Full Counter hits way too hard

[xp eke xp.6724]

1. Every elite specialisation help the klasses to be stronger in some points they already were good.1.1: for warrior this meaned that berserk helped to be more from the spamming warrior that shoud never hit someone, but if he does it will hurt. If not he forces you to use much cds.

   1.2: now to a second playstile the warrior already had -> duell or punish builds. Does someone remember the old mace/sword builds? On that playstille we got the spellbreaker. Means if you spam or just don't play around him, that build has good chances to punish that. On the other way he was too slow, with spellbreaker he is fast enough to change place but still can't finish well

Now on the point we understand why they designed spellbreaker on that way, we can get an good overview on the mechanicals and changes for the class.

• He is less spamm able if you can play around! But even if you don't do that he has the unbuffed f-skills, means he still can't hit all. So cause you don't play around fullcounter you will loose more cds, hp or you try to abuse his low range.
• the booncoruppt is nice, but at least it's only to help him on the concept => punish bad play
• thats it. He has the one strong punishment and all other points are as weak as before. He has only passive heal, all old weapons don't have saver hits and the dagger gives the warrior a stronger mace on mainhand and on offhand a bether axe... His new skills aren't that useful, only Featherfood grace is just a bersek stance with stunbreak, still bad condiclean, not much stability, and a midground- lowground impact on teamfights.

At all fullcounter is strong, on the other side without it he can't hit any player hard enough to fit his role. All on one card.. outside of that he has nothing else and a core warrior will win if the spellbreaker do one mistake.

Maybe arenanet will have an bether idea to change spellbreaker on a lower risk/ reward playstile, but atm we have to live with that.

[Kostis.1826]

FC has already been nerfed heavily...twice... If it's nerfed to the point of insignificance there will be no point to play SB in PvP, or war in general for that matter...

[OriOri.8724]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:I dont think it hits to hard i think it has to short a cool down for what it does....12-15 seconds to have a solid invulnerability mixed in what warrior already has with evades, vigor, weapons skills, and endure pains, i would like to see full counter on a 25-30 second and a traited 20-25 second cd...i think this is fair cuz right now you can just chain everything together to have really good survivability.

how to kill an elite trait 101

If u dont think an invulnerablity every 12-15 seconds is alittle op then your thought process for balance is very skewed in the wrong direction.

There are plenty of non OP weapon kits that basically what Fullcounter does. Warrior mace as a similar block>counter attack. Mesmer Scepter has a similar block>counter attack. Ranger greatsword has a similar block> counter attack.

Full counter is perfectly fine, and I say this as a Mirage that pretty much by default almost cannot help but trigger every single time it because of illusions. If there's any issue with Spellbreaker it's probably Adrenal Health and Heal Signet combined. I think Spellbreaker should have a lot of sustain built into it but I do feel that fights vs Spellbreaker shouldn't just completely stall out for the rest of the match. Just look at the Mist Champions tournament. In every single round whether it was Spellbreaker vs. Spellbreaker or Spellbreaker vs Condi Mirage or any other match up the fights just stall out for the entirety of the match. Sustain is one thing, but I do feel like these types of match ups should ultimately have a definitive winner.

Regular blocks can be countered with unblockable attacks, FC still blocks all of the damage you would receive. Those combos don't provide AoE, unblockable daze when you land them, FC does. Those combos cannot be traited with insane synergy to also then remove boons, damage foes because boons were removed etc.... In short, those combos, and others like them, are not comparable to FC.

[mortrialus.3062]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:I dont think it hits to hard i think it has to short a cool down for what it does....12-15 seconds to have a solid invulnerability mixed in what warrior already has with evades, vigor, weapons skills, and endure pains, i would like to see full counter on a 25-30 second and a traited 20-25 second cd...i think this is fair cuz right now you can just chain everything together to have really good survivability.

how to kill an elite trait 101

If u dont think an invulnerablity every 12-15 seconds is alittle op then your thought process for balance is very skewed in the wrong direction.

There are plenty of non OP weapon kits that basically what Fullcounter does. Warrior mace as a similar block>counter attack. Mesmer Scepter has a similar block>counter attack. Ranger greatsword has a similar block> counter attack.

Full counter is perfectly fine, and I say this as a Mirage that pretty much by default almost cannot help but trigger every single time it because of illusions. If there's any issue with Spellbreaker it's probably Adrenal Health and Heal Signet combined. I think Spellbreaker should have a lot of sustain built into it but I do feel that fights vs Spellbreaker shouldn't just completely stall out for the rest of the match. Just look at the Mist Champions tournament. In every single round whether it was Spellbreaker vs. Spellbreaker or Spellbreaker vs Condi Mirage or any other match up the fights just stall out for the entirety of the match. Sustain is one thing, but I do feel like these types of match ups should ultimately have a definitive winner.

Regular blocks can be countered with unblockable attacks, FC still blocks all of the damage you would receive. Those combos don't provide AoE, unblockable daze when you land them, FC does. Those combos cannot be traited with insane synergy to also then remove boons, damage foes because boons were removed etc.... In short, those combos, and others like them, are not comparable to FC.

The attack still has a very telegraphed attack when triggered and the range itself is limited. I really can't recall the last time I was actually tagged with Full Counter.

[Lighter.5631]

@BeepBoopBap.2840 said:

@Conscript.3657 said:Full Counter is the consequence for mindlessly spamming skills.

GG what every pro warrior says.

But am I supposed to get punished for someone else hitting Full Counter?

yes, you are supposed to get punished for your teammates mistake because it's a team game and the ultimate punishment a teammate's mistake can give you is a losejust like you would blame your teammate for shooting at enemy genji reflecting and killing you in the process in overwatch and not cry on the forum to have the reflect function removed

[Falan.1839]

I don't think it hits too hard. Yes, it is sometimes impossible to avoid triggering FC if you have clones, offensive wells or skills you can't cancel anymore in time, but even if you trigger it, the skill is fairly easy to dodge. The tell ist quite obvious, both graphically and acustically and you have enough time to dodge. I'd say it's one of the easiest skills in the game to dodge, so I don't mind it hitting hard.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@BeepBoopBap.2840 said:

@"Conscript.3657" said:Full Counter is the consequence for mindlessly spamming skills.

GG what every pro warrior says.

But am I supposed to get punished for someone else hitting Full Counter?

yes, you are supposed to get punished for your teammates mistake because it's a team game and the ultimate punishment a teammate's mistake can give you is a lose

Then why did DH LB 5 get changed to only CC targets that get hit by the final ring instead of CC all enemies? And it had a higher CD, a much longer cast time, and was generally harder to use in active combat than Full Counter.

Warriors hiding behind that faulty logic lol, I'm sure you were all dancing for joy when DH LB 5 got that nerf too since warrior was in the shit back then.

See April 19, 2016 patch on this page:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Ward

[xp eke xp.6724]

Cause lb 5 on dh is for movecontroll and fc is for punish...His rolle is completely different, a dh wants to get controll over the enermie movement and can split teams very well, but sb want to go for duells and force the +1..

Means lb 5 would be far less counterable if they change it back but also it already is a huge reward if you time it on right time/ enemies don't react..

maybe fc needs a mechanic with a higher casttime, but then pls buff all useless weapons and horrible defence from warrior at the same time....

Just remember: fc is a all in skill to fix all issues a warrior has. If u nerf it you need to buff something that makes him still playable as a duellist or it ends like on berserk: he is only there to eat dmg and hold as long as possible without a chance to do more. He ended from a spamming hard hitting berserk to a useless punching bag

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@xp eke xp.6724 said:Just remember: fc is a all in skill to fix all issues a warrior has.

Yeah that sounds like healthy game design /s

Cause lb 5 on dh is for movecontroll and fc is for punish...

That makes absolutely no sense.

[xp eke xp.6724]

Lb splits teams up even if you don't hit with the ring and maybe u can separate players.

[Dralor.3701]

@apharma.3741 said:Well I mean if you compare SB vs most meta builds, all balanced.

If you compare it to the generally much healthier state of the game in the past it’s flat out overpowered.

It all depends on the perspective you look at it from and the agenda you’re trying to push. Some want warrior to remain like this, some want buffs, some want nerfs, some want to not think about fighting it however often there are legitimate reasons to both sides.

At this point I’d love a hard reset back to the specialisation patch (yes with skills and trait reversed to that time) with elite specs then redesigned to not be an upgrade but rather an alternative trait line, if you get a new mechanic the traits are worse than other lines. The game was a lot more fun back then, you didn’t go 100-0 without the other person having some risk in the build and the entire game wasn’t like balancing on a knife edge the whole time.

100% this. With scourge, mesmer and fb being what they currently are sb doesn’t feel out of whack.

The meta specs just so greatly outperform the old specs.

[Derm.4932]

@Dralor.3701 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Well I mean if you compare SB vs most meta builds, all balanced.

If you compare it to the generally much healthier state of the game in the past it’s flat out overpowered.

It all depends on the perspective you look at it from and the agenda you’re trying to push. Some want warrior to remain like this, some want buffs, some want nerfs, some want to not think about fighting it however often there are legitimate reasons to both sides.

At this point I’d love a hard reset back to the specialisation patch (yes with skills and trait reversed to that time) with elite specs then redesigned to not be an upgrade but rather an alternative trait line, if you get a new mechanic the traits are worse than other lines. The game was a lot more fun back then, you didn’t go 100-0 without the other person having some risk in the build and the entire game wasn’t like balancing on a knife edge the whole time.

100% this. With scourge, mesmer and fb being what they currently are sb doesn’t feel out of whack.

The meta specs just so greatly outperform the old specs.

Those of us who want SB nerfed usually want those classes nerfed too though. There's a high enough amount of complaints against Mesmer and Scourge that I would be very surprised if the next pvp balance patch didn't nerf them substantially. We aren't singling out warrior in particular, we want the same for the trio of meta side noders(mesmer/holo/sb) that don't allow anything else to be played successfully. Everyone should be concerned about the state spellbreaker/holo is going to be in after the Mesmer nerfs. To that end Anet should nerf all three of them to varying levels in the same patch.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

Thing is, full counter is probably the most easily countered move in the game, it not going off is where most of the spellbreakers strength comes from, but is also not the reason for it causing the match stalls. Its problems lie in the core traits which synergize with the spellbreaker play style.In otherwords, warrior core may need a revamp to alleviate the problem (as nerfing the skills will just lead to killing off the few who play core war)

[Dralor.3701]

People say don’t attack 1v1 but all the passive regent is ticking, it’s a really bad argument especially if the warriors only goal is to stall.

Would also agree 4-5 classes need toning down. Holo/sb/fb could be a big problem if only scourge and Mesmer are nerfed.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@Dralor.3701 said:People say don’t attack 1v1 but all the passive regent is ticking, it’s a really bad argument especially if the warriors only goal is to stall.

Would also agree 4-5 classes need toning down. Holo/sb/fb could be a big problem if only scourge and Mesmer are nerfed.

OH NO how can anyone deal with 344 health regen!

[Dralor.3701]

So you’re saying sb doesn’t have strong passive healing? ?

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@Dralor.3701 said:So you’re saying sb doesn’t have strong passive healing? ?

not since the nerfs.

[Dralor.3701]

It isn’t that bad, obviously it’s worse but it’s still amazing compared to what many others have.

Have you tried playing other classes recently? Aside from Mesmer playing a sb feels like easymode 1v1.

[FyzE.3472]

I just wish that the animation bug would be fixed. Hold long it was from POF launch already?

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Hitting hard is fine, but some things on it is not fine. Why is the CD so low? For such a powerful skill, the CD should be noticeably higher. Why is it unblockable?

[xp eke xp.6724]

Im fine with a higher cd or not stackable cd reductions!

Unblockable is a warrior and rev unique mechanical

[Math.5123]

@xp eke xp.6724 said:Im fine with a higher cd or not stackable cd reductions!

Unblockable is a warrior and rev unique mechanical

And ranger, and mesmer, and thief. Oh, and Necro marks. Oh, and prime light beam.

[Chorazin.4107]

Yeah it's way over the top, but any more so than Sand Shade?

[Legatus.3608]

@kipthelip.5802 said:This skill, even after some nerfs, remains one of the most over budget abilities in the game. Why should such a low skill ability hit me routinely for around 5K and thats with 2,600 toughness and scrapper runes.

@"Blocki.4931" said:"Low skill ability"

Sure, but have you thought about not attacking him so it ends up doing nothing? He's gonna block damage anyway and you just end up damaging yourself.

It's a counter and that's what it does. One of the few abilities that deal damage that are reliable, Warrior needed one of those for sure.

You know what, I agree with you 100%. If you get hit by this ability it's your own fault.

Having said that, the same was also true of DJ (an ability which I died to today and didn't immediately open my browser and create a forum post about it - so I know at least the forum whining isn't hard-coded into the ability), but they "reworked" deadeye into a useless pile of shit, so fuck this skill. Nuke it from orbit just like all the other well-balanced skills that are easily countered.

Except mesmer, give them an ability that teleports to any conquest point instantly and insta-downs everyone around it while also providing 5 seconds damage immunity because reasons.

[Math.5123]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@kipthelip.5802 said:This skill, even after some nerfs, remains one of the most over budget abilities in the game. Why should such a low skill ability hit me routinely for around 5K and thats with 2,600 toughness and scrapper runes.

@"Blocki.4931" said:"Low skill ability"

Sure, but have you thought about not attacking him so it ends up doing nothing? He's gonna block damage anyway and you just end up damaging yourself.

It's a counter and that's what it does. One of the few abilities that deal damage that are reliable, Warrior needed one of those for sure.

You know what, I agree with you 100%. If you get hit by this ability it's your own fault.

Having said that, the same was also true of DJ (an ability which I died to today and didn't immediately open my browser and create a forum post about it - so I know at least the forum whining isn't hard-coded into the ability), but they "reworked" deadeye into a useless pile of kitten, so kitten this skill. Nuke it from orbit just like all the other well-balanced skills that are easily countered.

Except mesmer, give them an ability that teleports to any conquest point instantly and insta-downs everyone around it while also providing 5 seconds damage immunity because reasons.

To be fair, deaths judgement was about as well balanced as on release DH. It didn't have a place in competitive comps, but it demolished new players.