easy to avoid because you just need to avoid that one single attack or just run when marked because its not like the DE could chase you.

My biggest problem with DE one shot was how easy it is to escape if you mess up. Shadowmeld was just a plain bad idea. If your going to be able to one shot someone there needs to be some massive penalties if you mess up. But then again, low risk gameplay has always been a problem with the thief.

This redesign just sounds like bad design. Its going to kill the unique gameplay mechanic of the DE. DE will no longer feel like a sniper, and the P/P cancer will only become worse with the new changes - leading to players hating DE even more than the one shot build.

I agree that SOMETHING needed to be done about DE, but this was not the right way to do it. This change will effectively kill the DE's identity.

[bq pd.2148]

@lordhelmos.7623 said:My biggest problem with DE one shot was how easy it is to escape if you mess up. Shadowmeld was just a plain bad idea. If your going to be able to one shot someone there needs to be some massive penalties if you mess up. But then again, low risk gameplay has always been a problem with the thief.

if you mess up, it is too late for shadow meld because if you try to use shadow meld while pressured you will most probably get interrupted or die.you are really messed up only if you get pressured while instant stealth (blinding powder) and shadow step are on cooldown. those 2 are the ones getting you out of every situation, shadow meld is only usefull in group fights were there is not much attention to you and with that you can reduce the reveal time to keep it like that.and most thief buiild rely on exactly those utilities to get out of bad situations , DD maybe uses bandits defense aswell and steal as it is also instant so a DD has alot more stuff that needs to be on CD to mess up then DE. but with range advantage in case of a rifle DE you dont get into bad situations as often as on DD.

aside from that agree with your post.

[keramatzmode.1906]

@"dragonkain.3984" said:Some COMMON SENSE things deadeye totally needs to stop being garbage in pvp:

**1. Remove ALL sound warnings to enemies, no other class screams into your eardrums like this supposedly-stealth based assassin, which is just ABSURD. No other class in game screams into your ears that he's about to kill you.

2. Make not-kneel-based rifle into an actually useful weapon, currently its absolute joke when you're not kneeling. Offer players an alternative playstyle with not-kneel based rifle deadeye.
3. Make kneel have 0 cast-time, it's absurd how much casting needs to be done only to start dealing damage to someone. Mark=cast time, kneel=cast time, all rifle attacks=cast time. It takes around 2 seconds only to start dealing ANY damage, by that time your target already ran a mile away when he noted a mark above his head.
4. Rangers longbow has 1750 range base (yes, 1750 is the real range and not 1500 as description states in case you didn't know), rifle deadeye has 1200/1500.... and rangers longbow doesnt require you to stand still, can burst up to 40k dmg every 30 seconds with no warnings whatsoever, yeah, 40k burst out of nowhere, pretty funny how bow rangers are so much more op than rifle sniper eh? To make deadeye less garbage buff range to 1750 both kneeling and not kneeling, it's a kitten rifle, rifles are supposed to have longer range than bows.
5. Retreat on rifle is useless in 80% of situations because terrain still makes it bug in almost all maps that have even a slightest elevation, making you NOT want to use it at all because you know that there's high chance that it will do NOTHING. To fix this just make it a short range targeted teleport, like mirages elite, 450 range anywhere mesmer clicks, it will be balanced because it costs initiative to use it while it costs nothing for mesmer. Mesmer can do it even while using other skills/attacks too.**

READ THIS POST DEVS.

you are my hero.

THANK YOU. READ IT DEVS.

[FreundHein.2739]

I have a strong feeling that it's not the best changes for PvE players.

[Almondjoy.8964]

@MudkipLover.3792 said:Not sure how I feel about this. I don't mind that they're changing how you get malice, but I DON'T like how their changing malice overall. I for one love how we get increased damage with each stack of it, because for me, I can kill things a bit faster with the way it currently is. I don't mind them getting rid of CB, but if the utility skill that get its effect isn't unblockable, I'm gonna be pretty pissed. Also not liking the fact that malice is being used to power up stealth attack skills. I feel like they could have kept the increased damage per stack of malice, while still having it be used to power up stealth attacks. That way it would involve a bit of strategy in terms of when to remove the malice.

They already confirmed that you will still be able to get the 3% damage per malice, just via traits. Cursed Bullet being gone sucks but im sure they have given us some traits that will help make this play style work. We cannot freak out over a post like this. We just gotta see what the update brings.

[Astyrah.4015]

hi this is my first post and i felt the need to chime in after reading the dev post.

i play deadeye and tempest (dps and support+dps respectively) but i try to main deadeye and am sad i can't take it to higher end pve content compared to my elem. while the balance changes would be a response to all the complaints about DJ snipers in WvW, i feel they should keep these new changes for WvW and PvP only if they must. For PvE, in my opinion, the class is already so simple and easy to understand there's no complexity at all in how to play deadeye in PvE and yet despite this we aren't loved in groups because not only do we not give supportive buffs to the party/squad but we also do not have the dps to make up for the loss of support so they'd rather take other classes for the dps role. i feel a straight up damage buff for PvE DE and DD should be done instead of these malice mechanic changes

@FreundHein.2739 said:I have a strong feeling that it's not the best changes for PvE players.

i feel the same way and feel like it will be clunky (stealthing in and out to DJ and then rebuilding your malice).

@keramatzmode.1906 said:

@"dragonkain.3984" said:

Some COMMON SENSE things deadeye totally needs to stop being garbage in pvp:

**1. Remove ALL sound warnings to enemies, no other class screams into your eardrums like this supposedly-stealth based assassin, which is just ABSURD. No other class in game screams into your ears that he's about to kill you.

2. Make not-kneel-based rifle into an actually useful weapon, currently its absolute joke when you're not kneeling. Offer players an alternative playstyle with not-kneel based rifle deadeye.
3. Make kneel have 0 cast-time, it's absurd how much casting needs to be done only to start dealing damage to someone. Mark=cast time, kneel=cast time, all rifle attacks=cast time. It takes around 2 seconds only to start dealing ANY damage, by that time your target already ran a mile away when he noted a mark above his head.
4. Rangers longbow has 1750 range base (yes, 1750 is the real range and not 1500 as description states in case you didn't know), rifle deadeye has 1200/1500.... and rangers longbow doesnt require you to stand still, can burst up to 40k dmg every 30 seconds with no warnings whatsoever, yeah, 40k burst out of nowhere, pretty funny how bow rangers are so much more op than rifle sniper eh? To make deadeye less garbage buff range to 1750 both kneeling and not kneeling, it's a kitten rifle, rifles are supposed to have longer range than bows.
5. Retreat on rifle is useless in 80% of situations because terrain still makes it bug in almost all maps that have even a slightest elevation, making you NOT want to use it at all because you know that there's high chance that it will do NOTHING. To fix this just make it a short range targeted teleport, like mirages elite, 450 range anywhere mesmer clicks, it will be balanced because it costs initiative to use it while it costs nothing for mesmer. Mesmer can do it even while using other skills/attacks too.**

READ THIS POST DEVS.

you are my hero.

THANK YOU. READ IT DEVS.

THIS. SO. MUCH.

though it is for pvp, i feel like some changes like the rifle range and alternatives to kneel rifle would be good for pve

[Akeno.4962]

@"FreundHein.2739" said:I have a strong feeling that it's not the best changes for PvE players.

DE's position in pve has always been feeble. In open world you can use one-trick-pony "be quick or be killed" or use rifle at max range. In raids, you either give up all movement with rifle for mediocre damage or you go back to backstab d/d for even less damage. Let's say that DE wasn't very thought-out for pve, and hope the rework comes with better solutions.

[sneakytails.5629]

I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.