An Eye on the Deadeye

[bq pd.2148]

@sneakytails.5629 said:I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.

what has shadow meld got to do with counters to deaths judgement? shadow meld counters reveal not deaths judgement. with new deaths judement sure reveal will be one aditional counter to avoid it being cast, but man you should be able to already avoid most of those oneshots. using shadow meld then to be able to cast DJ altho you revealed the DE before is same as using BV to shoot DJ thorugh reflect. both on elite slot so you got to choose wich counter for DJ you want to ignore, there are allways plenty others left, most importantly evading - works allways.

[Equinox.1463]

As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

As a PvP Deadeye (I'm just not high enough in Hero Points to get the profession yet in PvE), I feel like this update is a great thing. First, it will let us have more room for versatility, as I currently see two types of DE (with rifles): ones who ambush and ones who attack continuously. I have been called cheater before as an ambush DE, just to prove that ambushing is counter-productive if you look at it through the game's eyes. As I see this update, it will not only let us still be able to minimally ambush, but also gain more Stealth possibilities, increased survivability and more damage over time. I'm not a great Deadeye, I make a lot of mistakes (it's been two weeks I've been playing my PVP DE so), but as to my slight experience in the class, I believe it is for the best to let us still stealth, making DJ a stealth attack meaning we still get that sniper feel to ambush DEs.

Although I must say, this update also scares me a lot. I'm kind of contradicting myself. I feel like making us need to attack (which reveals us) to gain malice is more of a nerf to DEs than anything else. First, you have to spend ini to be able to gain malice. As a Perfect-7 (I forgot the trait name but it's the one that gives Perfectionist while hitting 7 stacks of Malice), I feel like I'll have to be unstealthed (decreasing my survivability in unranked PVP) to gain access to Malice. That is totally on the opposite side of what devs want to do, right? And I quote: "Finally, the Deadeye was already leaning towards being a stealth-based character due to its elite skill Shadow Meld and utility skill Shadow Gust, so we felt that having malice slot into the stealth attack was a natural fit." Yeah, we get that DJ stealth attack that will probably be very good, but to what price? Ambush DEs are great at that: ambushing, waiting, killing. So removing that ambushing part because you need to stack malice... it makes me uneasy, but I won't pass a judgment until I see our new rifle skills, our new traits, and our new utilities.

Well, I feel like this update was much needed anyways, in a gameplay term. Ambush DEs specifically were running a lot (I must say, waiting is my specialty, so making my strategy all changed... salty and bitter in taste, but it may be for the best) on... well waiting and making a lot of damage on single targets, which meant we didn't have the mechanics of DE into ourselves: SR-Kneel-Kneel, SB#5 to move, Signet of Power+F1+(that skill that imobilizes the target for a few seconds if marked)+DJ and the target was dead, which meant that it was a plain, boring and totally unproductive way to win fights XD

I don't know if the update is a nerf or an upgrade yet, and I hope it won't nerf DEs to be "Oh, Deadeye there, let's focus him, it can't solo us anyways" type of update. But I also see some new strategies being created, and a bit of flexibility as to how DEs (whether using rifles or not) will play, letting us customize our gameplay. I can't wait to see the update and to practice myself ^^

[Sojourner.4621]

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

As a PvP Deadeye...

That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from both sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

[Arakiel GhostEyes.4598]

Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

[sneakytails.5629]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@sneakytails.5629 said:I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.

what has shadow meld got to do with counters to deaths judgement? shadow meld counters reveal not deaths judgement. with new deaths judement sure reveal will be one aditional counter to avoid it being cast, but man you should be able to already avoid most of those oneshots. using shadow meld then to be able to cast DJ altho you revealed the DE before is same as using BV to shoot DJ thorugh reflect. both on elite slot so you got to choose wich counter for DJ you want to ignore, there are allways plenty others left, most importantly evading - works allways.

There is no comparison between the current DJ which is fired while revealed and the new DJ which will be fired from stealth. The former allows counter-play, the latter does not because its too late, you dont see the DE until after you take the 20k hit.

The only real counter to stealth DJ is revealed which as I mentioned before can easily be made worthless with SM.

That is why I feel the current DJ is better, there is a trade-off when you use it.

[Almondjoy.8964]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

As a PvP Deadeye...

That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from

both

sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

THIS ^^^ as a PVE Deadeye I just hope it will good or the same as DPS. I will be trying that D/D build or D/P though. I do have faith in the devs though and im more excited than angry or nervous.

[cyberwolf.5830]

Since you want more stealth gameplay can you please remove/reduce stealth skills cooldown and reduce initiative for CnD?Or also give back some initiative if CnD hit the target if you don't want to just reduce it

[Astyrah.4015]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

As a PvP Deadeye...

That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. ...

Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation

exactly this. not everyone is a PvP player and for PvE i don't understand the dev claim of making it more simple and easier to understand with the new upcoming system when the system for it as it is now already makes DE the easiest and most simple class to playin PvE imo - they're going to take the one thing we have going for us and from what details they released to us it doesn't sound like they'll up our base damage by a lot to make up for the loss of DJ spamming in PvE.

tbh, i do hope for any class changes they make in the future for any spec, i wish that the devs would just open a thread and sit down with us and discuss with the community how to fix the less loved specs instead of just popping up and say "oh hey we heard ya'll and we think this is the best way to fix..." or atleast they read all of our comments here and make necessary adjustments.... but that's wishing for too much :(

[Bunny.9834]

@Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

OMG This! >.>Unless they increase the range and make the projectile faster....

[Zalavaaris.5329]

So I'm somewhat concerned with my damage output. It seems like all of my damage will now only come from DJs in stealth. So I need to have all of the stealth abilities on my bar (limiting my choice) so that when I do have full malice I can actually use it. If I use my kneel to do higher damage then I wont have access to that stealth right? I'm having a hard time envisioning the rotation for the new rifle deadeye. Any clarification would be amazing!

[Leo G.4501]

@Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

Well obviously, they'll tack on some kind of buff to your auto attack for 3 shots to super charge your damage after a successful DJ...because spamming autos, that's more compelling gameplay!

[Equinox.1463]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

As a PvP Deadeye...

That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from

both

sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

I couldn't agree with you more on the PvP aspect. Although I may want to understand... isn't there also other weapons that cost less initiative when activating their skills? I can't remember precisely, but let's say SB #2 hits multiple times (I know they don't stack malice, but they give better chance at crits), and it costs 3 ini. Thus, it needs 4 critical hits done four times, and 12 ini, then your malice is up and doesn't go down until you hit with a stealth attack. We're talking strategy here, but I get what you mean. Rifles in PvE are tough to play! They are meant for PvP I believe? But it also goes against the "Anyone can be anything" mantra of GW2.

I guess we just need to wait and see what the devs have made for us. I was commenting because there,s quite a few "Yay, we're getting nerfed when we're already weak" comments, where their commenters didn't seem to understand how the showed mechanics functionned XD.

[Arakiel GhostEyes.4598]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

Well obviously, they'll tack on some kind of buff to your auto attack for 3 shots to super charge your damage after a successful DJ...because spamming autos, that's more compelling gameplay!

I don't understand what you mean. What does the auto attack have to do with malice losing the passive dmg buff or with malice requiring you to do dmg with initiative costing skills to build ? Not to mention that apparently deadeyes now has to build around using their stealth attack to maximise malice usage.

And since you mention spamming how is spamming 3 round burst to build malice to then stealth into DJ any different from spamming autos until malice got full and you used DJ ?

[Zalavaaris.5329]

So without stealth malice is useless? So we need as much stealth as possible to actually utilize it?

[babazhook.6805]

I do have a concern that with all of the blocks, evades, Invuln frames, reflects and dodges out there , the ability to build malice will be too severely compromised given it predicated on hitting the target. The way Thief works is we are give a number of hard hitting attacks that can be used consecutively as long as we have INI as a means of breaking down defenses through consecutive use of said skills. It not unusual for over half of our INI expending attacks to miss or be mitigated in combat this translating to a double whammy of sorts in the new Malice system wherein not only is damage mitigated directly via those methods, but that potential future damage shrinks as well.

If you can not build malice unless you hit then the spec becomes even more tied to the +1 encounters wherein you need to rely on another burning off a given enemies blocks/dodges and invuln frames for you to be able to build that malice. With the current system you can rely on Malice over time to build to the point where all attacks hit harder. With the new system , no change in gameplay needed on the part of the target and they can shut down both ongoing damage and the amount of malice built with the same defensive measure.

Some of compared this to Adrenaline in that the warrior has to do much the same , but the problem with this comparison is the warrior has much more staying power and sustain with ample heals , armor,and initial health pool. They are able to stick in a fight much longer then can a thief so as to build that adrenaline for their bursts or heals. Adrenaline can also be built by ANY attack and not just those that expend ini.

Given malice build will also be tied to skills that use INI , the DE spec will be even more reliant on their INI pool than other specs translating to TR being even more important . The DE Spec has nothing to add INI yet it INI that fuels malice and I feel it going to be required that there be a source in the DE spec to address this. At the end of the day given the current outline of changes , Malice is not fueled by attacks, it fueled by INI.

[Sojourner.4621]

@DigiQWill.6378 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@DigiQWill.6378 said:As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

As a PvP Deadeye...

That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from

both

sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

I couldn't agree with you more on the PvP aspect. Although I may want to understand... isn't there also other weapons that cost less initiative when activating their skills? I can't remember precisely, but let's say SB #2 hits multiple times (I know they don't stack malice, but they give better chance at crits), and it costs 3 ini. Thus, it needs 4 critical hits done four times, and 12 ini, then your malice is up and doesn't go down until you hit with a stealth attack. We're talking strategy here, but I get what you mean. Rifles in PvE are tough to play! They are meant for PvP I believe? But it also goes against the "Anyone can be anything" mantra of GW2.

I guess we just need to wait and see what the devs have made for us. I was commenting because there,s quite a few "Yay, we're getting nerfed when we're already weak" comments, where their commenters didn't seem to understand how the showed mechanics functionned XD.

No, the minimum initiative cost for any skill is 3, and even if it weren't, weapon swap still has a longer cool-down on thief than 6 seconds so it still eliminates the ability to get stacks up on one weapon, then swap to rifle and use DJ at the same rate, which is the source of all the DPS on deadeye in PvE at the moment.

[Astyrah.4015]

with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

[Scud.5067]

@Astyrah.4015 said:with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

They should probably go the whole way, after adopting a WoW-esque Combo point system, and have the combo points stick on the target rather than the thief.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

@Scud.5067 said:

@Astyrah.4015 said:with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

They should probably go the whole way, after adopting a WoW-esque Combo point system, and have the combo points stick on the target rather than the thief.

I believe in WoW the combo points now stack on the rogue as a qol issue.

[Asur.9178]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:In a previous update we increased the damage of rifle skills to put Deadeye in a good spot from a DPS-perspective, so this update is focused more around improving their gameplay patterns and mechanics.

Considering the whole change to rifle DPS was done through a single skill, which has now become exclusive to stealth, I hope your overall changes balances this out because otherwise you effectively killed the DPS boost you gave rifle because you decided to do it through a single skill.

We will find out come Tuesday, but I hope you will not let me down. Time will tell!

[Scud.5067]

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:

@Scud.5067 said:

@Astyrah.4015 said:with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

They should probably go the whole way, after adopting a WoW-esque Combo point system, and have the combo points stick on the target rather than the thief.

I believe in WoW the combo points now stack on the rogue as a qol issue.

Ah yes, you're right. Got mixed up.

[bq pd.2148]

@sneakytails.5629 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@sneakytails.5629 said:I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.

what has shadow meld got to do with counters to deaths judgement? shadow meld counters reveal not deaths judgement. with new deaths judement sure reveal will be one aditional counter to avoid it being cast, but man you should be able to already avoid most of those oneshots. using shadow meld then to be able to cast DJ altho you revealed the DE before is same as using BV to shoot DJ thorugh reflect. both on elite slot so you got to choose wich counter for DJ you want to ignore, there are allways plenty others left, most importantly evading - works allways.

There is no comparison between the current DJ which is fired while revealed and the new DJ which will be fired from stealth. The former allows counter-play, the latter does not because its too late, you dont see the DE until after you take the 20k hit.

The only real counter to stealth DJ is revealed which as I mentioned before can easily be made worthless with SM.

That is why I feel the current DJ is better, there is a trade-off when you use it.

they just said the new DJ will be a stealth attack, nothing about a rework to the tells.stealth attacks are AA skill that a thief gets while in stealth. so this just means in order to start casting the new DJ you need to be in stealth.but it might still reveal you like it does now.

[Bazsi.2734]

As someone who forced rifle deadeye as a joke in ranked pvp, upon properly learning how to use it I secured a place for myself in the EU top 100 with it(top 25 even sometimes, depending on my luck). The playstyle I'm going with will definitely be destroyed by this rework, so I dislike it for this very subjective reason, yet I'm trying to evaluate it objectively: whats good for deadeye and for the game in general?

What I like:

• taking away passive malice regen. Marking someone from stealth and waiting for Malicious Seven to proc is dumb and it needs to go.

What I dont like:

• malice spent with stealth attacks. I dislike this for numerous reasons: stacking malice as fast as possible is now a must, so it forces the same amulet on every deadeye. Secondly, this forces the same "stealth every time you maxed out on malice for optimal effectiveness" pattern... this won't do anything good for diversity. Unless the trait rework gives significant boost to wastly different aspects of the deadeye, there will be 1 build after the rework thats viable.
• the rifle skill rework sounds awful... nothing screams thief like "defensive barrier". I have no problem with deciding when and where to kneel in pvp matches. Of course you have to learn it, it makes you vulnerable, thats the whole point! It adds a skillcap to an otherwise painfully simplistic spec.
• Cursed Bullet is an extremely powerful tool for deadeye, and it gets taken away. Its an unblockable 3-4K damage attack that corrupts 3 boons, every 4 seconds if you force your cooldowns to restealth. I dont expect a support skill with such strenght to become reality. So this is a huge nerf to deadeye in pvp, taking away the best tool it had to deal with blocks/stab/boonspam.

On the trait rework, there isnt sufficient info to evaluate.

I really like deadeye the way it is right now, it's the most fun I've had since the game released. It's something so simple it borders on dumb, yet you can combine the few tools you have to overcome almost anything with the right judgement(pun intended) and rotations.

[Leo G.4501]

@Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

Well obviously, they'll tack on some kind of buff to your auto attack for 3 shots to super charge your damage after a successful DJ...because spamming autos, that's more compelling gameplay!

I don't understand what you mean. What does the auto attack have to do with malice losing the passive dmg buff or with malice requiring you to do dmg with initiative costing skills to build ? Not to mention that apparently deadeyes now has to build around using their stealth attack to maximise malice usage.

And since you mention spamming how is spamming 3 round burst to build malice to then stealth into DJ any different from spamming autos until malice got full and you used DJ ?

Well I say that because there's no rule stating you need full malice (or any malice) to use DJ. To counter your complaint of being unable to hit the target enough, the devs would likely give you some watered down alternative to the previous style with the suggestion that it's more active and compelling than how it used to be. In the perspective of PvP (which I'm not a PvPer), I bet nothing will be done to compensate the projectile hate that Cursed Bullet dealt with but you'll now be forced to use stealth to attain the damage you had before minus the unblockable shot.

[bq pd.2148]

@Bazsi.2734 said:What I like:

• taking away passive malice regen. Marking someone from stealth and waiting for Malicious Seven to proc is dumb and it needs to go.

the passive malice regen did perfectly what this system was designed for, to give the victim enough time and warning before the big hitter. waiting in stealth for M7 is therefor just minimizing those warnings and you pay with having to wait longer. passive regen also allowed malice to be gained while kiting, evading enemy attacks etc or poking with AA, if you did run silent scope you needed 9 ini to kneel + DJ when its up so you were not able to deplete your ini while kiting and poking if you wanted to apply a killing DJ, because base you just have 12 ini.the reason behind malice change was also not that this playstyle was dumb as you say but because it was 'confusing' that you as a DE did not know when you will have your next malice as mentioned in the OP :@Gaile Gray.6029 said:This system was built to allow for very high damage attacks with enough warning to the victim that there would be room for counterplay.However while we feel the current system is effective at these goals, it is also confusing. It's difficult to understand how much of a benefit you get from attacking your mark and to calculate when your next malice gain will occur.

therefor i proposed to give additional to the current proposed malice gain 1 more malice simply for using a skill that costs ini. because then you also get malice if your target evades, blocks, invuln or if you use skills that rarely will hit like death's retreat, infiltrators shot , infiltrators return etc. and it still will not be more 'confusing' for the deadeye as every malice gain is still based on an action and hitting the mark is still rewareded in faster malice gain. ofc in this case kneel has to cost 0 ini to avoid abuse, its already CD based anyway.

What I dont like:

• the rifle skill rework sounds awful... nothing screams thief like "defensive barrier". I have no problem with deciding when and where to kneel in pvp matches. Of course you have to learn it, it makes you vulnerable, thats the whole point! It adds a skillcap to an otherwise painfully simplistic spec.while i dont mind having a defensive barrier, you know on top - i still would prefer having stealth access on rifle, especially if our malice is used on stealth attacks.tho maybe we dont even lose the stealth i am not exactly sure about that. because they said :@Gaile Gray.6029 said:With these changes, the iconic Deadeye malice skill, Death's Judgment, is also becoming a stealth attack. This gave us room to make some adjustments to the rest of the rifle skills in order to address its somewhat stale gameplay loop. Kneel and the Silent Scope trait have been changed to allow for more flexible kneeling and stealth while Sniper's Cover has been totally reworked into a new defensive skill that fills the slot previously occupied by Death's Judgement. This new skill creates a defensive barrier while kneeling that can combo with other thief abilities. When taken together, these changes help to give each rifle skill a more defined purpose and allow rifle wielders to handle a larger variety of combat situations.therefor we probably have a different traited stealth access ( silent scope was changed for that not snipers cover) and a barrier on the freed slot on top( instead of snipers cover).
• Cursed Bullet is an extremely powerful tool for deadeye, and it gets taken away. Its an unblockable 3-4K damage attack that corrupts 3 boons, every 4 seconds if you force your cooldowns to restealth. I dont expect a support skill with such strenght to become reality. So this is a huge nerf to deadeye in pvp, taking away the best tool it had to deal with blocks/stab/boonspam.

maybe we get DJ unblockable instead, wich would be kind of a tradeoff because we got now an additional tell by going into stealth. but the boonrip part..i often used it to remove protection or corrupt stability into fear, as i dont use any cantrip aside from shadow meld and rarely shadow gust i think i wont have that boonrip anymore.I really like deadeye the way it is right now, it's the most fun I've had since the game released. It's something so simple it borders on dumb, yet you can combine the few tools you have to overcome almost anything with the right judgement(pun intended) and rotations.tho we play our deadeye very different, i agree with you on this one :D