Please do something about permanent stealth

MithranArkanere.8957 · May 12, 2018

Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.

For example, it could be changed to something like this to work better for GW2:

Stealth would be "Unrevealable" and be completely invisible to enemies for only the first 1-3 seconds of its duration, depending on the skill giving it and certain traits and upgrade modifiers. This could be done with a second "Invisible" or "Unrevealable" effect.
- During this "Unrevealable" time, attacking enemies will still end stealth and cause Revealed.
- "Unrevealable" would not make the cloaked character immune to Revealed, it would instead act as Resistance for it. The remaining duration will still apply, but it will do nothing until Unrevealable ends. So if an enemy used one of those PBAoE Revealed skills with a long 4-6s Revealed duration, it'll take effect right away after Unrevealable ends.
- During this time Stealth would be immune to itself too.
- So, for example, Elite skills like Mass Invisibility could give a longer Unrevealable, and Rune of infiltration could finally get an actual use by adding +1s unrevealable to stealth effects on self.
After that initial time, any extra duration would no longer be full invisibility. It would be a 'Revealable' stealth that is partially visible as a faint translucent shimmer, more visible while moving, that allows players that pay attention to see where you are.
- 'Revealable' Stealth would still prevent enemies from targeting cloaked characters and seeing their nameplate and health, homing projectiles would ignore cloaked characters and fly in a straight line if fired in their direction, allowing them to strafe away from their path. NPCs and AI like pets, summons and illusions would not target or follow the cloaked character under revealable Stealth either.
- But non-targeted attacks like cleaves, PBAoEs, ground targeted AoEs and manually aimed projectiles may still hit if done right, just as with the current Stealth as usual. It would just be easier to see where the thief is after some seconds of entering Stealth.
Stealth would no longer stack, using it while under the 'Revealable' portion of stealth would just replace the current stealth with another one, and give the unrevealable effect again. And as mentioned before, using it while under the "Unrevealable" time will do nothing, as the character would be immune to it like when used under Revealed.
- To compensate that it becomes partially visible after a few seconds and that it can no longer stack (sorry sneaky mesmers!), some skills that grant stealth would give a permanent stealth, or an extremely long stealth like 2 , 5 10 mins or more.
- Going into gliding mode would still remove stealth even while Unrevealable, and if mounts ever get added to WvW, mounting would also remove it.

Another possibility that would affect mostly condition builds would be a way to build up revealed without revealing with a single attack, but based on hits dealt and damage done.This would prevent playstyles that basically consist of spamming conditions then waiting under stealth, or also prevent people that you just cloaked to get instantly revealed because they had a projectile mid-flight they couln't stop, improving teamplay with Steatlh.

It could work something like this:

Dealing damage while under stealth would build up a secondary effect that could be called something like "Suspicion".
- The icon could be the gray crosshair from revealed but with a blue question mark instead a red eye.
- This effect would stack to 25 stacks.
- When 25 stacks are reached, all stacks of Suspicion and all Stealth effects are removed, and Revealed is applied for 4s or 3s depending on the game mode.
- Revealed Training will NOT work with Suspicion, only with Revealed as usual.
Sneak Attacks and skills that currently forcefully cause revealed would deal Revealed directly as per usual.
Dealing direct damage to enemies under stealth would deal 20 stacks of Suspicion on critical hits, and 10 stacks on normal hits.
- This change will give a little leeway to allies and when fighting with projectiles. A single hit after getting stealth won't reveal you, so if you are attacking with projectiles and you get stealth between firing a projectile and the projectile hitting, or if an ally gives you stealth right before an attack, you will be less likely to lose stealth instantly before you can react.
Dealing a stack of a condition would give 1 stack of Suspicion.
- And here's the solution of the problem of condition+stealth. Builds that deal many conditions in little time then hide on stealth would no logner work as effectively. With Suspicion introduced, they would still stay safe if they never reach 25 stacks across all conditions, which is too little to kill anyone with a modicum of survivability, and they will have to leave stealth eventually if they want to finish the enemy. And if it's too much or too little, changes can be done for conditions to deal more or less Suspicion, and some non-damaging conditions could even deal no Suspicion, allowing lots of leeway for adjustment.

bq pd.2148 · May 12, 2018

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.
The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.
Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.
your exact change suggestions aside. i disagree with your reasoning.what exactly do you gain by avoiding a conflict? can you win anything in this mode without leaving stealth? you cannot flip anything, you cannot kill any npc/player.if this game had a last man standing mode, then your claimes would be valid or if there could be done anything towards the goal of the mode while remaining in stealth.

avoiding and disengage/reengaging combat, as said above can aswell be done with mobility. so should you as well be prevented from running away from a fight with superior mobility? like when you leave the area were you started the fight without killing your target or dragging it along, you get teleported back to your target or die?

you can discuss stealth openers to be too strong for their tells. for example malicious backstab or some mesmer combos from stealth. but just the fact that you avoid a fight doesnt make you win anything, therefor it is not too strong. more so one has to choose utilities traits etc to have this stealth option and give up offensive potential or defensive potential that would help during the actual fighting.

Swagger.1459 · May 12, 2018

@"BlaqueFyre.5678"

There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld"Remove revealed and stealth yourself.Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s"

You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@"Swagger.1459" said:City of Heroes...
A fully developed stealth system…https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception
Your stealthy “thief” class design…https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker
Had a special stealth skill for every build…https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?You could stack https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide and https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?-Attacking made you lose stealth.-Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.-See this again… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@"Swagger.1459" said:From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?
I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....
-Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.
-Dynamic map systems. http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/
-RvR dungeon. https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths
-30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.
-Attractive Stealth system... https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth
“The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:
Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”
-Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat
“Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker
“Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”
-Not much on Crowd Control https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control but...
“Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”
...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.
I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.
I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

BlaqueFyre.5678 · May 12, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Dralor.3701 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@"Dami.5046" said:yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

But again those pesky facts.

There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

"Remove revealed and stealth yourself.Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s"

You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:City of Heroes...
A fully developed stealth system…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception
Your stealthy “thief” class design…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker
Had a special stealth skill for every build…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?You could stack
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
and
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?-Attacking made you lose stealth.-Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.-See this again…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?
I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....
-Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.
-Dynamic map systems.
http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/
-RvR dungeon.
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths
-30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.
-Attractive Stealth system...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth
“The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:
Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”
-Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat
“Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker
“Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”
-Not much on Crowd Control
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control
but...
“Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”
...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.
I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.
I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

Those pesky facts.

And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

MrForz.1953 · May 12, 2018

@XenesisII.1540 said:Reroll a warrior, double endure pain, on my mark has reveal, greatsword 5 to run away.
Because stealth is broken in this game, it will forever be broken in this game, I'm sure there's an anet dev laughing with glee playing their deadeye ghost sniper recon wars 2.

You know. This 'theme' was the major argument aginst rifle thieves before the sneak peek of the HoT elite specs, it was a heated debate too. I do not know if there's a dev out there laughing with glee about that because it took quite a while for that spec to appear the way it is. On my point of view it feels like they're giving that theme a shot, even if it's quite absurd.

Swagger.1459 · May 12, 2018

@BlaqueFyre.5678Here is another in-context fact...

Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

@Velran.1052 said:It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

BlaqueFyre.5678 · May 12, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Dralor.3701 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@"Dami.5046" said:yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

But again those pesky facts.

There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

"Remove revealed and stealth yourself.Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s"

You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:City of Heroes...
A fully developed stealth system…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception
Your stealthy “thief” class design…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker
Had a special stealth skill for every build…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?You could stack
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
and
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?-Attacking made you lose stealth.-Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.-See this again…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?
I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....
-Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.
-Dynamic map systems.
http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/
-RvR dungeon.
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths
-30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.
-Attractive Stealth system...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth
“The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:
Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”
-Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat
“Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker
“Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”
-Not much on Crowd Control
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control
but...
“Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”
...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.
I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.
I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

Those pesky facts.

And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

Here is another in-context fact...

Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

@Velran.1052 said:It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

Shadowcat.2680 · May 12, 2018

Reveal skills are too scarce and often offer too little utility to slot just on the off-chance one will encounter a stealth reliant foe.

Swagger.1459 · May 12, 2018

@"BlaqueFyre.5678"I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

BlaqueFyre.5678 · May 12, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Dralor.3701 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@"Dami.5046" said:yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

But again those pesky facts.

There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

"Remove revealed and stealth yourself.Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s"

You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:City of Heroes...
A fully developed stealth system…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception
Your stealthy “thief” class design…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker
Had a special stealth skill for every build…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?You could stack
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
and
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?-Attacking made you lose stealth.-Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.-See this again…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?
I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....
-Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.
-Dynamic map systems.
http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/
-RvR dungeon.
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths
-30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.
-Attractive Stealth system...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth
“The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:
Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”
-Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat
“Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker
“Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”
-Not much on Crowd Control
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control
but...
“Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”
...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.
I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.
I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

Those pesky facts.

And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

Here is another in-context fact...

Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

@"Velran.1052" said:It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

you aren’t educating anyone, and still none of your posts quoting me have any bearing on anything I stated again .#context,.#rc, you haven’t disproven the facts I stated, either in regards to my Reveal comments or my posts above.

Still bringing up games that have no bearing on Gw2, so cute, ones a completely dead game so what does that say about that one and the other has been “releasing” for what 4-5 years now? Yeah still zero relevance in regards to Gw2.

googel.3278 · May 12, 2018

nah permanent stealth works wonders, the only thing that needs nerf is scourge. we need more broken mechanics and no hate on teefies!

Swagger.1459 · May 12, 2018

@"BlaqueFyre.5678"I'm helping you, whether you realize it or not. I'm showing you the big picture in hopes to someday show you how to be objective, and open about balance issues and possibilities.

You are absolutely correct there are counters to stealth, so I don't need to disprove anything... However, there is also a counter to being revealed and that's the new gripe happening now... You throw out your rude "pesky facts" comment, so I'm taking the time to educate you about the bigger picture of stealth with my own "facts", so you think in more than 1 dimension about this topic.

BlaqueFyre.5678 · May 12, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Dralor.3701 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@"Dami.5046" said:yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

But again those pesky facts.

There are also some facts that you conveniently ignore...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

"Remove revealed and stealth yourself.Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s"

You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:City of Heroes...
A fully developed stealth system…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Stealth_and_Perception
Your stealthy “thief” class design…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker
Had a special stealth skill for every build…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
And every class could have stealth skills if chosen…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So If everyone had access to stealth, what makes the “thief” class so special?You could stack
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hide
and
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
So what were the counters to all this stealth stuff?-Attacking made you lose stealth.-Walking into an AoE effect made you lose stealth.-See this again…
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception
Pretty cool stealth stuff in this game, and very well implemented. There are definitely some great ideas here to inspire a better stealth system in GW2.

You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw...

@Swagger.1459 said:From the wiki... “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”, and we now know CU, the successor to DAoC, will be launching sometime in 2019... So... I have to directly ask if there are any plans to make sure interest is high, and retention numbers stay strong, for WvW in the future?
I am always very cautious about, and generally avoid, making contrasting comparisons, but the list of features and ideas in CU are appealing to RvR minded players, compared to what is offered in our WvW game mode... Some examples of things that matter to a PvP minded player like me....
-Game engine that can handle up to 300 v 300 v 300 players duking it out in the same area, while still maintaining 30fps.
-Dynamic map systems.
http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/rvr-map/
-RvR dungeon.
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/The_Depths
-30 unique and highly customizable classes built for pvp, that offer various roles for players to play.
-Attractive Stealth system...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Stealth
“The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:
Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.
Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.
Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.
Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.
Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.
Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible.
Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game.”
-Higher TTK and avoidance of 1 shot mechanics...
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Combat
“Renée Machyousky (answering the question about TTK - time to kill): "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take." [4]”
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/VeilWalker
“Alternatively, playing in the style of classical Assassin, the "Lone Wolf", will also be viable - the idea of the design is not to deprive players of options but rather to give them alternatives. Just, there won`t be one-shots or anything close to that - be prepared for longer TTKs (time to kill) than the "average" ones for a Rogue/Assassin in many other games, compensated by other things some of which were already mentioned.”
-Not much on Crowd Control
https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Crowd_Control
but...
“Camelot Unchained's crowd control (CC) will, amongst other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams [1],[2]. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day." [1]”
...I’m going to avoid bringing up some other things because I want to focus on the “meat and potatoes” aspects that are the foundation of RvR and PvP combat. I, personally, do not care about things like housing/castle building, or a bunch of other stuff, but I do really care about a quality pvp experience and if a game development team is attempting to hit all the right “hot buttons”... and are portraying a willingness to make sure the core elements are solid for their target audience.
I’m not requesting that the devs start pouring out lists of ideas for WvW, although it would be cool to have those discussions, I’m just trying to hi-light some things that matter for RvR and PvP game modes... And importantly, some of things I’ve mentioned have been points of contention in GW2.
I just sincerely hope that the team is looking to make sure that WvW, professions and combat mechanics do not remain an afterthought for too long, because that near future game, CU, with roughly a $10m budget, seems to be headed in the right direction... And I’m feeling a lot more faith in the above, as opposed to the team that earned $87 million in 2017, that is only talking about Alliances currently.

Honestly, most players see the fact that stealth, among other things, in this game was not fully developed or even fully considered for competitive gameplay. We are not idiots to these facts.

Wow one skill that can remove two instances of Revealed that has a cast time....

And that has zero bearing on what I stated, at all since I was stating that the majority of classes can reveal players, .#context, .#rc. What you say might be relevant if I said Revealed had no counterplay, but alas I never said such a thing.

Those pesky facts.

And bringing up another game has zero bearing here since you know this is Gw2 and not that Dead game, jut saying...

Here is another in-context fact...

Thread “Please do something about permanent stealth”

@"Velran.1052" said:It's completely unfun to play against, There is almost no counterplay with to it and still allows thieves to deal huge damage bursts and almost instantly go back to stealth. Even stealth traps aren't good enough because deadeye can cleanse revealed. Either completely change the way stacking stealth works or give us a lot more access to the revealed debuff. I mean every class, And atleast 1 skill/utility.

Also, guess you failed to put my wisdom in context...

If you want to defend half-baked combat mechanics and designs being shoved into wvw and spvp then that’s your right, but you’re not fooling or swaying anyone with a working brain.

Again your comments completely miss the mark on what you originally quoted me on, since I was originally replying to someone that said there was no skills that strip or stop mark in game and then someone asked what I meant by the majority of classes, and I told them, again .#context, .#rc.

And again bringing up dead games that have no bearing on this game means nothing since different game designs, different developers and oh yeah one game is completely dead and this one isn’t.

I missed nothing, I'm educating you on the bigger picture because you like those "pesky facts"...

Let's process this because your kinda stuck on "dead game", "no bearing" stuff... "You're also not aware of the fact that another development team created a game where all classes could sit in stealth, and created a fully thought out stealth system, unlike in GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..." and "You're also not aware of the facts that the creators of CU are designing a fully thought out and healthy stealth system for their game. Unlike the GW2 PvE stealth system shoved into spvp and wvw..."

you aren’t educating anyone, and still none of your posts quoting me have any bearing on anything I stated again .#context,.#rc, you haven’t disproven the facts I stated, either in regards to my Reveal comments or my posts above.

Still bringing up games that have no bearing on Gw2, so cute, ones a completely dead game so what does that say about that one and the other has been “releasing” for what 4-5 years now? Yeah still zero relevance in regards to Gw2.

I'm helping you, whether you realize it or not. I'm showing you the big picture in hopes to someday show you how to be objective, and open about balance issues and possibilities.

Not even close since nothing you stated has any bearing or context to anything you quote me saying, .#context, .#rc. maybe if what you stated was at all relevant to anything of what I said but even then.. Yeah nope still wouldn’t be relevant.

Swagger.1459 · May 12, 2018

@"BlaqueFyre.5678""You are absolutely correct there are counters to stealth, so I don't need to disprove anything... However, there is also a counter to being revealed and that's the new gripe happening now... You throw out your "pesky facts" comment, so I'm taking the time to educate you about the bigger picture of stealth with my own "facts", so you think in more than 1 dimension about this topic."

I'm taking the time to generate a healthier discussion about this topic.

BlaqueFyre.5678 · May 12, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@Dralor.3701 said:
@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
@"Dami.5046" said:yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '