"A Big, EMPTY Map"

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"SkyShroud.2865" said:The issue is if maps are not rewarding, even with contents, people will eventually stop doing it.

Well, my point I guess is that this is a map where people

would

"stop doing it," pretty quickly, but that's ok. I mean they put out a lot of maps that are intended to be replayed constantly, and they should continue to do that, definitely. But this would be one that's just intended to add a little depth to the world at a lowered development cost.

It would basically have a lot less work to it, definitely not "no work," but like if the average new map has maybe 3-5 heart quests, 1-2 meta events and a couple dozen smaller ones, all sorts of hidden caves, small communities, NPCs with dialog, etc., this map would have very little of that, Maybe 1 heart quest, or none at all. No meta events, maybe no events at all. no unique mobs or artwork, just repurposed assets from the area around it. No overly complex terrain, just pull mountains and trees out of the draw and slap them around. It may have 1-2 small communities near the edges, but nothing overly complicated there either. They could add NPCs and situations for Current Events or something, but don't have to.

I really love the care and attention that ANet puts into most of their maps, and look forward to the next of those, but that wouldn't be the point of something like this, this would just be to give better geographical continuity to the world by connecting the dots, without breaking the bank by requiring the same level of detail that a "core" map has to cover.

Again, if it'd be way too much work, I agree it wouldn't be worth it, and this shouldn't

take the place

of a full LW map release, I just have a feeling this is something they could knock together on a budget relative to their other priorities as more of a "Current Events" scale project.

Now, for the first case, a non-rewarding map with large content will later on become nothing but a burden to new players because there just isn't enough new players to do them.

And definitely, anything that would "need to be done" on that map, if anything at all, it should be soloable and also focused to specific areas, because yeah, finding other players there would be inconsistent.

I ask you again, what is the point of such a map? No content, no new mobs, no new artwork, no hearts. No reason to visit it. So what is the point of it? There is none.

I can see it used for simply filling out the world. Make landmass connection between currently unconnected areas, like Scavenger's Causeway.

[Ohoni.6057]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"SkyShroud.2865" said:The issue is if maps are not rewarding, even with contents, people will eventually stop doing it.

Well, my point I guess is that this is a map where people

would

"stop doing it," pretty quickly, but that's ok. I mean they put out a lot of maps that are intended to be replayed constantly, and they should continue to do that, definitely. But this would be one that's just intended to add a little depth to the world at a lowered development cost.

It would basically have a lot less work to it, definitely not "no work," but like if the average new map has maybe 3-5 heart quests, 1-2 meta events and a couple dozen smaller ones, all sorts of hidden caves, small communities, NPCs with dialog, etc., this map would have very little of that, Maybe 1 heart quest, or none at all. No meta events, maybe no events at all. no unique mobs or artwork, just repurposed assets from the area around it. No overly complex terrain, just pull mountains and trees out of the draw and slap them around. It may have 1-2 small communities near the edges, but nothing overly complicated there either. They could add NPCs and situations for Current Events or something, but don't have to.

I really love the care and attention that ANet puts into most of their maps, and look forward to the next of those, but that wouldn't be the point of something like this, this would just be to give better geographical continuity to the world by connecting the dots, without breaking the bank by requiring the same level of detail that a "core" map has to cover.

Again, if it'd be way too much work, I agree it wouldn't be worth it, and this shouldn't

take the place

of a full LW map release, I just have a feeling this is something they could knock together on a budget relative to their other priorities as more of a "Current Events" scale project.

Now, for the first case, a non-rewarding map with large content will later on become nothing but a burden to new players because there just isn't enough new players to do them.

And definitely, anything that would "need to be done" on that map, if anything at all, it should be soloable and also focused to specific areas, because yeah, finding other players there would be inconsistent.

I ask you again, what is the point of such a map? No content, no new mobs, no new artwork, no hearts. No reason to visit it. So what is the point of it? There is none.

Geographical continuity. It's to have contiguous land mass between points A and B. Players have been wanting to pass through the gates in Ebon Hawk since launch, and with Highlands it's implied that the connecting map might not be made. I'm just saying, if they have no idea how to make a map "worth it" as a massive, highly detailed, "chock full of adventure" style map, I would really prefer to see a "nothing" map than no map at all. I take it you disagree, but that's ok.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"SkyShroud.2865" said:The issue is if maps are not rewarding, even with contents, people will eventually stop doing it.

Well, my point I guess is that this is a map where people

would

"stop doing it," pretty quickly, but that's ok. I mean they put out a lot of maps that are intended to be replayed constantly, and they should continue to do that, definitely. But this would be one that's just intended to add a little depth to the world at a lowered development cost.

It would basically have a lot less work to it, definitely not "no work," but like if the average new map has maybe 3-5 heart quests, 1-2 meta events and a couple dozen smaller ones, all sorts of hidden caves, small communities, NPCs with dialog, etc., this map would have very little of that, Maybe 1 heart quest, or none at all. No meta events, maybe no events at all. no unique mobs or artwork, just repurposed assets from the area around it. No overly complex terrain, just pull mountains and trees out of the draw and slap them around. It may have 1-2 small communities near the edges, but nothing overly complicated there either. They could add NPCs and situations for Current Events or something, but don't have to.

I really love the care and attention that ANet puts into most of their maps, and look forward to the next of those, but that wouldn't be the point of something like this, this would just be to give better geographical continuity to the world by connecting the dots, without breaking the bank by requiring the same level of detail that a "core" map has to cover.

Again, if it'd be way too much work, I agree it wouldn't be worth it, and this shouldn't

take the place

of a full LW map release, I just have a feeling this is something they could knock together on a budget relative to their other priorities as more of a "Current Events" scale project.

Now, for the first case, a non-rewarding map with large content will later on become nothing but a burden to new players because there just isn't enough new players to do them.

And definitely, anything that would "need to be done" on that map, if anything at all, it should be soloable and also focused to specific areas, because yeah, finding other players there would be inconsistent.

I ask you again, what is the point of such a map? No content, no new mobs, no new artwork, no hearts. No reason to visit it. So what is the point of it? There is none.

Geographical continuity. It's to have contiguous land mass between points A and B. Players have been wanting to pass through the gates in Ebon Hawk since launch, and with Highlands it's implied that the connecting map might not be made. I'm just saying, if they have no idea how to make a map "worth it" as a massive, highly detailed, "chock full of adventure" style map, I would really prefer to see a "nothing" map than no map at all. I take it you disagree, but that's ok.

Geographical continuity won't be improved by placing empty maps at all. It would be ignored if anything. Just because there's space there physically doesn't mean there's continuity.

Some things are also best left to the imagination.

[Ohoni.6057]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Geographical continuity won't be improved by placing empty maps at all. It would be ignored if anything. Just because there's space there physically doesn't mean there's continuity.

Tell that to the Midwest.

Badumbum, just kidding guys.

Obviously it wouldn't be like a 2d plane or anything, it would be landscape, just not terribly original or content-rich landscape. The point is, you could physically travel from A to B, there would be natural terrain along the way, it just turns out that nobody bothered to build any fancy structures there, no labs, no settlements, no pirate caves, it's just rocks and trees, like most of the real world.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I'm just wondering, how much of a burden would it be on the creative team to create a big, but empty map?

By that I just mean a map that takes up a large chunk of Tyria's real estate, but that isn't as crammed full of little details as we've come to expect from a GW2 map. I get that making a map on the scale of the Desolation would take a lot of work, which is why they tend to make slightly smaller maps more often, but would it be possible to make a map that is mostly just "not much going on here?"

Maybe take a place like the empty gap between Ebonhawk and the Highlands. Have little communities and activities that happen right along the top and bottom edges of the map, enough to entertain people, but have most of the middle of the map just be "rocks and trees," placed perhaps not as painstakingly as some of the other maps, maybe scatter some generic mobs for flavor, but with no particular reason to fight them. All the "content" would cluster in the relatively small communities on the edges, but it would give the world more "depth" to still connect these routes physically, even if they can't justify building an entire story around that region. The "empty" area in the middle would at minim be a fun place to ride or fly through.

Again, if this would still take a ton of work, then fine, not worth pursuing, but if it's something that could be knocked together relatively easily using spare parts, it's better than leaving some of these areas off the map entirely.

(and also, just as an aside, I'm still hoping for a desert map that that is like 80-90% "nothing but sand dunes," with only a few islands of actual rock and life. I wanted that from the PoF expansion, but the closest we got was some tiny dune regions in Oasis and Riverlands.)

It's not the work that's the problem. It's the wasted potential. The empty parts of the map hold some promise that one day you can go there and find something interesting. Deliberately creating a dull map that you have zero incentive to ever go visit is... pointless.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

This suggestion seems similar to The Arid Sea in Guild Wars 1. It's not bigger than the other maps, but only one quest leads there (although quite an important one), and otherwise there's hardly anything there - even the enemies are pretty sparse. Of course, most players probably only went there once, for that quest - or maybe twice if they wanted to vanquish it and/or get 100% exploration.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I'm just wondering, how much of a burden would it be on the creative team to create a big, but

empty

map?

By that I just mean a map that takes up a large chunk of Tyria's real estate, but that isn't as crammed full of little details as we've come to expect from a GW2 map. I get that making a map on the scale of the Desolation would take a lot of work, which is why they tend to make slightly smaller maps more often, but would it be possible to make a map that is mostly just "not much going on here?"

Maybe take a place like the empty gap between Ebonhawk and the Highlands. Have little communities and activities that happen right along the top and bottom edges of the map, enough to entertain people, but have most of the middle of the map just be "rocks and trees," placed perhaps not as painstakingly as some of the other maps, maybe scatter some generic mobs for flavor, but with no particular reason to fight them. All the "content" would cluster in the relatively small communities on the edges, but it would give the world more "depth" to still connect these routes physically, even if they can't justify building an entire story around that region. The "empty" area in the middle would at minim be a fun place to ride or fly through.

Again, if this would still take a ton of work, then fine, not worth pursuing, but if it's something that could be knocked together relatively easily using spare parts, it's better than leaving some of these areas off the map entirely.

(and also, just as an aside, I'm

still

hoping for a desert map that that is like 80-90% "nothing but sand dunes," with only a few islands of actual rock and life. I wanted that from the PoF expansion, but the closest we got was some tiny dune regions in Oasis and Riverlands.)

It's not the work that's the problem. It's the wasted potential. The empty parts of the map hold some promise that one day you can go there and find something interesting. Deliberately creating a dull map that you have zero incentive to ever go visit is... pointless.

But again, they have a TON of space to work with. If you took the entire space of known Tyria, the entire mapped part in GW2 is basically like central Europe and a bit of the Middle East, with all of Scandinavia, Asia, Africa, and Australia out there left to find. They could make the mapped space about ten times its current size, and still have room for more, not even including the potential of the mists and alternate realms. The "opportunity lost" in creating a relatively empty map is a minor one at best. I mean, if they have a really great idea of what to do in a given area, then they should do that, but if not, they can just put their cool ideas elsewhere and we'd all be fine. They could even make changes to the "empty" map at a later date, like with Kessex Hills, either causing an event to drastically alter the terrain, or just open up previously undiscovered areas, like caves leading into massive underground ruins. Nothing would be lost there.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm just wondering, how much of a burden would it be on the creative team to create a big, but

empty

map?

By that I just mean a map that takes up a large chunk of Tyria's real estate, but that isn't as crammed full of little details as we've come to expect from a GW2 map. I get that making a map on the scale of the Desolation would take a lot of work, which is why they tend to make slightly smaller maps more often, but would it be possible to make a map that is mostly just "not much going on here?"

Maybe take a place like the empty gap between Ebonhawk and the Highlands. Have little communities and activities that happen right along the top and bottom edges of the map, enough to entertain people, but have most of the middle of the map just be "rocks and trees," placed perhaps not as painstakingly as some of the other maps, maybe scatter some generic mobs for flavor, but with no particular reason to fight them. All the "content" would cluster in the relatively small communities on the edges, but it would give the world more "depth" to still connect these routes physically, even if they can't justify building an entire story around that region. The "empty" area in the middle would at minim be a fun place to ride or fly through.

Again, if this would still take a ton of work, then fine, not worth pursuing, but if it's something that could be knocked together relatively easily using spare parts, it's better than leaving some of these areas off the map entirely.

(and also, just as an aside, I'm

still

hoping for a desert map that that is like 80-90% "nothing but sand dunes," with only a few islands of actual rock and life. I wanted that from the PoF expansion, but the closest we got was some tiny dune regions in Oasis and Riverlands.)

It's not the work that's the problem. It's the wasted potential. The empty parts of the map hold some promise that one day you can go there and find something interesting. Deliberately creating a dull map that you have zero incentive to ever go visit is... pointless.

But again, they have a TON of space to work with. If you took the entire space of known Tyria, the

entire

mapped part in GW2 is basically like central Europe and a bit of the Middle East, with all of Scandinavia, Asia, Africa, and Australia out there left to find. They could make the mapped space about ten times its current size, and still have room for more, not even including the potential of the mists and alternate realms. The "opportunity lost" in creating a relatively empty map is a minor one at best. I mean, if they have a really great idea of what to do in a given area, then they should do that, but if not, they can just put their cool ideas elsewhere and we'd all be fine. They could even make changes to the "empty" map at a later date, like with Kessex Hills, either causing an event to drastically alter the terrain, or just open up previously undiscovered areas, like caves leading into massive underground ruins. Nothing would be lost there.

But they won't do that. They stated (around The Head of the Snake) that maps are frozen in time and changes won't happen anymore (Current Events aside). So you have lost development ressources that could have been used for actual content.

[PyrateSilly.4710]

You are missing the other thing besides a wide open map with not much on it that they are asking for -- a completely open PvP zone. Thou there is the zone in the Guild Halls to do PvP, there is the PvP lobby and then of course WvW to do PvP in but of course there are still some that want a PvE map that has open PvP

[GenghisKhan.7842]

Sorry but it's just a bad idea, wasting even just 10 minutes for something that is totally useless

[Loosmaster.8263]

@PyrateSilly.4710 said:You are missing the other thing besides a wide open map with not much on it that they are asking for -- a completely open PvP zone. Thou there is the zone in the Guild Halls to do PvP, there is the PvP lobby and then of course WvW to do PvP in but of course there are still some that want a PvE map that has open PvP

And all of those you mentioned have their limitations. OWPvP, everyone a combatant except if repping the same guild. No distractions like structures, seige, unlevel terrain.

Just synthesizer nodes(a lot) for enticement for farming the map. No specific ones to effect the market.

[Willhart.8230]

I think it'd be lovely to see the small holes in the current map filled somehow just to make it look neat and complete, but I also would not rush it with low quality work. How the world feels and connects is very important.

[Ardid.7203]

An "empty" map would only be fun if the devs take the time to make it interesting to traverse trough it. This means creating routes, obstacles and places to pause, and making sure there aren't graphic traps, inescapable points or glitches. Also to look decent it would need some variety in the terrain, and a minimum aesthetic polishing for the resting spots...In short, making an "empty" map would still be A LOT of work for the devs, so it would be more cost-efficient a not empty map anyway.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:But they won't do that. They stated (around The Head of the Snake) that maps are frozen in time and changes won't happen anymore (Current Events aside). So you have lost development ressources that could have been used for actual content.

You say that as if they are restricted by that announcement. Obviously they are not. They stated their intention that they would not significantly alter existing maps anymore, which is fine, but if ever they decided that it would be an interesting design choice to do so, they obviously could. So again, they are in no way prevented from making the sort of changes I described if they felt like it.

And again, I proposed this because I felt that it could be accomplished with relatively little development resources for the scope of this project, and agree that it would not be worth investing significant resources in producing, so if that's the dilemma, I agree it would not be worth it. It should not come at the cost of significant content, it should only come in addition to significant content.

@PyrateSilly.4710 said:You are missing the other thing besides a wide open map with not much on it that they are asking for -- a completely open PvP zone. Thou there is the zone in the Guild Halls to do PvP, there is the PvP lobby and then of course WvW to do PvP in but of course there are still some that want a PvE map that has open PvP

No, this is not an open world PvP game.

@"Ardid.7203" said:An "empty" map would only be fun if the devs take the time to make it interesting to traverse trough it. This means creating routes, obstacles and places to pause, and making sure there aren't graphic traps, inescapable points or glitches. Also to look decent it would need some variety in the terrain, and a minimum aesthetic polishing for the resting spots...In short, making an "empty" map would still be A LOT of work for the devs, so it would be more cost-efficient a not empty map anyway.

While I think that they would not need to put way too much effort into the terrain, I think they could avoid most "broken spots" by just using their existing art assets to build the terrain. Broken spots are more likely to occur when they try to get fancy by layering the terrain in complex shapes. Yes, this takes work, but it would take a lot less work than a fully fleshed out map. It would have few, if any event team members working on it, no new art assets to make, it could basically be a project for one or two devs, perhaps new hires that are learning the toolkit and earning their wings for a more major expansion.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:But they won't do that. They stated (around The Head of the Snake) that maps are frozen in time and changes won't happen anymore (Current Events aside). So you have lost development ressources that could have been used for actual content.

You say that as if they are restricted by that announcement. Obviously they are not. They stated their

intention

that they would not significantly alter existing maps anymore, which is fine, but if ever they decided that it would be an interesting design choice to do so, they obviously could. So again, they are in no way prevented from making the sort of changes I described if they felt like it.

And again, I proposed this because I felt that it could be accomplished with

relatively

little development resources for the scope of this project, and agree that it would not be worth investing

significant

resources in producing, so if that's the dilemma, I agree it would not be worth it. It should not come at the cost of significant content, it should only come

in addition to

significant content.Why should they create a map completely against their own design standards?Also it already happened in LS1 and many people didn't like it. The community already voted on that one. If you miss changes you will never experience them. If you just add stuff they can go with the current model.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Why should they create a map completely against their own design standards?

I answered this one above, "geographical continuity."

Also it already happened in LS1 and many people didn't like it.

If you mean the part about "changing an existing map," that was because people liked Kessex Hills the way it was. If you mean "empty maps" in general, they haven't made one yet, so there's no data on it.

[MetalGirl.2370]

I was so excited about PoF, thought they'd give huuuuuge map with just nothing but desert... and instead I got rocks and cliffs.So I like your idea, I'd love big empty map.

[Scrivs.4501]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Obviously it wouldn't be like a 2d plane or anything, it would be landscape, just not terribly original or content-rich landscape. The point is, you could physically travel from A to B, there would be natural terrain along the way, it just turns out that nobody bothered to build any fancy structures there, no labs, no settlements, no pirate caves, it's just rocks and trees, like most of the real world.

Sounds to me like what you really want is to have a valid reason and incentive to actually travel through the maps - i.e. the removal of waypoints.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Scrivs.4501 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Obviously it wouldn't be like a 2d plane or anything, it would be landscape, just not terribly original or content-rich landscape. The point is, you could physically travel from A to B, there would be natural terrain along the way, it just turns out that nobody bothered to build any fancy structures there, no labs, no settlements, no pirate caves, it's just rocks and trees, like most of the real world.

Sounds to me like what you really want is to have a valid reason and incentive to actually travel through the maps - i.e. the removal of waypoints.

Lol, no, WPs are good. I just want the option to travel on foot, I want those routes to actually exist where possible. They teased that Ebonhawke gate for five years, we need to go through it eventually.

[Biff.5312]

There's a lot of response to this, but looking it over I am either missing something or it hasn't been addressed:

WHY?

Why do you even want this? Who cares if they can make it? Why would they?

[Ohoni.6057]

@Biff.5312 said:There's a lot of response to this, but looking it over I am either missing something or it hasn't been addressed:

WHY?

Why do you even want this? Who cares if they can make it? Why would they?

Asked and answered, several times.