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Full Counter hits way too hard


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@Vova.2640 said:I couple nights ago in wvw, I used a meteor shower into an enemy zerg and got hit for 11k with full counter.Fun stuff.

Let it be forever enshrined in this thread that a staff elementalist casted a three second attack into a zerg in wvw, close enough to himself that he could be crit by a warrior using full counter.

You were already dead my guy. Warrior or not.

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@kipthelip.5802 said:This skill, even after some nerfs, remains one of the most over budget abilities in the game. Why should such a low skill ability hit me routinely for around 5K and thats with 2,600 toughness and scrapper runes.

The best advice I can give you is what others have said: don't attack Spellbreakers when they're using Full Counter. I know it doesn't help, but there's nothing you can do other than not hitting the Spellbreaker and dodge out of the way. If you're an elementalist, ranger or any other ranged profession, you can easily kite warriors. Trust me, warriors are as distracted as cats chasing a laser dot when they're being kited. They are by far the easiest profession to kite if you're good at it.

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The thing is, that some day, the Warriors should have to choose between :

1) Block, Daze, inflict cripple and slow, swiftness, , stab, resistance, even prot maybe, with the good trait.2) Deals 6k (I run zerk, and occasionally deals 8k+) average damages on crit, and of course, unblockable.

So that's it. 1, or 2. Not both. Not on a 10 sec CD. That's the point.

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This is a L2P issue. If you're fighting a Spellbreaker you don't spam attacks and you don't spam aoes, it will punish you for that. There are several ways to deal with FC. Like, say, bait it out. use skills with obvious animations and cancel em. warrior uses his FC, it goes on cooldown and you're free to attack him without fear of FC for 10-12 seconds. If you trigger it by accident, dodge! I know it has a quick animation, but it can be done- easily- with a bit of practice. If you have pulsing aoe (like Scourge) and the warrior uses that to trigger FC then make sure you're out of range (300 units) or, again, dodge! If you're a thief then a bali venom headshot (pistol skill 4) will go through FC and stun him. as for pets, clones, and minions... Pets can be commanded to stop attacking via f3(?) stowed, swapped, or melded as Soulbeast. minions you can use them to bait it out while you move out of range, or prep to dodge, same with clones. I have no advice to give about team fights, except maybe hope your teammates know how to stow weapon and not spam skills.

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Full counter is fine as it is. If it procs you can answer it by dodging, evading or tping away, and let's be real mate, EVERY class has can do this. If you're in a tf against an sb, be mindful of it and be observant. Granted, there's a lot of things to consider in a tf and it can be a huge visual clutter with nothing but sparks and lights and explosions occurring in your face, but I guarantee you that with more experience and focus you develop your awareness and ability to spot dangerous animations

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Warrior damage in general is over the top for their sustain. One boulder or bull’s charge and it’s good game. Not to mention full counter and the other interrupts/stuns. Meanwhile the warriors health went down to 90% and they still have a block and two endure pains plus two dodges and a greatsword evade. Oh, and shield bash. It’s just dumb that they can be so tanky and do so much damage. And yet again, it’s a point capture game so the whole time you’re trying to kite them while not gaining the cap.

It’s a mindless build that anyone can pick up and do decent with solely due to the regen and constant damage mitigation and avoidance.

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@Conscript.3657 said:Full Counter is the consequence for mindlessly spamming skills.

Not necessarily. If you put down a pulsing AoE (like necro, engineer, guardian, and ele frequently do), you can get full countered without spamming skills. Or, if you have an AI that autoattacks (like mesmer clones and ranger pet), it can also trigger full counter. Warrior and thief are probably the only classes that can reliably avoid triggering FC.

That's not to say I actually have a personal problem with FC's damage. My problem is with everything else attached to FC -- the warrior gets full damage immunity for about a second, warrior generally AoE slows and dazes all targets nearby (unblockable, mind you), all CC effects are negated, warrior gets serious buffs for using it, etc. There's a lot attached to this single skill that is very easy to trigger. The damage is honestly the least of my concerns about FC.

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@ButterPeanut.9746 said:One other piece that others haven't mentioned is that FC really only hits hard if:

  1. It crits
  2. You have high stacks of Attacker's Insight.

So even if you do end up procing full counter, its damage can be minimized by avoiding other key warrior attacks, such as the GS F1 for fury and the dagger F1/#3/#4 for boon rip (which gives attacker's insight).

Easier said than done in team fights, but the in a smaller fight scenario you can still outplay the warrior by avoiding certain abilities other than FC (if you struggle to bait out FC)

The unblockable daze, which has heavy synergy with the rest of the spellbreaker line, is the issue, not the damage. Its a fundamentally broken design that up to 5 people can get hit with an unblockable daze because any of the following reasons:

  • Another player messed up and hit FC
  • There was an pulsing AoE on the ground (literally nothing we can do to stop the SB from just walking into it)
  • There was any AI class in the fight (1/3 of all classes mind you)

The daze should only affect the person that procs FC

@Odik.4587 A defender can be summoned 6 times back to back currently, its not exactly comparable to FC.

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@BeepBoopBap.2840 said:FC should get DH LB 5'd and only hit players that strike it.

I strongly concur with this.

At the very least please consider that some players can actively abuse this to harm their team intentionally leading to the all to prevalent trolling and win trading problems.I can assure you, if I wanted to sabotage a team but make it appear as though I was trying and playing properly to avoid repercussions, given the strength of the skill I would definitely abuse this.I also think it is in poor taste to actively punish the rest of the team because one person is bad or screwed up, if they get hit and go down that is problem enough before forcing everyone to take the hit or pop a cooldown.

In principle an AoE counter should punish the person attacking, and this solves the AI problem as well.

Functionally I don't think it hits to hard. It should sting.

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@Odik.4587 said:I think all this excuses should be thrown at Illusionary defender thread . Would be fun xD

Was thinking the exact same thing.

God forbid any other profession getting a FC like skill on next xpac, the same guys that are defending it will be the first ones to ask for nerfs, same as thieves who defended their huge amount of evades and are now the first ones to ask for mirage to get gutted.

@BMW.2951 said:Oh look another thread where it's nerf that class and not mine!!!!

Learn to play and not attack at specific times. Dodging also helps ;)

Oh the irony...

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@ButterPeanut.9746 said:One other piece that others haven't mentioned is that FC really only hits hard if:
  1. It crits
  2. You have high stacks of Attacker's Insight.

So even if you do end up procing full counter, its damage can be minimized by avoiding other key warrior attacks, such as the GS F1 for fury and the dagger F1/#3/#4 for boon rip (which gives attacker's insight).

Easier said than done in team fights, but the in a smaller fight scenario you can still outplay the warrior by avoiding certain abilities other than FC (if you struggle to bait out FC)

The unblockable daze, which has heavy synergy with the rest of the spellbreaker line, is the issue, not the damage. Its a fundamentally broken design that up to 5 people can get hit with an unblockable daze because any of the following reasons:
  • Another player messed up and hit FC
  • There was an pulsing AoE on the ground (literally nothing we can do to stop the SB from just walking into it)
  • There was any AI class in the fight (1/3 of all classes mind you)

The daze should only affect the person that procs FC

@Odik.4587 A defender can be summoned 6 times back to back currently, its not exactly comparable to FC.

I second this. The damage is not the issue, it's the daze and unblockable that are the problem. I think it should be either one of the two not both.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@ButterPeanut.9746 said:One other piece that others haven't mentioned is that FC really only hits hard if:
  1. It crits
  2. You have high stacks of Attacker's Insight.

So even if you do end up procing full counter, its damage can be minimized by avoiding other key warrior attacks, such as the GS F1 for fury and the dagger F1/#3/#4 for boon rip (which gives attacker's insight).

Easier said than done in team fights, but the in a smaller fight scenario you can still outplay the warrior by avoiding certain abilities other than FC (if you struggle to bait out FC)

The unblockable daze, which has heavy synergy with the rest of the spellbreaker line, is the issue, not the damage. Its a fundamentally broken design that up to 5 people can get hit with an unblockable daze because any of the following reasons:
  • Another player messed up and hit FC
  • There was an pulsing AoE on the ground (literally nothing we can do to stop the SB from just walking into it)
  • There was any AI class in the fight (1/3 of all classes mind you)

The daze should only affect the person that procs FC

@Odik.4587 A defender can be summoned 6 times back to back currently, its not exactly comparable to FC.

Agreed there are other parts of FC that make it strong...but the post was about the damage itself, so that is what I commented on.

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Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain, Dodge Key( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

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@"JayAction.9056" said:Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain, Dodge Key( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

...So you just went into PvE and copied the skill I see..

Cause most of what you listed is the PvE version.

Also, doesn't Dragon Hunter also have Unblockable CC's?I'm wondering where the fascination with unblockable skills all of a sudden came in-Chances are if you hit a warrior with full counter you weren't gonna block anyway. . .

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@Solori.6025 said:

@"JayAction.9056" said:Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:
-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain,
Dodge Key
( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

...So you just went into PvE and copied the skill I see..

Cause most of what you listed is the PvE version.

Also, doesn't Dragon Hunter also have Unblockable CC's?

No all of that is available in the PvP version... except maybe the damage coefficient...

Everything else still stands 100%

Dragon Hunter is arguably OP in the hand's of a few people, but that's not what this thread is about. Also dragon hunter unblockable CC does not do all this extra...

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@JayAction.9056 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:
-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain,
Dodge Key
( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

...So you just went into PvE and copied the skill I see..

Cause most of what you listed is the PvE version.

Also, doesn't Dragon Hunter also have Unblockable CC's?

No all of that is available in the PvP version... except maybe the damage coefficient...

Everything else still stands 100%

. . . .No, you are in fact wrong. Mainly on the condi part and damage coefficient.You also left out quite a bit, and lumped things in without really knowing how it works.For example- Do you know when and why there is evasion on this skill?

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@Solori.6025 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:
-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain,
Dodge Key
( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

...So you just went into PvE and copied the skill I see..

Cause most of what you listed is the PvE version.

Also, doesn't Dragon Hunter also have Unblockable CC's?

No all of that is available in the PvP version... except maybe the damage coefficient...

Everything else still stands 100%

. . . .No, you are in fact wrong. Mainly on the condi part and damage coefficient.You also left out quite a bit, and lumped things in without really knowing how it works.For example- Do you know when and why there is evasion on this skill?

Straw man argument dude.

Everything I said is true. ok 3 condis instead of 5.

It still basically a 1.5 second invuln on 12 second CD, and if you know how to count and press you keys effectively you can go ludicrous amounts of time not taking any damage chaining this skill with others. And before you ask me why have I not done this myself, I have...

Hear my advice for you; just scream full counter out loud when you press it and maybe you will top 10. That's your problem.

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@JayAction.9056 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:
-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain,
Dodge Key
( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

...So you just went into PvE and copied the skill I see..

Cause most of what you listed is the PvE version.

Also, doesn't Dragon Hunter also have Unblockable CC's?

No all of that is available in the PvP version... except maybe the damage coefficient...

Everything else still stands 100%

. . . .No, you are in fact wrong. Mainly on the condi part and damage coefficient.You also left out quite a bit, and lumped things in without really knowing how it works.For example- Do you know when and why there is evasion on this skill?

Straw man argument dude.

Everything I said is true. ok 3 condis instead of 5.

It still basically a 1.5 second invuln on 12 second CD, and if you know how to count and press you keys effectively you can go ludicrous amounts of time not taking any damage chaining this skill with others. And before you ask me why have I not done this myself, I have...

Hear my advice for you; just scream full counter out loud when you press it and maybe you will top 10. That's your problem.

It's not really straw man if you present a skill incorrectly and use that MISINFORMATION as justification for your argument.You presented misinformation, I called you on it.That simple.This skill copies 3 condies- has a 1.5 damage coefficient ( and only buffed higher through trait investment..like almost every other class does for skills they want to deal damage)and gives you evade frames at the end for .5 seconds while your character throws its arms around screaming on of the horribly cringe worthy catchphrases.

Also- I find it really hard to believe you did anything with a warrior, if I am having to correct you on common knowledge about the skill and it's interactions (namely the significant nerfs that toned it down substantially),especially when some of these skill nerfs have been in game since November . . . .

At least you got the rest right?

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@Conscript.3657 said:An unblockable low range AoE which has an obvious sound cue and visualization is good, you're welcome.

If you as a warrior do not know how to cast it either in aoes, mid at enemy animation or when being attacked by various AIs, you have no fucking business playing a warrior.

And no skill should be a block, a daze, copy 3 condis, has a 300 aoe, deal damage and be on a fucking 12 sec CD.

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@Solori.6025 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:
-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain,
Dodge Key
( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

...So you just went into PvE and copied the skill I see..

Cause most of what you listed is the PvE version.

Also, doesn't Dragon Hunter also have Unblockable CC's?

No all of that is available in the PvP version... except maybe the damage coefficient...

Everything else still stands 100%

. . . .No, you are in fact wrong. Mainly on the condi part and damage coefficient.You also left out quite a bit, and lumped things in without really knowing how it works.For example- Do you know when and why there is evasion on this skill?

Straw man argument dude.

Everything I said is true. ok 3 condis instead of 5.

It still basically a 1.5 second invuln on 12 second CD, and if you know how to count and press you keys effectively you can go ludicrous amounts of time not taking any damage chaining this skill with others. And before you ask me why have I not done this myself, I have...

Hear my advice for you; just scream full counter out loud when you press it and maybe you will top 10. That's your problem.

It's not really straw man if you present a skill incorrectly and use that MISINFORMATION as justification for your argument.You presented misinformation, I called you on it.That simple.This skill copies 3 condies- has a 1.5 damage coefficient ( and only buffed higher through trait investment..like almost every other class does for skills they want to deal damage)and gives you evade frames at the end for .5 seconds while your character throws its arms around screaming on of the horribly cringe worthy catchphrases.

Also- I find it really hard to believe you did anything with a warrior, if I am having to correct you on common knowledge about the skill and it's interactions (namely the significant nerfs that toned it down substantially),especially when some of these skill nerfs have been in game since November . . . .

At least you got the rest right?

" I find it really hard to believe you did anything with a warrior, if I am having to correct you on common knowledge about the skill and it's interactions (namely the significant nerfs that toned it down substantially),especially when some of these skill nerfs have been in game since November . . . ."

I main Rev now. I mained warr pre HOT and 1v2 people on it until it was stupid weak in season 1. My bad, I don't constantly remember all the minor nerfs that happened to the skill

Without playing warr in 2 years, I pick it up and immediately perform just as good as I do Rev (much harder to do anything with).

Listen just take my advice bro;just scream full counter out loud when you press it and maybe you will top 10. That's your problem.

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@JayAction.9056 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:
-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain,
Dodge Key
( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

...So you just went into PvE and copied the skill I see..

Cause most of what you listed is the PvE version.

Also, doesn't Dragon Hunter also have Unblockable CC's?

No all of that is available in the PvP version... except maybe the damage coefficient...

Everything else still stands 100%

. . . .No, you are in fact wrong. Mainly on the condi part and damage coefficient.You also left out quite a bit, and lumped things in without really knowing how it works.For example- Do you know when and why there is evasion on this skill?

Straw man argument dude.

Everything I said is true. ok 3 condis instead of 5.

It still basically a 1.5 second invuln on 12 second CD, and if you know how to count and press you keys effectively you can go ludicrous amounts of time not taking any damage chaining this skill with others. And before you ask me why have I not done this myself, I have...

Hear my advice for you; just scream full counter out loud when you press it and maybe you will top 10. That's your problem.

It's not really straw man if you present a skill incorrectly and use that MISINFORMATION as justification for your argument.You presented misinformation, I called you on it.That simple.This skill copies 3 condies- has a 1.5 damage coefficient ( and only buffed higher through trait investment..like almost every other class does for skills they want to deal damage)and gives you evade frames at the end for .5 seconds while your character throws its arms around screaming on of the horribly cringe worthy catchphrases.

Also- I find it really hard to believe you did anything with a warrior, if I am having to correct you on common knowledge about the skill and it's interactions (namely the significant nerfs that toned it down substantially),especially when some of these skill nerfs have been in game since November . . . .

At least you got the rest right?

" I find it really hard to believe you did anything with a warrior, if I am having to correct you on common knowledge about the skill and it's interactions (namely the significant nerfs that toned it down substantially),especially when some of these skill nerfs have been in game since November . . . ."

I main Rev now. I mained warr pre HOT and 1v2 people on it until it was stupid weak in season 1. My bad, I don't constantly remember all the
minor
nerfs that happened to the skill

That's fair- but you should do research on the skill next time first..

Listen just take my advice bro;
just scream full counter out loud when you press it and maybe you will top 10. That's your problem.

No I refuse! Mesmer main for life > _ <

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