Why I hate the Deadeye

[Ghostt.1293]

i can agree with thief's being twichty

[Burial.1958]

How deadeye should be....

[Druitt.7629]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

[Oxygen.5918]

@Druitt.7629 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Druitt.7629 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

What are you implying? The only real change the DE brings to the profession is how you play with the thief. The damage is still there. The stealth is still there. The Steal has been improved. There is access to support builds. But other than that, nothing has really changed about the profession.

[Sobx.1758]

I don't know, I feel like there's no real reason to pick a DE spec. Other than "I want to play with rifle", but IMO the spec doesn't really feel as good as it should. And I'm saying that as someone who REALLY wanted to play DE. But it's... disappointing on so many levels. There's barely a situation (if any) where you can pick DE over other thief builds.You trade a lot (mobility, ability to attack multiple targets, some dmg/dps) to get what? Range? In a game where anyone can easly close the gap? I don't know about that. Not to mention that when you kneel vs ranger, he can hit you and you can't hit him, wtf ;D

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Sobx.1758 said:I don't know, I feel like there's no real reason to pick a DE spec. Other than "I want to play with rifle", but IMO the spec doesn't really feel as good as it should. And I'm saying that as someone who REALLY wanted to play DE. But it's... disappointing on so many levels. There's barely a situation (if any) where you can pick DE over other thief builds.You trade a lot (mobility, ability to attack multiple targets, some dmg/dps) to get what? Range? In a game where anyone can easly close the gap? I don't know about that. Not to mention that when you kneel vs ranger, he can hit you and you can't hit him, kitten ;D

Without rifle, just like DD, they are improved core thieves.

Stealing is no longer a hard engage (advantage and disadvantage)Ramping Damage with all weapons to a single target(? Malice does not feel like it behaves in this way). 21% at full malice using M7. 15% with only 5 Malice. DD can not achieve that without having staff on at all times.A second, and reliable access to quickness with scaling damage of 15% at max malice.Quick on demand access to stealth that removes penalties that prevents it.Very tanky against a single target.A massive damage spike at Max MaliceVery Strong Synergy with Critical Strikes, Shadow Arts, Trickery, and in some cases Deadly ArtsStolen Items apply Conditions and Debuffs to marked targets at all ranges, and gives you boons that thieves normally would not have access to. (Superspeed for example)You have support functions in two traits.Can get a free stolen skill, when combined with deadly arts, stolen skills can be used twice giving you a total of 2+2*(each cantrip used) stolen skill.Access to a very powerful AOE Utility.Strong Defensive Utilities and CCs.The ability to play mindgames with players.Strongest self heal ability, that doubles as a powerful condi removal. Something that thieves had MASSIVELY lackedMax bonus damage percentage is 21% Requires one Trait, but is fully gained over the course of some seconds.Minimal Bonus damage percentage is 15%Access to a stun when you first damage an opponent (can not be blocked due to the trigger being damage).

Without Staff, DD gives...

An elite that can immediately finish a player off.An interruption UtilityThief's only real access to block.Dodge MechanicsA strong Condi trait (Pulminary Imapct).Three dodgesGood access to endurance regen.Weakness on Critical hit.7% bonus damage to enemies within 360 units.Condi removal on evade.Max bonus damage percentage is 17% to all enemies within 360 units. Requires two traits. But immediate accessMinimal Bonus damage percentage is 0%One of the Dodge Mechanics provides a good mobility boost.A strong healing ability that restores endurance.Has synergy with Acrobatics, Critical Strikes, Trickery, and some features with Deadly Arts

Looking at it objectively, when you take away the spec unique weapon, Deadeye provides more power if the player is comfortable with core thief. Daredevil provides a mix of damage and survivability, and isn't as punishing for wasting a dodge. Yes Mark can be blocked, but it only stops the steal effects. You will generate malice normally, I haven't been denied a stolen skill yet. Steal can be blocked in the same manner.

Something tells me you're not actually taking a moment to think about what each spec can do without their weapons.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:Looking at it objectively, when you take away the spec unique weapon, Deadeye provides more power if the player is comfortable with core thief. Daredevil provides a mix of damage and survivability, and isn't as punishing for wasting a dodge. Yes Mark can be blocked, but it only stops the steal effects. You will generate malice normally, I haven't been denied a stolen skill yet. Steal can be blocked in the same manner.

the thing to always keep in mind is that "core Thief" isn't "core Thief" anymore. They stole a solid chunk of core Thief to make the Daredevil, and haven't given it back to either core or Deadeye, so a Deadeye will still be worse than pre-HoT Thief in terms of mobility. I do think there's some benefit to what Deadeye can offer, but the limited mobility is just too crippling on a Thief. It would be like if they took Water away from core Elementalist, gave it to Tempests, and then Weavers had to decide whether to play as a Weaver without Water, or play as a Tempest.

[Oxygen.5918]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Druitt.7629 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

What are you implying? The only real change the DE brings to the profession is how you play with the thief. The damage is still there. The stealth is still there. The Steal has been improved. There is access to support builds. But other than that, nothing has really changed about the profession.

The original post contains my insights. Feel free to (re)read it.

[Oxygen.5918]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I don't know, I feel like there's no real reason to pick a DE spec. Other than "I want to play with rifle", but IMO the spec doesn't really feel as good as it should. And I'm saying that as someone who REALLY wanted to play DE. But it's... disappointing on so many levels. There's barely a situation (if any) where you can pick DE over other thief builds.You trade a lot (mobility, ability to attack multiple targets, some dmg/dps) to get what? Range? In a game where anyone can easly close the gap? I don't know about that. Not to mention that when you kneel vs ranger, he can hit you and you can't hit him, kitten ;D

Without rifle, just like DD, they are improved core thieves.

Stealing is no longer a hard engage (advantage and disadvantage)Ramping Damage with all weapons to a single target(? Malice does not feel like it behaves in this way). 21% at full malice using M7. 15% with only 5 Malice. DD can not achieve that without having staff on at all times.A second, and reliable access to quickness with scaling damage of 15% at max malice.Quick on demand access to stealth that removes penalties that prevents it.Very tanky against a single target.A massive damage spike at Max MaliceVery Strong Synergy with Critical Strikes, Shadow Arts, Trickery, and in some cases Deadly ArtsStolen Items apply Conditions and Debuffs to marked targets at all ranges, and gives you boons that thieves normally would not have access to. (Superspeed for example)You have support functions in two traits.Can get a free stolen skill, when combined with deadly arts, stolen skills can be used twice giving you a total of 2+2*(each cantrip used) stolen skill.Access to a very powerful AOE Utility.Strong Defensive Utilities and CCs.The ability to play mindgames with players.Strongest self heal ability, that doubles as a powerful condi removal. Something that thieves had MASSIVELY lackedMax bonus damage percentage is 21% Requires one Trait, but is fully gained over the course of some seconds.Minimal Bonus damage percentage is 15%Access to a stun when you first damage an opponent (can not be blocked due to the trigger being damage).

Without Staff, DD gives...

An elite that can immediately finish a player off.An interruption UtilityThief's only real access to block.Dodge MechanicsA strong Condi trait (Pulminary Imapct).Three dodgesGood access to endurance regen.Weakness on Critical hit.7% bonus damage to enemies within 360 units.Condi removal on evade.Max bonus damage percentage is 17% to all enemies within 360 units. Requires two traits. But immediate accessMinimal Bonus damage percentage is 0%One of the Dodge Mechanics provides a good mobility boost.A strong healing ability that restores endurance.Has synergy with Acrobatics, Critical Strikes, Trickery, and some features with Deadly Arts

Looking at it objectively, when you take away the spec unique weapon, Deadeye provides more power if the player is comfortable with core thief. Daredevil provides a mix of damage and survivability, and isn't as punishing for wasting a dodge. Yes Mark can be blocked, but it only stops the steal effects. You will generate malice normally, I haven't been denied a stolen skill yet. Steal can be blocked in the same manner.

Something tells me you're not actually taking a moment to think about what each spec can do without their weapons.

My issue is more about the Deadeye (specifically, Rifles) not feeling thiefy; not necessarily about the spec's tuning.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Druitt.7629 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

What are you implying? The only real change the DE brings to the profession is how you play with the thief. The damage is still there. The stealth is still there. The Steal has been improved. There is access to support builds. But other than that, nothing has really changed about the profession.

The original post contains my insights. Feel free to (re)read it.

You basically changed the definition to suit your own point just like another comment said. Your personal description of thief is based exclusively off the d/p DrD meta. The meta does not and never will define the profession, regardless of how hard the meta is pushed or which profession that is. So again, what are you implying?

[Sobx.1758]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I don't know, I feel like there's no real reason to pick a DE spec. Other than "I want to play with rifle", but IMO the spec doesn't really feel as good as it should. And I'm saying that as someone who REALLY wanted to play DE. But it's... disappointing on so many levels. There's barely a situation (if any) where you can pick DE over other thief builds.You trade a lot (mobility, ability to attack multiple targets, some dmg/dps) to get what? Range? In a game where anyone can easly close the gap? I don't know about that. Not to mention that when you kneel vs ranger, he can hit you and you can't hit him, kitten ;D

Without rifle, just like DD, they are improved core thieves.

Nah, the thing is DD is better. Gets dmg boost while having more survivability, mobility and has easier time at attacking multiple targets. By no way DE is on the same level as DD.

Stealing is no longer a hard engage (advantage and disadvantage)

Disadvantage considering you're not using rifle as you mentioned at the beginning of your post. You try to make something an "advantage" even if it's clearly not in the situation you mentioned.

Ramping Damage with all weapons to a single target(? Malice does not feel like it behaves in this way). 21% at full malice using M7. 15% with only 5 Malice. DD can not achieve that without having staff on at all times.

And why would you not want to use staff as DD? That's not a valid argument at all. MAYBE if you want to run P/P, but when you have a staff, you don't really have a reason.Also you're just completely disregarding the designated DE weapon for some reason? You can't 'market' a class as a rifle user and then say "eh... but it kinds works without a rifle, right?".

A second, and reliable access to quickness with scaling damage of 15% at max malice.

DD is fine better on dmg and for some reason you list malice bonus dmg again?

Quick on demand access to stealth that removes penalties that prevents it.

Thief/DD always had an easy access to stealth, not really an argument.

Very tanky against a single target.

LOL, not really. (and you keep mentioning all these ""advantages"" like you're able to pick all the traits at the same time for some reason? :D)

A massive damage spike at Max Malice

""massive damage spike"" after you charge the malice, but DD has the bonus dmg all the time without charging anything, so DD is still better with dps?

Very Strong Synergy with Critical Strikes, Shadow Arts, Trickery, and in some cases Deadly Arts

You can say that literally about any thief build, not only elite ones. What kind of argument is that?

Stolen Items apply Conditions and Debuffs to marked targets at all ranges, and gives you boons that thieves normally would not have access to. (Superspeed for example)

As a thief (as you said, not using rifle), you want to be in close range anyways (again, with the exception of P/P?) and you have (and always had) means to achieve that.So... yeah, not really an argument except for the part that you can get new boons... but what if you want the old stolen skills?

You have support functions in two traits.

I'm sure everyone picks up DE to be a support. Give me a break. There are better picks for that.

Can get a free stolen skill, when combined with deadly arts, stolen skills can be used twice giving you a total of 2+2*(each cantrip used) stolen skill.

You can get a 2 stolen skills anyways because it's in DA, not DE. 4 stolen skills is a clear overkill. Also you keep writing as if you can take all traits at once and we both know this one pretty much won't see any use. Not. An. Argument.

Access to a very powerful AOE Utility.

So does the DD and not on a 40 second cd?(and you won't be using that)

Strong Defensive Utilities and CCs.

Ok, kind of. But you need space in a build to use it. And you won't. And DD is still a better pick if you want to stay safe.

The ability to play mindgames with players.

Like the whole thief class. Not an argument.

Strongest self heal ability, that doubles as a powerful condi removal. Something that thieves had MASSIVELY lacked

For the cost of your bonus dmg. Or do we suddenly stopped caring about that part that you used at least twice as an argument in this post?(also for that powerful heal you, again, need to charge your malice. And you can't heal when you get 2-shotted) DD still has better survivability. Aaaand thief already had condition removal.

Max bonus damage percentage is 21% Requires one Trait, but is fully gained over the course of some seconds.

Ah so we're back to malice. Third time? Maybe.

Minimal Bonus damage percentage is 15%

When. You. Charge. It.Also "malice bonus dmg" arguement already was mentioned by you. Stop trying to repeat the same point when you don't have any real ones just to make your list artificially longer.

Access to a stun when you first damage an opponent (can not be blocked due to the trigger being damage).

What is a stealth staff 1 again? Ah yes. Not an argument.

Without Staff, DD gives...

WHY WOULD YOU NOT USE STAFF? "hey if you don't use proper weapon, then it's weak!"Not. An. Argument.

Looking at it objectively, when you take away the spec unique weapon, Deadeye provides more power if the player is comfortable with core thief. Daredevil provides a mix of damage and survivability, and isn't as punishing for wasting a dodge. Yes Mark can be blocked, but it only stops the steal effects. You will generate malice normally, I haven't been denied a stolen skill yet. Steal can be blocked in the same manner.Something tells me you're not actually taking a moment to think about what each spec can do without their weapons.

lmao, looking at it objectively, you're not objective. You write as if you could pick all traits at once, you list skills that won't even find a place in builds (while at the same time you compare it to a DD in a "build for a staff, but don't use a staff" manner) and you even list some things multiple times just so you can have a longer and "more viable" list. You're clearly biased.

Also your whole post is based on an absurd principle of a: "pick an elite, but don't use their weapon" as if that's supposed to make any sense. So I'll ask again: why wouldn't you want to use staff on DD? Why not compare a VALID BUILD with a VALID BUILD instead?

[Zacchary.6183]

@"Sobx.1758"

Nah, the thing is DD is better. Gets dmg boost while having more survivability, mobility and has easier time at attacking multiple targets. By no way DE is on the same level as DD.

Can it start its rotation off with 20+ might? Can it disengage 1800 in under 2 seconds?

Disadvantage considering you're not using rifle as you mentioned at the beginning of your post. You try to make something an "advantage" even if it's clearly not in the situation you mentioned.

It's still an advantage since there is nothing that will stop it from working other than LoS. Secondly, Mark can be used more often than Steal so long as those you mark die. You also have the ability to manually reset it with Mercy which also refunds ini per malice you have.

Thief/DD always had an easy access to stealth, not really an argument.

It actually is. Sniper's cover is the cheapest access to stealth thieves have. DD has to resort to core level access to obtain stealth and they do not have the ability to remove revealed.

LOL, not really. (and you keep mentioning all these ""advantages"" like you're able to pick all the traits at the same time for some reason? :D)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Sighthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resilience_of_ShadowsThat is a 40% straight reduction in damage.Secondly, Deadeye can get a 20% crit rate bonus with Sniper's Cover on top of it's easy access to fury through Rifle kneel 2 or Thrill of the Crime Mark spam. This means that stacking a lot of precision is unnecessary, which frees up the DE's stats to take either toughness or vitality. So yeah.

""massive damage spike"" after you charge the malice, but DD has the bonus dmg all the time without charging anything, so DD is still better with dps?

You don't need that much malice to pump out 30k in a couple of seconds. lol

You can say that literally about any thief build, not only elite ones. What kind of argument is that?

Not really. With Mark's ability to reset on kill, every steal trait the thief becomes more accessible to the point you can literally keep large stack of might on you. Also with DE's ability to self buff, they get more use out of things like Assassin's Fury from CS and Rifle kneeling 2 or Hidden Killer with it's larger access to stealth. And traits such as Hidden Killer and Revealed Training synergize well with DE traits like Revealed Malice allowing Revealed to be more of a buff in itself. So no, you can't really say that about core or DD thief.

As a thief (as you said, not using rifle), you want to be in close range anyways (again, with the exception of P/P?) and you have (and always had) means to achieve that.So... yeah, not really an argument except for the part that you can get new boons... but what if you want the old stolen skills?

That doesn't invalidate his point. As a DE, you want to be far away or you will die. Also if you want the old stolen skills you are handicapping yourself through steal alone. Old stolen skills are fairly unreliable compared to the new ones as well.

I'm sure everyone picks up DE to be a support. Give me a break. There are better picks for that.

You'd be surprised. Support DE doesn't give up that much damage to share boons.

You can get a 2 stolen skills anyways because it's in DA, not DE. 4 stolen skills is a clear overkill. Also you keep writing as if you can take all traits at once and we both know this one pretty much won't see any use. Not. An. Argument.

This is BS. I use Improv in my build and have been passing it out like candy. Apparently it works and others want to use it. So if nobody is using it now, many will definitely be using it later.

So does the DD and not on a 40 second cd?(and you won't be using that)

Again you'd be surprised. With max malice, Shadow Flare can deal plenty of damage. But it is mostly used as a backup shadowstep. Either way, DD is decent for aoe when it comes to Bound and Vault, but that's it.

Ok, kind of. But you need space in a build to use it. And you won't. And DD is still a better pick if you want to stay safe.

DD has evades and a block but that's it for defense. It still has to gear glassy to have any impact in combat, otherwise it's an unkillable noodle. DE however can easily disengage with Death's Retreat spam.

Like the whole thief class. Not an argument.

Not to the degree of Deadeye. Core and DD thief can't drop someone without being detected like DE can because their gameplay is built around being in your face.

For the cost of your bonus dmg. Or do we suddenly stopped caring about that part that you used at least twice as an argument in this post?(also for that powerful heal you, again, need to charge your malice. And you can't heal when you get 2-shotted) DD still has better survivability. Aaaand thief already had condition removal.

Malicious Restoration does not remove malice anymore. And if you are specing glass cannon (which is pointless on DE) you are going to get 2 shotted anyways. DD's survivability is exclusively in their ability to dodge. There is plenty of endurance regen with DD but stealth is still limited to core thief. Likewise, DE's defense relies in stealth and has better access than core thief. However, unlike DE, Daredevil does not have great burst healing or burst cleansing nor does it synergize with SA as much as the DE spec. SA provides plenty of cleansing and defense which can only be utilized when weilding melee sets. However, Rifle DE can get much more out of that line than DD ever could whether the DD is using d/p or not.

When. You. Charge. It.Also "malice bonus dmg" arguement already was mentioned by you. Stop trying to repeat the same point when you don't have any real ones just to make your list artificially longer.

Malice is a significant argument. It's the spec's mechanic, dude.

What is a stealth staff 1 again? Ah yes. Not an argument.

You are comparing a stealth attack with a trait that turns the next attack (no matter what it is) into a stun. Maybe you should stop saying "Not an argument" until you start making valid arguments yourself.

WHY WOULD YOU NOT USE STAFF? "hey if you don't use proper weapon, then it's weak!"Not. An. Argument.

The point of that comment was to compare what each elite spec brings to the profession at their core.

Something tells me you're not actually taking a moment to think about what each spec can do without their weapons.

That's exactly what they are talking about.

lmao, looking at it objectively, you're not objective. You write as if you could pick all traits at once, you list skills that won't even find a place in builds (while at the same time you compare it to a DD in a "build for a staff, but don't use a staff" manner) and you even list some things multiple times just so you can have a longer and "more viable" list. You're clearly biased.

Also your whole post is based on an absurd principle of a: "pick an elite, but don't use their weapon" as if that's supposed to make any sense. So I'll ask again: why wouldn't you want to use staff on DD? Why not compare a VALID BUILD with a VALID BUILD instead?

Oh the irony. You really did nitpick and ignore simple concepts like comparison and profession analysis, especially when everyone is trying to compare apples to oranges. The reality is the DD does things DE can't and DE does things DD can't. Both work. Both have their own style of play.

[Oxygen.5918]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Druitt.7629 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

What are you implying? The only real change the DE brings to the profession is how you play with the thief. The damage is still there. The stealth is still there. The Steal has been improved. There is access to support builds. But other than that, nothing has really changed about the profession.

The original post contains my insights. Feel free to (re)read it.

You basically changed the definition to suit your own point just like another comment said. Your personal description of thief is based exclusively off the d/p DrD meta. The meta does not and never will define the profession, regardless of how hard the meta is pushed or which profession that is. So again, what are you implying?

The definition fits every thief weapon set. I never mentioned anything about a meta.

[Zacchary.6183]

Very much so. The d/p daredevil set perfectly fits the description you made up.

Thieves are tricky:Lots of stealth and combat mobility is what makes them "tricky". The set easily gap closes and can disappear constantly, assuming it has the initiative or utilities to do so.Check....twitchy:Everything on the d/p weaponset is reactive. Daredevil allows for more and enhanced evasion which allows evasion to be equally twitchy.Check....highly mobile:Yes. Especially in combat.Check.The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded:Yes, as with all thief builds.Check....which works well with their in-and-out style:d/p daredevil can easily disengage and engage depending on the situation.Check.Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting:Yes. d/p daredevil has to rely on it's evades and stealth to not die.Check....and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive:Half of d/p daredevil's defense. Yup.Check.Anyway, none of this makes sense for the nature of the profession. I don't think homogenizing everything is the way to go.

And as a reply to some of your comments:

1. Both death's retreat and Kneel are both tricky. There is a reason why there is an ammo system on kneel, so you can adjust without abusing it. If you are kneeling the entire time, you are a sitting duck asking to get killed. Death's retreat can also be spammed to get away or tapped to kite. Timed right you can actually avoid attacks all together.
2. If you are meleeing with deadeye, you are playing it wrong. Deadeye is a long ranged/support spec. The whole spec is designed for you to play at range and with others. Support, something thieves never had access to. It even says right on the wiki that the deadeye was designed to address the thief's lack of long ranged combat.
3. Death's Retreat is plenty mobile. In fact, it could outrace a nike warrior, if the Deadeye knows what they are doing. Think over 3k units in under 5 seconds.
4. The rifle can be bursty and frontloaded, but it seems barely anyone knows how to achieve that despite the massive amounts of advice that has been circulating the forums.
5. If you are sniping at range and have a friend taking the heat in your stead, there isn't much point in teleporting or dodging now is there? That's because the Deadeye has a totally different playstyle than core Thief or Daredevil. I don't understand why this concept has to be repeated constantly to everyone. And most importantly, Deadeye has access to buffs the rest of the profession doesn't. It's not just in variety, but it also has buffing capabilities to a degree neither core nor DD will ever reach. This opens up roles and build variety, something that the thief community has been bitching about for years.
6. And if you want DE to make sense with the profession (which it does anyways, not including your description), you are basically asking it to be homogenized to the only playstyle thief has had for years, in your face melee/+1bot/fodder. You can't have both.

EDIT: and before you tell me: s/p, s/d, p/d and (definitely) p/p do not have the disengage abilities of d/p unless you spec for it.

[Zero Day.2594]

@Oxygen.5918 said:...Yes, the profession that is about stealthing and using stealth attack prevents itself from stealthing. Why?...

Cuz teef opeeee

[Oxygen.5918]

@Zacchary.6183 said:Very much so. The d/p daredevil set perfectly fits the description you made up.

Thieves are tricky

:Lots of stealth and combat mobility is what makes them "tricky". The set easily gap closes and can disappear constantly, assuming it has the initiative or utilities to do so.Check.

...twitchy

:Everything on the d/p weaponset is reactive. Daredevil allows for more and enhanced evasion which allows evasion to be equally twitchy.Check.

...highly mobile

:Yes. Especially in combat.Check.

The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded

:Yes, as with all thief builds.Check.

...which works well with their in-and-out style

:d/p daredevil can easily disengage and engage depending on the situation.Check.

Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting

:Yes. d/p daredevil has to rely on it's evades and stealth to not die.Check.

...and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive

:Half of d/p daredevil's defense. Yup.Check.Anyway, none of this makes sense for the nature of the profession. I don't think homogenizing everything is the way to go.

And as a reply to some of your comments:

1. Both death's retreat and Kneel are both tricky. There is a reason why there is an ammo system on kneel, so you can adjust without abusing it. If you are kneeling the entire time, you are a sitting duck asking to get killed. Death's retreat can also be spammed to get away or tapped to kite. Timed right you can actually avoid attacks all together.
2. If you are meleeing with deadeye, you are playing it wrong. Deadeye is a long ranged/support spec. The whole spec is designed for you to play at range and with others. Support, something thieves never had access to. It even says right on the wiki that the deadeye was designed to address the thief's lack of long ranged combat.
3. Death's Retreat is plenty mobile. In fact, it could outrace a nike warrior, if the Deadeye knows what they are doing. Think over 3k units in under 5 seconds.
4. The rifle can be bursty and frontloaded, but it seems barely anyone knows how to achieve that despite the massive amounts of advice that has been circulating the forums.
5. If you are sniping at range and have a friend taking the heat in your stead, there isn't much point in teleporting or dodging now is there? That's because the Deadeye
   has a totally different playstyle than core Thief or Daredevil.
   I don't understand why this concept has to be repeated constantly to everyone. And most importantly, Deadeye has access to buffs the rest of the profession doesn't. It's not just in variety, but it also has buffing capabilities to a degree neither core nor DD will ever reach. This opens up roles and build variety, something that the thief community has been bitching about for years.
6. And if you want DE to make sense with the profession (which it does anyways, not including your description), you are basically asking it to be homogenized to the only playstyle thief has had for years, in your face melee/+1bot/fodder. You can't have both.

EDIT: and before you tell me: s/p, s/d, p/d and (definitely) p/p do not have the disengage abilities of d/p unless you spec for it.

1. I think I specifically discussed Death's Retreat because of how damn similar it was to a lot of other skills featured on other thief weapon sets. Its design is lazy as all shfck.
2. Sure, but the thief isn't about that, and shouldn't be. They address something that didn't need addressing in the first place, and end up doing it in an excessively unimaginative way. They're killing profession identity slowly.
3. See 1.
4. Malice as a concept promotes staying in combat, and punishes target switching. It's completely disconnected from the thief's nature.
5. This has to be repeated because players are completely flabbergasted by the design choices made here. Do you think all the discontentment about the traitline is pure coincidence?
6. My P/D would like to have a word with you."edit": Why do you think SB is considered the only really viable thief swap? Even condition builds run it, making your point rather moot.

[Zacchary.6183]

Very much so. The d/p daredevil set perfectly fits the description you made up.

Thieves are tricky:Lots of stealth and combat mobility is what makes them "tricky". The set easily gap closes and can disappear constantly, assuming it has the initiative or utilities to do so.Check....twitchy:Everything on the d/p weaponset is reactive. Daredevil allows for more and enhanced evasion which allows evasion to be equally twitchy.Check....highly mobile:Yes. Especially in combat.Check.The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded:Yes, as with all thief builds.Check....which works well with their in-and-out style:d/p daredevil can easily disengage and engage depending on the situation.Check.Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting:Yes. d/p daredevil has to rely on it's evades and stealth to not die.Check....and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive:Half of d/p daredevil's defense. Yup.Check.Anyway, none of this makes sense for the nature of the profession. I don't think homogenizing everything is the way to go.

And as a reply to some of your comments: If you are meleeing with deadeye, you are playing it wrong. Deadeye is a long ranged/support spec. The whole spec is designed for you to play at range and with others. Support, something thieves never had access to. It even says right on the wiki that the deadeye was designed to address the thief's lack of long ranged combat.> @Oxygen.5918 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:Very much so. The d/p daredevil set perfectly fits the description

you made up

.

Thieves are tricky

:Lots of stealth and combat mobility is what makes them "tricky". The set easily gap closes and can disappear constantly, assuming it has the initiative or utilities to do so.Check.

...twitchy

:Everything on the d/p weaponset is reactive. Daredevil allows for more and enhanced evasion which allows evasion to be equally twitchy.Check.

...highly mobile

:Yes. Especially in combat.Check.

The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded

:Yes, as with all thief builds.Check.

...which works well with their in-and-out style

:d/p daredevil can easily disengage and engage depending on the situation.Check.

Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting

:Yes. d/p daredevil has to rely on it's evades and stealth to not die.Check.

...and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive

:Half of d/p daredevil's defense. Yup.Check.Anyway, none of this makes sense for the nature of the profession. I don't think homogenizing everything is the way to go.

And as a reply to some of your comments:

1. Both death's retreat and Kneel are both tricky. There is a reason why there is an ammo system on kneel, so you can adjust without abusing it. If you are kneeling the entire time, you are a sitting duck asking to get killed. Death's retreat can also be spammed to get away or tapped to kite. Timed right you can actually avoid attacks all together.
2. If you are meleeing with deadeye, you are playing it wrong. Deadeye is a long ranged/support spec. The whole spec is designed for you to play at range and with others. Support, something thieves never had access to. It even says right on the wiki that the deadeye was designed to address the thief's lack of long ranged combat.
3. Death's Retreat is plenty mobile. In fact, it could outrace a nike warrior, if the Deadeye knows what they are doing. Think over 3k units in under 5 seconds.
4. The rifle can be bursty and frontloaded, but it seems barely anyone knows how to achieve that despite the massive amounts of advice that has been circulating the forums.
5. If you are sniping at range and have a friend taking the heat in your stead, there isn't much point in teleporting or dodging now is there? That's because the Deadeye
   has a totally different playstyle than core Thief or Daredevil.
   I don't understand why this concept has to be repeated constantly to everyone. And most importantly, Deadeye has access to buffs the rest of the profession doesn't. It's not just in variety, but it also has buffing capabilities to a degree neither core nor DD will ever reach. This opens up roles and build variety, something that the thief community has been bitching about for years.
6. And if you want DE to make sense with the profession (which it does anyways, not including your description), you are basically asking it to be homogenized to the only playstyle thief has had for years, in your face melee/+1bot/fodder. You can't have both.

EDIT: and before you tell me: s/p, s/d, p/d and (definitely) p/p do not have the disengage abilities of d/p unless you spec for it.

1. I think I specifically discussed Death's Retreat because of how kitten similar it was to a lot of other skills featured on other thief weapon sets. Its design is lazy as all shfck.
2. Sure, but the thief isn't about that, and shouldn't be. They address something that didn't need addressing in the first place, and end up doing it in an excessively unimaginative way. They're killing profession identity slowly.
3. See 1.
4. Malice as a concept promotes staying in combat, and punishes target switching. It's completely disconnected from the thief's nature.
5. This has to be repeated because players are completely flabbergasted by the design choices made here. Do you think all the discontentment about the traitline is pure coincidence?
6. My P/D would like to have a word with you."edit": Why do you think SB is considered the only really viable thief swap? Even condition builds run it, making your point rather moot.

1. Then what would you propose to replace or improve it? Death's Retreat, regardless of how lazily designed it may look, still works as a gap opener and a disengage. You are looking at it subjectively.
2. So what you are telling me is the thief is a pure melee and is supposed to remain as a pure melee class, right? That was not how the thief was before they decided to nerf thief's ranged options into the ground by removing richochet and dropping shortbow's range down to 900. There is nothing in this game that dictates the thief profession has to stay within melee other than the thief community. And while thieves remained in melee, they constantly complained about a lack of build diversity because all that ever happened was the d/p meta. Some builds did improve, but the profession as a whole did not. They still remained +1 bots and solo roamers. They meant nothing and contributed nothing everywhere else.
3. Doesn't change my point.
4. Malice doesn't punish target switching because the mark stays on the original target until it's timer runs out or the marked target dies. It punishes the player when they don't keep it up which I suspect a lot of people are not doing.
5. How hard is it to understand what a sniper is all about? It's a sniper. It's a sniper. It's a sniper. The reason why they are flabbergasted is because they don't know how to play like a sniper. They are used to melee playstyles only, so much so that they actually believe that's all thief will ever be. That that's all thief ever should be. If that's the case they can simply not play Deadeye because the spec is just not for them.
6. I think you are conflating kiting with combat mobility. And if that's the case, rifle is really no different from p/d save that its a power weapon. Hell it might even be better than p/d simply because it's kiting skill doesn't need to hit. But I have played and fought against p/d and all I have to do is not let you touch me with your dagger. c:

And SB is the only viable swap weapon because thieves have initiative instead of regular CDs and need some way to get around the map faster either in or out of combat. One of the few reasons why daredevil exists. Why do you think I did not included it in my list?

[Argol Vazin.3061]

If you have either played Pathfinder you will find that they do a thing called archetypes. In pathfinder. you can play a rogue which is your standard. stealth about and backstab in melee Thief. you can use short bows but you don't get the sneak attack bonus. You then apply the Sniper archetype. which replaces some of your core features and grants you the ability to reduce range attack penalties and changes the sneak attack bonus to apply to ranged weapons. This is the same kind of design principle that elite specs are based on. you are effectivly a subclass that is built upon some of the core features of the main class. This is why they are called specializations. Think of it like a doctor.Doctor is the core profession. but then you can get a dermatologist to specialize in skin care or you can get a fundamental change like the Surgeon. still a doctor. but very different to what the core Doctor is. Could maybe also use Psychologist as the example.

[Manpag.6421]

I know I'll be shot down (pun not intended) for weighing in from a PvE perspective, but the game isn't all PvP and not everything is going to be equally viable in all game modes.

Anyway... I'm finding Deadeye WAY more useful in PvE than I ever expected it to be. As has been said, it changes the playstyle of thief significantly, and despite its single-target focus I find it really flourishes in PvE. Things I've noticed so far:

• Extra range and power lets you take a much more supportive role in boss fights, since they will rarely - if ever - engage you when surrounded by tanks; the damage you pump out, on the other hand, speeds up fights a lot.
• Much prefer DM to Steal; the instant recharge on kill makes it ideal for the kind of open-world roaming you're doing in PvE.
• With the above, Thrill of the Crime means you can keep up Fury, Might and Swiftness permanently in most areas.
• Rifle without Kneel is pretty good for soloing champs as long as Death's Retreat isn't blocked, though that happens far too often at the moment.
• Being a less mobile profession can be beneficial in some situations, particularly jumping puzzles with enemies or certain mini-dungeons (taking a spec that relies on dodging like DD into something like Windy Cave is a death wish).
• Obviously synergises really well with P/P. With Signets of Power and Inflitrator's Signet combined with Kleptomaniac and the bonus initiative if all shots hit, Unload is often completely free.

And for a single-target spec, it's surprisingly good for large groups of enemies. Kneel skill 3 fires rapidly enough to hit several targets, and #2 pierces; perfect for those 'defend x from enemies' type events where otherwise you're running back and forth to meet the waves as they spawn.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Deadeye is far from perfect in its execution. Its not bad perse but does have some flaws that I personally find fun in working with

[Mayama.1854]

Am I the only one that thinks its a good thing that we dont have another ninja specialization? If you want another version of that playstyle try mirage.

[jaif.3518]

@Mayama.1854 said:Am I the only one that thinks its a good thing that we dont have another ninja specialization? If you want another version of that playstyle try mirage.

Not at all. I think a lot of people are enjoying Deadeye right now. I like the new steal - it doesn't force you into melee, which is good for some builds. I also like the rifle skills. I'm not sure if they are perfectly tuned or not, but they get the job done.

[Kichwas.7152]

@Oxygen.5918 said:The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

...highly mobile: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

Ok... the Thief is NOT described as highly mobile... but that said you are right that until Deadeye it was in fact... highly mobile.

Final Fantasy XIV tried this same thing with it's previous 2015 expansion... it took the Bard - a super mobile class, the only always mobile class in it's game... and made it have to root in place to use abilities. It then added a class that was a lot like Deadeye - a stand still rooted sniper... Except you leveled the first 50 of 60 levels on both of these as super mobile... so in other words... just like here: you leveled mobile, and your endgame spec was "stand still and NEVER move... stay in the fire and hope somebody heals you through it"...

The Bard and Machinist became very unpopular, especially among the core demographic of 'Bard' players - super casuals. Like ranger here, it was the class "any noob can play well enough to do dungeons, and any 'decent' player can master to the same level as an expert player on any other class... But after they rooted it in place... those 'noob' players were basically getting eaten alive by level 1 hostile sheep...

I predict Deadeye will have a notable negative impact on Thief popularity. People who have played GW2 by using dodge to survive... can't play this class. And lets face it... Dodging to survive is actually the proper way to play GW2... So what are you left with? Stack toughness and Vitality and heal through the cleave of a boss... but do 2.8k DPS when the guy next to you is doing 28k...

Or spend the first x-seconds of every fight "platforming" to a safe spot and then sniper as somebody else eats damage for you...

• Something that will take a very high skill-cap to NOT lose too much DPS over doing... (and presumes there even is a safe spot somewhere).

Stationary classes in MMOs that don't have a trinity with a tank and full-specc'd healer are not going to be popular. Even in games with a full blown trinity... your platform classes have to learn to dodge and move between skill/spell uses... But for Deadeye... you have to leave kneel, move, then kneel again... you can't even tap dodge to get out of it...

Otherwise I actually like the elite spec a lot. But this one... is going to make using it always a test of my willingness to suffer...

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@Kichwas.7152 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

...highly mobile

: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

Ok... the Thief is NOT described as highly mobile... but that said you are right that until Deadeye it was in fact... highly mobile.

Final Fantasy XIV tried this same thing with it's previous 2015 expansion... it took the Bard - a super mobile class, the only always mobile class in it's game... and made it have to root in place to use abilities. It then added a class that was a lot like Deadeye - a stand still rooted sniper... Except you leveled the first 50 of 60 levels on both of these as super mobile... so in other words... just like here: you leveled mobile, and your endgame spec was "stand still and NEVER move... stay in the fire and hope somebody heals you through it"...

The Bard and Machinist became very unpopular, especially among the core demographic of 'Bard' players - super casuals. Like ranger here, it was the class "any noob can play well enough to do dungeons, and any 'decent' player can master to the same level as an expert player on any other class... But after they rooted it in place... those 'noob' players were basically getting eaten alive by level 1 hostile sheep...

I predict Deadeye will have a notable negative impact on Thief popularity. People who have played GW2 by using dodge to survive... can't play this class. And lets face it... Dodging to survive is actually the proper way to play GW2... So what are you left with? Stack toughness and Vitality and heal through the cleave of a boss... but do 2.8k DPS when the guy next to you is doing 28k...

Or spend the first x-seconds of every fight "platforming" to a safe spot and then sniper as somebody else eats damage for you...

• Something that will take a very high skill-cap to NOT lose too much DPS over doing... (and presumes there even is a safe spot somewhere).

Stationary classes in MMOs that don't have a trinity with a tank and full-specc'd healer are not going to be popular. Even in games with a full blown trinity... your platform classes have to learn to dodge and move between skill/spell uses... But for Deadeye... you have to leave kneel, move, then kneel again... you can't even tap dodge to get out of it...

Otherwise I actually like the elite spec a lot. But this one... is going to make using it always a test of my willingness to suffer...

A couple points, Bard and machinist wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. It's popularity stayed pretty good even with people complaining. I was there for most of it, so I doubt your claims that it will have a negative impact on the Thief community because of the mobility reasons. I think you are over exaggerating the dodge aspect because I can dodge just fine with it.

There is nothing wrong with platforming while some one else eats the damage to do Sniper damage since that is the point of the class. Stationery classes can make a place here I believe. If I learned to dodge stuff in FF14 on my BLM, I can learn to pull the Deadeye off. I doubt it will be that hard. Just need to adjust your mindset away from melee Thief.