wvw survey

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

I have many friends in the game, who are PvE only. I could never convince them to WvW (same for raids). We regularly talk about the reasons why they don't come. I can list them below:

• Casual players (due to busy real life or else). They want to have it easy and play relaxed. Nothing more. For them, WvW and raids (even fractals too) are activities that require more efforts: No way.
• Not enough gold and material to equip properly. It is a direct consequence of previous point. Their casual way to play means low earnings. They don't have much gold and not much material. They can't afford any high level equipment and simply don't want to bother about.
• Scheduling. Due to busy real life, they can't commit. Side note from my side: I can't blame them. I have myself a busy real life and at times, it is true that it is hard to stick to scheduling.
• Communication style too rude. They understand that commanders need to be straight in what they say while fighting, but they come in the game to have fun, and to get blamed in public is not part of it.
• Don't want to use Discord/TS3. Many different reasons for that, no need to list them.
• Don't want to be judged on their performances. They don't pretend they are good players - as a matter of fact, they even acknowledge they are not good - but they don't care. They are good enough for what they do in PvE and that's OK for them.

All in all, I believe that probably, a significant part of the players not coming to WvW are simply casual players like my friends. They come into GW2 for easy fun, and WvW is not. This is an activity that needs a bit more than that. So, they don't do WvW.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Dreamy Lu.3865 said:I have many friends in the game, who are PvE only. I could never convince them to WvW (same for raids). We regularly talk about the reasons why they don't come. I can list them below:

• Casual players (due to busy real life or else). They want to have it easy and play relaxed. Nothing more. For them, WvW and raids (even fractals too) are activities that require more efforts: No way.
• Not enough gold and material to equip properly. It is a direct consequence of previous point. Their casual way to play means low earnings. They don't have much gold and not much material. They can't afford any high level equipment and simply don't want to bother about.
• Scheduling. Due to busy real life, they can't commit. Side note from my side: I can't blame them. I have myself a busy real life and at times, it is true that it is hard to stick to scheduling.
• Communication style too rude. They understand that commanders need to be straight in what they say while fighting, but they come in the game to have fun, and to get blamed in public is not part of it.
• Don't want to use Discord/TS3. Many different reasons for that, no need to list them.
• Don't want to be judged on their performances. They don't pretend they are good players - as a matter of fact, they even acknowledge they are not good - but they don't care. They are good enough for what they do in PvE and that's OK for them.

All in all, I believe that probably, a significant part of the players not coming to WvW are simply casual players like my friends. They come into GW2 for easy fun, and WvW is not. This is an activity that needs a bit more than that. So, they don't do WvW.

good summary.

[Gop.8713]

@"Caliburn.1845" said:All these replies and no mention of 1u1d? Tanking existed during the glicko system, but it was far less common. With 1u1d in place tanking is a week to week concern since you can predict the match-ups in the future with good accuracy and thus decide which future match-up you want.

1st gets you matched against servers A and B. 2nd gets you matched against servers C and D. 3rd gets you matched against servers E and F. "Winning" gets you nothing at all. It is all about selecting the opponents you want to face.Yeah that's another great point. Idk about tanking being less prevalent under glicko, but it is certainly easier to anticipate the immediate results of tanking under 1u1d . . .@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Dreamy Lu.3865 said:I have many friends in the game, who are PvE only. I could never convince them to WvW (same for raids). We regularly talk about the reasons why they don't come. I can list them below:

• Casual players (due to busy real life or else). They want to have it easy and play relaxed. Nothing more. For them, WvW and raids (even fractals too) are activities that require more efforts: No way.
• Not enough gold and material to equip properly. It is a direct consequence of previous point. Their casual way to play means low earnings. They don't have much gold and not much material. They can't afford any high level equipment and simply don't want to bother about.
• Scheduling. Due to busy real life, they can't commit. Side note from my side: I can't blame them. I have myself a busy real life and at times, it is true that it is hard to stick to scheduling.
• Communication style too rude. They understand that commanders need to be straight in what they say while fighting, but they come in the game to have fun, and to get blamed in public is not part of it.
• Don't want to use Discord/TS3. Many different reasons for that, no need to list them.
• Don't want to be judged on their performances. They don't pretend they are good players - as a matter of fact, they even acknowledge they are not good - but they don't care. They are good enough for what they do in PvE and that's OK for them.

All in all, I believe that probably, a significant part of the players not coming to WvW are simply casual players like my friends. They come into GW2 for easy fun, and WvW is not. This is an activity that needs a bit more than that. So, they don't do WvW.

good summary.

It is a good summary, but it summarizes reasons why ppl don't play wvw not why ppl who do play wvw don't play to win, which was the original focus of the thread I thought . . .

[Grim West.3194]

@Gop.8713 said:It is a good summary, but it summarizes reasons why ppl don't play wvw not why ppl who do play wvw don't play to win, which was the original focus of the thread I thought . . .

Play to win what? PPT wars? Pathetic.

The poll says more about the mindset of the type of person who likes to fight doors than it does about those who see banging on doors to be a moronic activity less interesting than watching grass grow.

The game mode is tanking. Most WvW players left years ago because they hated PvD. Of the few players left, some like to fight doors. The rest want nothing do do with it.

[Gop.8713]

Which is another great point. Not everyone is motivated by internal rewards and some sort of external reward for winning would likely turn at least some of the players/guilds/servers currently tanking back towards trying to win. I think the reason anet has shied away from that is because under the current system they are not able to create balanced matchups and they don't want to create rewards in an environment where they cannot provide a level playing field. They've said that the specific reason for moving to the alliance system is to allow them more granular control over matchups, and if that enables them to create more balanced matchups over time -- which is a very big if at this point -- I think it's possible we players could see some additional rewards for winning introduced in the future . . .

[Chaba.5410]

@"Gop.8713" said:Which is another great point. Not everyone is motivated by internal rewards and some sort of external reward for winning would likely turn at least some of the players/guilds/servers currently tanking back towards trying to win.

Telling an organized group of players who, during their 2-3 hour raid time, are getting 100+ heavy loot bags that they aren't "playing to win" is a really hard sell. The phrase has different meaning to different people and even if there were to be some other rewards for winning a match, it would still be a hard sell since match wins are highly dependent upon what occurs outside of raid times. It reduces "winning" to who can play the longest. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Gop.8713]

The players in your description aren't playing to win though, they're playing to farm. If the same group went out looking for other groups to fight until they found one they couldn't beat consistently and then kept going back to fight that group over and over they wouldn't be playing to win either, they'd be playing to fight. Same with smallscale players who duel or gank. There's nothing wrong with any of those behaviors, but they cannot correctly be described as trying to win the match. It's like playing Monopoly and trying to get all the railroads: You might win, you might not, but you don't care you're just trying to get the railroads. And that's great, w/e, none of my business . . .

But as it applies to the thread, none of those behaviors could be described as tanking either. Tanking is intentionally losing a match in order to drop down into a less competitive tier. What you describe is just playing the game however you want with indifference to what tier you are in, which is great as far as I'm concerned, but not really relevant to the subject of the thread . . .

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Grim West.3194 said:

@Gop.8713 said:It is a good summary, but it summarizes reasons why ppl don't play wvw not why ppl who do play wvw don't play to win, which was the original focus of the thread I thought . . .

Play to win what? PPT wars? Pathetic.

The poll says more about the mindset of the type of person who likes to fight doors than it does about those who see banging on doors to be a moronic activity less interesting than watching grass grow.

The game mode is tanking. Most WvW players left years ago because they hated PvD. Of the few players left, some like to fight doors. The rest want nothing do do with it.

So you claim they hate pvd and irony, they go down to the place where they will end up steam rolling others with numbers. That says more about the mindset of people.

[Chaba.5410]

@"Gop.8713" said:The players in your description aren't playing to win though, they're playing to farm. If the same group went out looking for other groups to fight until they found one they couldn't beat consistently and then kept going back to fight that group over and over they wouldn't be playing to win either, they'd be playing to fight. Same with smallscale players who duel or gank. There's nothing wrong with any of those behaviors, but they cannot correctly be described as trying to win the match. It's like playing Monopoly and trying to get all the railroads: You might win, you might not, but you don't care you're just trying to get the railroads. And that's great, w/e, none of my business . . .

But as it applies to the thread, none of those behaviors could be described as tanking either. Tanking is intentionally losing a match in order to drop down into a less competitive tier. What you describe is just playing the game however you want with indifference to what tier you are in, which is great as far as I'm concerned, but not really relevant to the subject of the thread . . .

Playing to win a fight often doesn't equate to playing to win the match since playing to win a match involves adherence to a particular behavior ("hit them while they don't have anyone on!") rather than the mechanics of the game. And therein lies the reason why WvW is not a truly competitive game. Compare with sPvP where you are forced to compete through the mechanics of the game due to the teams being of equal size. Notice too that "competitiveness" for WvW is commonly being defined as population and coverage, not mechanics.

And this is why it IS relevant to the subject of the thread because non-match-winning behaviors are commonly assumed and/or accused as to be "tanking". At the same time, players wrongly believe that adherence to a behavior is "winning".

People need to be honest about WvW. All you need to do to win a match in this game is get more population and coverage than the other team. Been that way since launch. You don't really need to do anything as an individual player. I thought Blackgate was the obvious example of this yet for some reason people still believe they win matches due to mechanics.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Still waiting for that blow up to come which should have been there last year.

[Mokk.2397]

What is a server but many individuals. IF the consensuses of the server is to throw in the towel then it usually means that the individuals are likely fed up with being nuked in a half second of encountering another opposing group. This is caused by a serious imbalance in population and class .Your analogy of playing monopoly is some what correct but what would happen if in your endeavor to acquire all the rail roads consistently fails because every time you land on one the rules change .You can't have that railroad because you have the shoe.So you change to the hat and the you land on that same railroad the next time around the board and rules change again.Oh darn you shouldn't have changed to the hat because this time you need the car .Most likely your just going to get fed up leave the game .Most people aren't against a challenge but the rules keep changing because some one says you can't be any good unless you follow a meta posted on some outside web site.As Dreamy Lu.3865 said many of us neither have the time or the gold for the equipment let along to keep changing armor and weapons every time some one says you have to follow the Meta if you want to play.And it's so bad now that if you don't run one of 3 classes with this equipment and with these traits you can't be any good.But you can't equip.Well OK theirs a couple other classes that are tolerated but if play with anything else don't bother showing up. I also agree that voice comms can get very toxic to the point of individuals being singled out the the cause of a lost battle because you can't or won't conform to a meta .So now you have like people congregating to certain servers to escape the meta and toxic environment .Are they lesser players ? Of course not! Just individuals who want to have fun with what they have and not be dictated to or singled out by some militant commander or group.So again .What is a server but many individuals.If you get a serious enough imbalance at the individual level then the server becomes imbalanced both in class and population . May as well throw in the towel (tank)

[Dralor.3701]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Grim West.3194 said:

@Gop.8713 said:It is a good summary, but it summarizes reasons why ppl don't play wvw not why ppl who do play wvw don't play to win, which was the original focus of the thread I thought . . .

Play to win what? PPT wars? Pathetic.

The poll says more about the mindset of the type of person who likes to fight doors than it does about those who see banging on doors to be a moronic activity less interesting than watching grass grow.

The game mode is tanking. Most WvW players left years ago because they hated PvD. Of the few players left, some like to fight doors. The rest want nothing do do with it.

So you claim they hate pvd and irony, they go down to the place where they will end up steam rolling others with numbers. That says more about the mindset of people.

I haven’t been below T3 so not sure how T4 looks but we always have plenty to fight. People are tired of coverage wars and want to fight other players.

Higher tiers who love pvd just trying to throw shade on everyone else..

[Gop.8713]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:The players in your description aren't playing to win though, they're playing to farm. If the same group went out looking for other groups to fight until they found one they couldn't beat consistently and then kept going back to fight that group over and over they wouldn't be playing to win either, they'd be playing to fight. Same with smallscale players who duel or gank. There's nothing wrong with any of those behaviors, but they cannot correctly be described as trying to win the match. It's like playing Monopoly and trying to get all the railroads: You might win, you might not, but you don't care you're just trying to get the railroads. And that's great, w/e, none of my business . . .

But as it applies to the thread, none of those behaviors could be described as tanking either. Tanking is intentionally losing a match in order to drop down into a less competitive tier. What you describe is just playing the game however you want with indifference to what tier you are in, which is great as far as I'm concerned, but not really relevant to the subject of the thread . . .

Playing to win a fight often doesn't equate to playing to win the match since playing to win a match involves adherence to a particular behavior ("hit them while they don't have anyone on!") rather than the mechanics of the game. And therein lies the reason why WvW is not a truly competitive game. Compare with sPvP where you are forced to compete through the mechanics of the game due to the teams being of equal size. Notice too that "competitiveness" for WvW is commonly being defined as population and coverage, not mechanics.

And this is why it IS relevant to the subject of the thread because non-match-winning behaviors are commonly assumed and/or accused as to be "tanking". At the same time, players wrongly believe that adherence to a behavior is "winning".

People need to be honest about WvW. All you need to do to win a match in this game is get more population and coverage than the other team. Been that way since launch. You don't really need to do anything as an individual player. I thought Blackgate was the obvious example of this yet for some reason people still believe they win matches due to mechanics.

It may just be that my definition of tanking is pretty narrow. If someone is on to farm or fight and they are in mid-farm/fight when a call for defense comes and they don't want to respond bc they don't want to leave their farm/fight, that's not tanking, imho . . .

But if someone is out looking for a farm or fight and a call for defense comes and they decide they don't want to go farm or fight at defense bc they need the structure to fall in order to drop or avoid rising in tier, that's tanking . . .

[Mirkava.8526]

@Sovereign.1093 said:i feel that. tourneys were the best fun.

unofficial reason imo tourneys were stopped is because 2 v1 coordinated.

why and when did you leave Desolation, i see you now in NSP!

[Rysdude.3824]

@style.6173 said:There are a lot of people who think they are fight guilds. Really they are just bag guilds. Essentially what happens is that some servers to play to win. They only fight when they have the advantage. The bag guilds then say they want to drop to find better fights. Rinse and repeat.

This perfectly describes those kinds of “fight” guilds lol It’s sad. and to address the topic, I don’t know why people tank. Maybe its because theyre mediocre in life and happy to be mediocre in video games too.

[MadBomber.3719]

@Rysdude.3824 said:

@"style.6173" said:There are a lot of people who think they are fight guilds. Really they are just bag guilds. Essentially what happens is that some servers to play to win. They only fight when they have the advantage. The bag guilds then say they want to drop to find better fights. Rinse and repeat.

This perfectly describes those kinds of “fight” guilds lol It’s sad. and to address the topic, I don’t know why people tank. Maybe its because theyre mediocre in life and happy to be mediocre in video games too.

can i get a list of these "fight" guilds

[zinkz.7045]

@"Dreamy Lu.3865" said:They don't pretend they are good players - as a matter of fact, they even acknowledge they are not good - but they don't care. They are good enough for what they do in PvE and that's OK for them.

PvE players shouldn't worry about being "good", most WvW players are between bad and mediocre at best, and that includes most people in WvW guilds, even some in GvG guilds, the number of "good" players in WvW, even by GW2's low standards is tiny, WvW players are just a lot more deluded about their "skill".

Most "good" WvW players have left the game, no one who genuinely wants quality, skilful PvP is playing WvW now, the alleged "fight" players left in this game are either basically addicted to it, even though as a PvP mode it has reached such an abysmally low level that is a complete joke or the reality is they are 'bag' players, basically PvE'rs, that Anet guy was right.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Mirkava.8526 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:i feel that. tourneys were the best fun.

unofficial reason imo tourneys were stopped is because 2 v1 coordinated.

why and when did you leave Desolation, i see you now in NSP!

is long story. =)

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

From what I've witnessed from 2 of the last 4 linkings most every t2 server adheres to the lose today, have fun tomorrow instead of win today, struggle tomorrow. It also seemed to me that T2 would drop off halfway through the week as nobody wanted to win, so the tier was only half as active as any other, then started to affect T3 as then nobody was too excited to move up as you'd only get good activity halfway through the week, so then servers did not want to leave T3. In both of those last 2 linkings where I dealt with this Borlis Pass was linked to T4 servers that went all the way up to T1 which was ridiculous. The other 2 linkings in this time we've been linked with SoS which is just dull and boring because T1 is the same pretty much every week.

[Grim West.3194]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The players in your description aren't playing to win though, they're playing to farm. If the same group went out looking for other groups to fight until they found one they couldn't beat consistently and then kept going back to fight that group over and over they wouldn't be playing to win either, they'd be playing to fight. Same with smallscale players who duel or gank. There's nothing wrong with any of those behaviors, but they cannot correctly be described as trying to win the match. It's like playing Monopoly and trying to get all the railroads: You might win, you might not, but you don't care you're just trying to get the railroads. And that's great, w/e, none of my business . . .

But as it applies to the thread, none of those behaviors could be described as tanking either. Tanking is intentionally losing a match in order to drop down into a less competitive tier. What you describe is just playing the game however you want with indifference to what tier you are in, which is great as far as I'm concerned, but not really relevant to the subject of the thread . . .

Playing to win a fight often doesn't equate to playing to win the match since playing to win a match involves adherence to a particular behavior ("hit them while they don't have anyone on!") rather than the mechanics of the game. And therein lies the reason why WvW is not a truly competitive game. Compare with sPvP where you are forced to compete through the mechanics of the game due to the teams being of equal size. Notice too that "competitiveness" for WvW is commonly being defined as population and coverage, not mechanics.

And this is why it IS relevant to the subject of the thread because non-match-winning behaviors are commonly assumed and/or accused as to be "tanking". At the same time, players wrongly believe that adherence to a behavior is "winning".

People need to be honest about WvW. All you need to do to win a match in this game is get more population and coverage than the other team. Been that way since launch. You don't really need to do anything as an individual player. I thought Blackgate was the obvious example of this yet for some reason people still believe they win matches due to mechanics.

It may just be that my definition of tanking is pretty narrow. If someone is on to farm or fight and they are in mid-farm/fight when a call for defense comes and they don't want to respond bc they don't want to leave their farm/fight, that's not tanking, imho . . .

But if someone is out looking for a farm or fight and a call for defense comes and they decide they don't want to go farm or fight at defense bc they need the structure to fall in order to drop or avoid rising in tier, that's tanking . . .

T1 is for PvE players. Most RvR players don't care about PvD, They constider it to be just another version of PvE. And just as boring. That is why all major RvR guilds left the game within months after GW2 launched. And why most people who are playing now avoid T1 like the plague. Dumb game mode is dumb.

[Strider Pj.2193]

I wonder what people will say after the restructure?

It seems like winning matters only when someone is winning.

In PPT world: that means T1

In KDR world it seems to mean finding the tier you can dominate with KDR and staying there. The only 4 positive KDRs in NA are on 4 different tiers. And have been for three weeks.

[Grim West.3194]

It really depends on what ANET does to fix the basic issues of the game. Right now all that matters is coverage. The server with the most coverage wins. Period. Skill and fighting doesn't matter. PPT players love that because they don't have to fight to win. RvR players hate that and most already left the game.

ANET has to decide. Do they cater to the PvE players on BlackGate or do the try to win back the massive amount of RvR players that gave up on the game? Tough call. If you cater to the BlackGate type PvE players then you are just trying to keep the ever dwindling players that are still here. If you try to win back the RvR players that left, they may not give you a second chance.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Grim West.3194 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The players in your description aren't playing to win though, they're playing to farm. If the same group went out looking for other groups to fight until they found one they couldn't beat consistently and then kept going back to fight that group over and over they wouldn't be playing to win either, they'd be playing to fight. Same with smallscale players who duel or gank. There's nothing wrong with any of those behaviors, but they cannot correctly be described as trying to win the match. It's like playing Monopoly and trying to get all the railroads: You might win, you might not, but you don't care you're just trying to get the railroads. And that's great, w/e, none of my business . . .

But as it applies to the thread, none of those behaviors could be described as tanking either. Tanking is intentionally losing a match in order to drop down into a less competitive tier. What you describe is just playing the game however you want with indifference to what tier you are in, which is great as far as I'm concerned, but not really relevant to the subject of the thread . . .

Playing to win a fight often doesn't equate to playing to win the match since playing to win a match involves adherence to a particular behavior ("hit them while they don't have anyone on!") rather than the mechanics of the game. And therein lies the reason why WvW is not a truly competitive game. Compare with sPvP where you are forced to compete through the mechanics of the game due to the teams being of equal size. Notice too that "competitiveness" for WvW is commonly being defined as population and coverage, not mechanics.

And this is why it IS relevant to the subject of the thread because non-match-winning behaviors are commonly assumed and/or accused as to be "tanking". At the same time, players wrongly believe that adherence to a behavior is "winning".

People need to be honest about WvW. All you need to do to win a match in this game is get more population and coverage than the other team. Been that way since launch. You don't really need to do anything as an individual player. I thought Blackgate was the obvious example of this yet for some reason people still believe they win matches due to mechanics.

It may just be that my definition of tanking is pretty narrow. If someone is on to farm or fight and they are in mid-farm/fight when a call for defense comes and they don't want to respond bc they don't want to leave their farm/fight, that's not tanking, imho . . .

But if someone is out looking for a farm or fight and a call for defense comes and they decide they don't want to go farm or fight at defense bc they need the structure to fall in order to drop or avoid rising in tier, that's tanking . . .

T1 is for PvE players. Most RvR players don't care about PvD, They constider it to be just another version of PvE. And just as boring. That is why all major RvR guilds left the game within months after GW2 launched. And why most people who are playing now avoid T1 like the plague. Dumb game mode is dumb.

They left the game because anet refuse to close the transfers and players back then stack the few servers with the free transfers, occupying the queues. Also, there are very few alliances capable of putting up decent challenge against their organisation because majority of the "alliance" are just pve players first time in pvp scene, so it is rather boring and unchallenged. So, when pvp mmorpg guilds band together during that first few months, they slaughtered everybody else.

[LetoII.3782]

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:I wonder what people will say after the restructure?They'll say "wow, that didn't change things very much" xDIt seems like winning matters only when someone is winning.

You mean, PPT only matters to groups that PPTIn PPT world: that means T1If you have some nightcappersIn KDR world it seems to mean finding the tier you can dominate with KDR and staying there. The only 4 positive KDRs in NA are on 4 different tiers. And have been for three weeks.1u1d is great for match variety. EU servers used to do this instead of the rediculous tier walls we built here... You should try some non-BG time.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:I wonder what people will say after the restructure?They'll say "wow, that didn't change things very much" xDIt seems like winning matters only when someone is winning.

You mean, PPT only matters to groups that PPTIn PPT world: that means T1If you have some nightcappersIn KDR world it seems to mean finding the tier you can dominate with KDR and staying there. The only 4 positive KDRs in NA are on 4 different tiers. And have been for three weeks.1u1d is great for match variety. EU servers used to do this instead of the rediculous tier walls we built here... You should try some non-BG time.

Point one: agree. There will be a few who see it. They'll play on a couple of alliances who 'win'

Point two: sort of. That's why I quoted 'win'. Not sure a lot of us still in BG feel that it is 'winning'. (PPT wise). Though winning small skirmishes (in the fights sense not score) is definately fun. When you pull off a 2vs 3-4 it's kinda cool. Or your 4 defend a camp vs 6-8. But knowing your group when they run together does this regularly you get that.

Point three: which is why 'winning' doesn't matter to many of us either.

Point four: which is why I am hoping for the restructure (probably in vain) to happen sooner rather than later. There is a good chance our guild doesn't join an alliance. That would allow us to essentially get new experiences each 8 weeks.