Full Counter hits way too hard

[Crinn.7864]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Dying to FC usually means you made a mistake.

Full Counter activates instantly, any sensible warrior will only activate FC when their opponent is about to complete a cast, thus guaranteeing that the FC is proc'ed immediately with the opponent having no time to cancel.

There is no excuse for a warrior to ever fail a FC.

[Xca.9721]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Xca.9721 said:You guys realize that full counter only deals additional damage, transfers conditions and gives resistance by using the major grandmaster trait? And it has to be procced of course. Besides Spellbreaker hits like a wet noodle, the rampage skills have an obvious tell and can be easily avoided.

Btw I dont play spellbreaker myself anymore cause its kitten boring. Warrior in general is kitten boring since they removed berserker from spvp.

You do realize that its the unblockable AoE daze that can be procced simply by walking into an AoE that is the problem, not hte damage, right? You don't have to trait it to get that unblockable daze

Its just that ppl have been complaining about that stuff assuming all of this comes natural and without a traitline. Btw even if you procc the full counter, u can still dodge it.

[Xca.9721]

@Mutaatti.2789 said:

@Xca.9721 said:You guys realize that full counter only deals additional damage, transfers conditions and gives resistance by using the major grandmaster trait? And it has to be procced of course. Besides Spellbreaker hits like a wet noodle, the rampage skills have an obvious tell and can be easily avoided.

Btw I dont play spellbreaker myself anymore cause its kitten boring. Warrior in general is kitten boring since they removed berserker from spvp.

1. The only grandmaster trait useful in PvP.
2. It can be procced by AoE, clone, pet, projectile fired 2 secs ago, NPC (lord, beast) just about anything.
3. Rampage skills are easy to tell.
4. You said it yourself. You dont play warrior anymore, because it's boring. Boring because it's so easy against lower level players to 1v1 or even bunker 1v2.

Warrior shouldn't be unkillable 1v1 bunker. Otherwise team with 2 best warriors win everytime. (Talking about tourneys).

Well thats the current role of Spellbreaker, hold nodes while 1vX. You dont do much damage but are really tanky. Not the way a warrior should be played imo.

[Vaga.5174]

Although i do not think FC is necessarily 'overpowered', considering most classes have something in their arsenal of similar strength, it would be fine if the damage was reduced (And by quite a bit). The point of the skill is to be more of a defensive burst, or a utility. Be it to set up another burst/mitigate damage/proc prot/interrupt to strip boons.

Warrior already has so much damage in other areas that a fairly substantial damage nerf to this particular skill would be fine.

Yes it can be dodged, yes it can be avoided, but as people have said, this become far less easy when you are in a team fight, and hitting 5 targets because of 1 players mistake for a fairly substantial amount of damage/interruption/boon strip/possible (low maintenance) condis is a bit much.

But i think the unblockable interrupt is fine so long as the damage is reduced.

In the same breath of all the above though, its nice to have a aoe cleave for the 100 mesmer clones flying around ^^

[viquing.8254]

As an op mirage I don't found FC op but on a side note,this king of argument :

Full Counter is the consequence for mindlessly spamming skills.Make me remember that they remove clones on death traits because of thoses mindless people who spam cleave/aoe. And it was not only one skill but an entire part of the three main mesmer's mecanics (fantasms, clones, shatter.).

[kipthelip.5802]

Something has to change further with the ability I dont care what but something. But I disagree about the damage its too much regardless of what they change it has to go down. There is not enough skill involved in using it that it should hit a non glass cannon build for 5-6k with the cooldown it has and the other things it does. Much less damage then that plus all the other things it does is plenty of "punishment" for so called ability spamming. I also don't want to hear the Warrior supremecy at duels is supposed to be a thing. I believe that is bad game design and a total refutation of how this game was supposed to work. If Warrior abilities to win duels goes down and it makes them less viable then Im all for buffs in other aspects. But dont defend op aspects of the class by saying x is all the keeps Warriors viable! That has never stopped an op ability from getting nerfed in this history of pvp MMORPGs. A-net knows its a problematic ability they have already nerfed but unfortunately they use toe nail clippers instead of ball peen hammers for starters most of the time.

[spartan.9421]

@Vova.2640 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Vova.2640 said:I couple nights ago in wvw, I used a meteor shower into an enemy zerg and got hit for 11k with full counter.Fun stuff.

Let it be forever enshrined in this thread that a staff elementalist casted a three second attack into a zerg in wvw, close enough to himself that he could be crit by a warrior using full counter.

You were already dead my guy. Warrior or not.

???It was basically a max range meteor shower on top of an enemy zerg to pressure downs.I don't even know where the warrior was all I know is I got insta-down, looked into my combat log and I see an 11k full counter.If you cast meteor Shower at the max range of 1,200 units there is no way a full counter with a range of 300 units killed you. something else killed you, or you're lying.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Dying to FC usually means you made a mistake.

Full Counter activates instantly, any sensible warrior will only activate FC when their opponent is about to complete a cast, thus guaranteeing that the FC is proc'ed immediately with the opponent having no time to cancel.

There is no excuse for a warrior to ever fail a FC.

Any sensible person fighting SB knows to dodge FC and/or bait it out.> @"JayAction.9056" said:

Can we stop using "it has an obvious tell" as an argument????

Every skill in this game has an "obvious tell" if you know what to look for.

Full counter is ridiculous.

2.0 damage coefficient on a skill that is:-Aoe Daze-Aoe moveable block-Self Stability-Evade-100% Damage reduction

Has ability to also:-Transfer 5 conditions to target and grant resistance with a damage boost

It's basically a 1.5 second invuln every 12 seconds (used to be 8).

The handful of good warriors in this game are immortal in everything except a 1v3 because you can avoid near all damage cycling this crap with GS #3, Shield Block, Double Endure Pain, Dodge Key( bold because everybody forgets this exists), & balanced stance. Then they don't even have down time to cast a heal skill (heal signet lmfao) and it's just stupid.

Pro Tip: Scream full counter out loud every time you press it for maximum effectiveness.

Sure, every skill has an obvious tell, but some are more obvious than others. A giant yellow glowy circle is one of the more obvious ones.

It's 2.0 in Pve and 1.5 in PvP.

-An aoe daze of half a second, which is nothing.-It's not technically a block, it's damage reduction for ONE hit. (The hit that triggers it.)-Self stability of two seconds, long enough for full counter to trigger, and that's it.-Evade for half a second less than a normal dodge.-100% damage reduction for only the hit that triggers it, then it switches to the evade!-Only transfers condis three IF traited, (five in PvE) and grants a whopping two seconds of resistance.

This skill is meant to punish you for triggering it, which it does. It's not OP, and it has counterplay.

Protip: play a class and learn it before complaining on the forums for maximum effectiveness.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@OriOri.8724 said:The unblockable daze, which has heavy synergy with the rest of the spellbreaker line, is the issue, not the damage.

Daze is there to interrupt people freecasting within 300r of the Warrior, or precasting attacks to hit after the warrior does FC, since his anims are locked during the cast and any subsequent hit. Removing it would hamstring the class and punish the warrior for using FC for teams timing their attacks, rather than punishing the team for not paying attention to where they're standing.

[OriOri.8724]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:The unblockable daze, which has heavy synergy with the rest of the spellbreaker line, is the issue, not the damage.

Daze is there to interrupt people freecasting within 300r of the Warrior, or precasting attacks to hit after the warrior does FC, since his anims are locked during the cast and any subsequent hit. Removing it would hamstring the class and punish the warrior for using FC for teams timing their attacks, rather than punishing the team for not paying attention to where they're standing.

Option A - Punish entire team because 1 person made a mistake

Option B - Punish a single player when the other team coordinates an attack against that one player

Which option is healthier here? Because literally every warrior in this thread is trying to argue that option A is the healthier option, when option B is what happens in a well balanced game.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"OriOri.8724" said:Option A - Punish entire team because 1 person made a mistake

Option B - Punish a single player when the other team coordinates an attack against that one player

Which option is healthier here? Because literally every warrior in this thread is trying to argue that option A is the healthier option, when option B is what happens in a well balanced game.

That depends on situation. I can understand the frustration of being dazed/interrupted because of someone else's mistake, but consider that this happens in a small radius and that narrowing it to hit the entity that originated the attack would cripple spellbreakers versus mesmers, rangers, and other entities with adds without any invested effort in counterplay. FC has been nerfed multiple times because "teammates don't know when to stop hitting, drop AoEs at the wrong time". At what point are we going to stop hitting FC and start blaming people for smashing their face against it?

Also let's be reasonable here. in any major situation where the range of full counter is extremely important (on point), you will at most have two people fighting the spellbreaker in any proper rotation, unless there is a snowball in which case the warrior will die before he downs anybody. I don't think it takes much effort to give yourself twelve seconds to lay into a warrior before quickly moving out of 300r and letting your teammate look for FC before coming in again. Its being made out like the warrior is winning 5v1 because of a daze.

And if you're 1v1ing, that job is even easier. So I fail to see why we're continuing to shave FC to compensate for rallybots.

[otto.5684]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:The unblockable daze, which has heavy synergy with the rest of the spellbreaker line, is the issue, not the damage.

Daze is there to interrupt people freecasting within 300r of the Warrior, or precasting attacks to hit after the warrior does FC, since his anims are locked during the cast and any subsequent hit. Removing it would hamstring the class and punish the warrior for using FC for teams timing their attacks, rather than punishing the team for not paying attention to where they're standing.

What?! How the fuck is blocking all attacks heading your way, dealing damage and copying 3 condis in 300 aoe is a “hamper” without a daze again?!

[sephiroth.4217]

Pitchforks are on Warrior this week it appears...

Of all the things, it's Full Counter...

Here's some things that even a scrub like myself can do:

• Don't attack a Warrior using Full counter
• Use unblockable attacks
• Proc Full Counter from range
• Use Stability if you fight melee range
• Use blinding attacks
• Apply Weakness

[Sampson.2403]

Whenever i fight a spellbreaker i don't feel like i am engaging into pvp with another player. I feel like im fighting some PvE boss and trying to kill the boss solo for a challenge and only asking to join a group for help when im unable to do it alone fast enough.

Outside of support roles like firebrand, i see no reason for these stalemate, sustainy as hell dps role builds. Im so happy druids heal got nerfed.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

I dont think it hits to hard i think it has to short a cool down for what it does....12-15 seconds to have a solid invulnerability mixed in what warrior already has with evades, vigor, weapons skills, and endure pains, i would like to see full counter on a 25-30 second and a traited 20-25 second cd...i think this is fair cuz right now you can just chain everything together to have really good survivability.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:I dont think it hits to hard i think it has to short a cool down for what it does....12-15 seconds to have a solid invulnerability mixed in what warrior already has with evades, vigor, weapons skills, and endure pains, i would like to see full counter on a 25-30 second and a traited 20-25 second cd...i think this is fair cuz right now you can just chain everything together to have really good survivability.

how to kill an elite trait 101

[Math.5123]

@sephiroth.4217 said:Pitchforks are on Warrior this week it appears...

Of all the things, it's Full Counter...

Here's some things that even a scrub like myself can do:

• Don't attack a Warrior using Full counter
• Use unblockable attacks
• Proc Full Counter from range
• Use Stability if you fight melee range
• Use blinding attacks
• Apply Weakness

Unblockable attacks procs it.Not all classes have access to range skills or gap closersBlind doesn't work because they get resistance on proc.Weakness doesn't work because they get resistance on proc.Stability only saves you from the .25 second daze, which is the least issue with the skill.

But hey, at least a scrub like you can do all those things.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@otto.5684 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:The unblockable daze, which has heavy synergy with the rest of the spellbreaker line, is the issue, not the damage.

Daze is there to interrupt people freecasting within 300r of the Warrior, or precasting attacks to hit after the warrior does FC, since his anims are locked during the cast and any subsequent hit. Removing it would hamstring the class and punish the warrior for using FC for teams timing their attacks, rather than punishing the team for not paying attention to where they're standing.

What?! How the kitten is blocking all attacks heading your way, dealing damage and copying 3 condis in 300 aoe is a “hamper” without a daze again?!

Read the post right above the one you made.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

So i feel like this thread is full of many mixed messages

1. its not the unblockable daze its the unblockable damage...
2. its not the unblockable damage its the unblockable daze
3. its neither of them, its the 3 condition reflect, tiny stability, evade, protect and little resistance
4. its not 3 its the short cool down
5. the cooldown is fine, but the damage is too high

I mean how can it be nothing and everything at the same time guys

[Eddbopkins.2630]

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:I dont think it hits to hard i think it has to short a cool down for what it does....12-15 seconds to have a solid invulnerability mixed in what warrior already has with evades, vigor, weapons skills, and endure pains, i would like to see full counter on a 25-30 second and a traited 20-25 second cd...i think this is fair cuz right now you can just chain everything together to have really good survivability.

how to kill an elite trait 101

If u dont think an invulnerablity every 12-15 seconds is alittle op then your thought process for balance is very skewed in the wrong direction.

[sephiroth.4217]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:Pitchforks are on Warrior this week it appears...

Of all the things, it's Full Counter...

Here's some things that even a scrub like myself can do:

• Don't attack a Warrior using Full counter
• Use unblockable attacks
• Proc Full Counter from range
• Use Stability if you fight melee range
• Use blinding attacks
• Apply Weakness

Unblockable attacks procs it.Not all classes have access to range skills or gap closersBlind doesn't work because they get resistance on proc.Weakness doesn't work because they get resistance on proc.Stability only saves you from the .25 second daze, which is the least issue with the skill.

But hey, at least a scrub like you can do all those things.

Yup a scrub like me can handle full counter fine... Makes me think that this is a bronze tier problem/thread.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Warrior already has alot of invulns having full counter invuln every 12-15 seconds is to much. I feel it should have a damage reduction instead like next time they f2, there next damage taken is reduced by 50%

[mortrialus.3062]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:I dont think it hits to hard i think it has to short a cool down for what it does....12-15 seconds to have a solid invulnerability mixed in what warrior already has with evades, vigor, weapons skills, and endure pains, i would like to see full counter on a 25-30 second and a traited 20-25 second cd...i think this is fair cuz right now you can just chain everything together to have really good survivability.

how to kill an elite trait 101

If u dont think an invulnerablity every 12-15 seconds is alittle op then your thought process for balance is very skewed in the wrong direction.

There are plenty of non OP weapon kits that basically what Fullcounter does. Warrior mace as a similar block>counter attack. Mesmer Scepter has a similar block>counter attack. Ranger greatsword has a similar block> counter attack.

Full counter is perfectly fine, and I say this as a Mirage that pretty much by default almost cannot help but trigger every single time it because of illusions. If there's any issue with Spellbreaker it's probably Adrenal Health and Heal Signet combined. I think Spellbreaker should have a lot of sustain built into it but I do feel that fights vs Spellbreaker shouldn't just completely stall out for the rest of the match. Just look at the Mist Champions tournament. In every single round whether it was Spellbreaker vs. Spellbreaker or Spellbreaker vs Condi Mirage or any other match up the fights just stall out for the entirety of the match. Sustain is one thing, but I do feel like these types of match ups should ultimately have a definitive winner.

[Derm.4932]

SB sustain is way over the top for the amount of damage it can do. I really don't mind full counter but rousing resilience + demolishers amulet is absurd at the moment. Good warriors can stall a 1v1 basically forever and a 1vX for a long time but can also burst you down relatively easily. It's a straight upgrade of scrapper/druid. In an actual 1v1 it's very difficult to find an opening without being able to use CCs. You're relegated to using kite and burst which often requires you to give up node and only ever really work if you're a holo or mirage. If there was one spec that was the reason why B Tier specs aren't viable it's spellbreaker. It shuts down hot and b tier pof specs harder than even mirage.

[apharma.3741]

Well I mean if you compare SB vs most meta builds, all balanced.

If you compare it to the generally much healthier state of the game in the past it’s flat out overpowered.

It all depends on the perspective you look at it from and the agenda you’re trying to push. Some want warrior to remain like this, some want buffs, some want nerfs, some want to not think about fighting it however often there are legitimate reasons to both sides.

At this point I’d love a hard reset back to the specialisation patch (yes with skills and trait reversed to that time) with elite specs then redesigned to not be an upgrade but rather an alternative trait line, if you get a new mechanic the traits are worse than other lines. The game was a lot more fun back then, you didn’t go 100-0 without the other person having some risk in the build and the entire game wasn’t like balancing on a knife edge the whole time.

[pah.4931]

Full Counter is an AWESOMELY designed skill for most 1v1 situations. Perfect. And especially perfect in a game other than GW2.

Unfortunately, this is GW2 and there are just way too many AoE spammy abilities that trigger FC without the player having a chance to react (especially in group fights when someone else triggers it).