The issue that is the current state of PVP

pah.4931 · May 4, 2018

@Ithilwen.1529 said:
@pah.4931 said:
@Ithilwen.1529 said:I think that the ranting against Mesmer reflects a lack of understanding of the class.
I can beat a Mirage or Chrono on core Mesmer.. probably better than half the time in ranked.
Mesmer has never been a straightforward "look I swung my sword" kind of class. More often than not, players who lose to me beat themselves. (including one prominent high ranking player who walked into a shatter.)

Oh come on. There's a tourney coming up with $2000 in prizes (wooden potatoes is casting) and they actually BANNED chronomancer because everyone agrees it's OP and broken right now for sPvP.

Therein lies the problem in my opinion.

There's a mob mentality that wants things to be EASY. It turns against anything that requires a higher level of skill or interaction to deal with.

We keep descending toward the lowest common denominator.

While I agree that this does happen with classes, it also doesn't mean that a class isn't busted because everyone agrees it's busted. I think this happens more with perceived bad professions more than anything else. Reapers and Revenants come to mind. With a good pilot, both can do some ridiculous things in sPvP but the community has mostly written them off.

Here's the cold hard fact. Balanced or not, games without scourges and mesmers are almost always fun for me. Maybe I'm bad and just want everything to be easy (which is absurd because I get plenty wrecked by other profs and other great players), or maybe those classes are poorly designed -- even if mathematically "balanced" -- for healthy pvp gameplay. MAYBE?

Ithilwen.1529 · May 4, 2018

@pah.4931 said:
@Ithilwen.1529 said:
@pah.4931 said:
@Ithilwen.1529 said:I think that the ranting against Mesmer reflects a lack of understanding of the class.
I can beat a Mirage or Chrono on core Mesmer.. probably better than half the time in ranked.
Mesmer has never been a straightforward "look I swung my sword" kind of class. More often than not, players who lose to me beat themselves. (including one prominent high ranking player who walked into a shatter.)

Oh come on. There's a tourney coming up with $2000 in prizes (wooden potatoes is casting) and they actually BANNED chronomancer because everyone agrees it's OP and broken right now for sPvP.

Therein lies the problem in my opinion.

There's a mob mentality that wants things to be EASY. It turns against anything that requires a higher level of skill or interaction to deal with.

We keep descending toward the lowest common denominator.

While I agree that this does happen with classes, it also doesn't mean that a class isn't busted because everyone agrees it's busted. I think this happens more with perceived bad professions more than anything else. Reapers and Revenants come to mind. With a good pilot, both can do some ridiculous things in sPvP but the community has mostly written them off.

Here's the cold hard fact. Balanced or not, games without scourges and mesmers are almost always fun for me. Maybe I'm bad and just want everything to be easy (which is absurd because I get plenty wrecked by other profs and other great players), or maybe those classes are poorly designed -- even if mathematically "balanced" -- for healthy pvp gameplay. MAYBE?

The counter argument is that there are a lot of dedicated players who's fun is invested in playing Mesmer or Scourge. ( though I think making very large moving aoe was a serious disservice to scourge. Always before, moving aoe has been small to counter the fact that it's mobile. Making huge aoe circles that move... is a formula for hatred. )

In my case, I play Mesmer in both GW1 and GW2, ( though I main Monk in GW1.) Mesmer has been my main for years alongside Thief. I'm not a bandwagon player. Trashing my fun is no better or worse than trashing yours.

One reason I still play PU core Mesmer is that I fully expect Mirage to be so heavily nerfed that it's unplayable. I experienced that with Chronomancer and don't want to repeat it. Maybe in a couple of years, when players have learned to deal with Mirage and the nerf howls subside...

Until then, I 'll play a core Mesmer and if my teammates dislike that... well, that's unfortunate.

pah.4931 · May 4, 2018

@Ithilwen.1529 said:
@pah.4931 said:
@Ithilwen.1529 said:
@pah.4931 said:
@Ithilwen.1529 said:I think that the ranting against Mesmer reflects a lack of understanding of the class.
I can beat a Mirage or Chrono on core Mesmer.. probably better than half the time in ranked.
Mesmer has never been a straightforward "look I swung my sword" kind of class. More often than not, players who lose to me beat themselves. (including one prominent high ranking player who walked into a shatter.)

Oh come on. There's a tourney coming up with $2000 in prizes (wooden potatoes is casting) and they actually BANNED chronomancer because everyone agrees it's OP and broken right now for sPvP.

Therein lies the problem in my opinion.

There's a mob mentality that wants things to be EASY. It turns against anything that requires a higher level of skill or interaction to deal with.

We keep descending toward the lowest common denominator.

While I agree that this does happen with classes, it also doesn't mean that a class isn't busted because everyone agrees it's busted. I think this happens more with perceived bad professions more than anything else. Reapers and Revenants come to mind. With a good pilot, both can do some ridiculous things in sPvP but the community has mostly written them off.

Here's the cold hard fact. Balanced or not, games without scourges and mesmers are almost always fun for me. Maybe I'm bad and just want everything to be easy (which is absurd because I get plenty wrecked by other profs and other great players), or maybe those classes are poorly designed -- even if mathematically "balanced" -- for healthy pvp gameplay. MAYBE?

The counter argument is that there are a lot of dedicated players who's fun is invested in playing Mesmer or Scourge. ( though I think making very large moving aoe was a serious disservice to scourge. Always before, moving aoe has been small to counter the fact that it's mobile. Making huge aoe circles that move... is a formula for hatred. )

In my case, I play Mesmer in both GW1 and GW2, ( though I main Monk in GW1.) Mesmer has been my main for years alongside Thief. I'm not a bandwagon player.

Trashing my fun is no better or worse than trashing yours.

One reason I still play PU core Mesmer is that I fully expect Mirage to be so heavily nerfed that it's unplayable. I experienced that with Chronomancer and don't want to repeat it.

Maybe in a couple of years, when players have learned to deal with Mirage and the nerf howls subside...

Until then, I 'll play a core Mesmer and if my teammates dislike that... well, that's unfortunate.

Well that's on Anet to get right (easier said than done, sure). But yes, they often either do too little or way too much, historically, when it comes to balancing. I want you to be able to play the class you love. But I don't need the class you love to be so good at almost everything in Conquest pvp that there are two per team and 2908789345 clones ;)

It's unfortunate when classes are well balanced and designed they seem pathetic and weak because some classes are just too good at everything (I'm a reaper main and it's fun and actually pretty good, but some classes are so powerful that there's little room to outplay them).

Chaith.8256 · May 4, 2018

@Ithilwen.1529 said:One reason I still play PU core Mesmer is that I fully expect Mirage to be so heavily nerfed that it's unplayable. I experienced that with Chronomancer and don't want to repeat it.

Chronomancer heavily nerfed into unplayability, interesting take on the current reality of GW2

???

Ithilwen.1529 · May 4, 2018

@Chaith.8256 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:One reason I still play PU core Mesmer is that I fully expect Mirage to be so heavily nerfed that it's unplayable. I experienced that with Chronomancer and don't want to repeat it.

Chronomancer heavily nerfed into unplayability, interesting take on the current reality of GW2

???

I was referring to the monster nerf that happened shortly after the release of Chronomancer. I note that that directly contradicted the stated policy at the time that such changes would not be made mid-season.

Some of the "professional" players objected to the point that one famously rage quit during a tournament game. I remember that when I'm accused of being "salty."

That incident made me very wary of learning a new elite, only to see it quashed by very heavy nerfs.

rot.4179 · May 4, 2018

thief needs major buff can we pls buff thief

Math.5123 · May 5, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Ithilwen.1529 said:@Shadowpass Better yet, let's duel.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Tell me when

Stream please. I'll pay you gold <3

McZero.5318 · May 5, 2018

Honestly the state of necromancer has me on the verge of uninstalling the entire game. It's destroying all potential fun.

Abazigal.3679 · May 5, 2018

The problem is like i said, you gotta view it as a whole. Nerfing mesmers and necros will be better, but won't fix the problem entirely. To fix these, you would need to get a look at the condition spamming ( i.e i apply xx condis, run in circle til you die). But by fixing this, spellbreakers, firebrands, deadeyes and druids won't have many counters..

HoT introduced heavy condi spamming. PoF introduced heavy condi spamming + big sustain. Asking to fix anything would mean to basically nerf everything. To me , the good fix would be to revamp old builds so everyone is on the same state, and you don't feel like the match is lost from the beginning because you have 2 core necros or because you have a terrible setup.

Chaith.8256 · May 5, 2018

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I was referring to the monster nerf that happened shortly after the release of Chronomancer. I note that that directly contradicted the stated policy at the time that such changes would not be made mid-season.
Some of the "professional" players objected to the point that one famously rage quit during a tournament game. I remember that when I'm accused of being "salty."
That incident made me very wary of learning a new elite, only to see it quashed by very heavy nerfs.

You're so single-mindedly selfish. Even though Chronomancer has never once been in a bad spot, the fact that it needed to be nerfed along with other specs doesn't mean it wasn't absolutely necessary, and mid-season was already too late.

Malafaia.8903 · May 5, 2018

I'm playing condi mirage atm, staff - axe/ torch.I don't even think it's meta, even the traits i'm using aren't.What can i say from my experience in high gold/ low plat: fighting chronomancers is PAINFUL.The shatter bursty one can be a pain when they get you off guard, but there's a bunker build that spams clones infinitly with a lot of stealth, that thing is a nightmare.

Scourges? I don't really think they're that much issue anymore.I mean, seriously, a GOOD condi soulbeast can be a lot more threatening than a scourge (tho i only find one of these guys, cheers to you).

In general i think we are not in that bad of state on pvp.And i'm talking seriously here, i'm seen a lot more build diversity than last season.Don't know about high plat/ legendary, but what else i can say? i'm having fun.

will de grijze jager.6594 · May 5, 2018

@Abazigal.3679 said:The problem is like i said, you gotta view it as a whole. Nerfing mesmers and necros will be better, but won't fix the problem entirely. To fix these, you would need to get a look at the condition spamming ( i.e i apply xx condis, run in circle til you die). But by fixing this, spellbreakers, firebrands, deadeyes and druids won't have many counters..
HoT introduced heavy condi spamming. PoF introduced heavy condi spamming + big sustain. Asking to fix anything would mean to basically nerf everything. To me , the good fix would be to revamp old builds so everyone is on the same state, and you don't feel like the match is lost from the beginning because you have 2 core necros or because you have a terrible setup.

nerfing everything is a good thing the power creep is to much no skills anymore even a noob can win wiht juist spamming a skill. SCOURGE AND MESMER PLAYERS. Before anyone say l2p issue i can kill them but it is no fun to fight them i like hard fights, but in the hands of a great player those Mesmer can be almost unkillable.

Rodzynald.5897 · May 5, 2018

It seems as if the core ideas of elite specs are to blame. It leaves me under impression that they think only about PvE when skills and traits are implemented because it sounds cool and may have some synergies. Certain abilities should never see the daylight in PvP, because they are simply unfitting for such a game mode. No class should have an edge over others just because it has more access to certain tools. There is little rock, paper, scissors. We rather have a few rocks, one paper, half a scissor and perhaps two atom bombs. What would be a good way to fix things, is a power de-creep, but it would tkae too much resources at this point, because for some reason PvP team does not balance PvP, which is a grevious mistake. Besides, PvP dev said that they will not change any class mechanics, so they refuse to fix one of the main problems of the balance itself.To explain on an example: I can't think of any other game that gives one class an access to so many ways of control over a fight, disenagement options, defensive capabilities on top of dealing tons of damage. I would rather like for mirage to have a normal dodge and a 3-4 second 70% damage reduction after an evaded attack is registered. This might make them formidable, yet not untouchable. However, we cannot tell for sure if that would actually work because devs don't test it on their own the way they are supposed to, nor we have any reliable players who would do it for them. At least I think so based on how it looks like currently, the bad design of many skills, not just mesmer's.

mortrialus.3062 · May 5, 2018

@Ithilwen.1529 said:
@pah.4931 said:
@Ithilwen.1529 said:I think that the ranting against Mesmer reflects a lack of understanding of the class.
I can beat a Mirage or Chrono on core Mesmer.. probably better than half the time in ranked.
Mesmer has never been a straightforward "look I swung my sword" kind of class. More often than not, players who lose to me beat themselves. (including one prominent high ranking player who walked into a shatter.)

Oh come on. There's a tourney coming up with $2000 in prizes (wooden potatoes is casting) and they actually BANNED chronomancer because everyone agrees it's OP and broken right now for sPvP.

Therein lies the problem in my opinion.

There's a mob mentality that wants things to be EASY. It turns against anything that requires a higher level of skill or interaction to deal with.

We keep descending toward the lowest common denominator.

If Chrono wasn't banned literally half of the two finalist teams would be Chronomancers, which is what's been happening during WoodenPotatoes AT casts. He'll stream an Automated Tournament, and one finalist team will have two Chronomancers and the other one will have three Chronomancers.

mortrialus.3062 · May 5, 2018