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Vallun's Full Analysis of Deadeye Rework Patch


Vallun.2071

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@Elxdark.9702 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I don't understand the hate on the new Silent Scope. Is it because you can't use it for OOC stealth now? I don't think that should be a game breaker and OOC stealth is kind of a crutch (a lot of a crutch). I absolutely love it - it gives me stealth in my build where previously I had none. The one before was super clunky and slow - very adverse to a Thief archetype.

don't get me wrong I actually like the stealth on dodge because it gives more chances to do more plays with rifle BUT not having stealth on kneel is crucial for this spec, we lost the opener and the position which is extremely important in Deadeye.Taking a stealth utility isn't enough while I lost the chance to use an utility that would help me a lot instead.

Yes stealth on kneel was bad in fights because it had a casting time and it immobilized you for a second but still I'd take that anyday instead of this new sniper scope.why do we hate the new mechanic? because it forces us to waste a dodge when we only have 2 and it prevents us to be sneaky around the map because we no longer have the ability to stealth on kneel.

we lost surprise, position, dodge, opener and we gain slightly better kite potential in fights.Revert it please.

My builds didn't even incorporate the old silent scope. Now they do, I like having the option to use a dodge offensively, somewhat like mirage.Don't revert it please.

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@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I don't understand the hate on the new Silent Scope. Is it because you can't use it for OOC stealth now? I don't think that should be a game breaker and OOC stealth is kind of a crutch (a lot of a crutch). I absolutely love it - it gives me stealth in my build where previously I had none. The one before was super clunky and slow - very adverse to a Thief archetype.Repost from another page to highlight the problem with silent scope:"It's not JUST that it makes us choose between losing a dodge to get an offensive damage boost or losing a stealth in order to dodge... it's that even the offensive boost is questionable because the stealth activates at the beginning of the dodge. What that means is that if you were auto-attacking with rifle, and you dodge to stealth so that you can DJ (losing the defensive utility of a dodge in the process), then the projectile from your auto finishes traveling to the target and immediately reveals you. Now you've used a dodge, and a stealth opportunity, and also gained no offensive boost from it at all, wasting three opportunities all at once. I am fine with something being risk reward, but right now the "reward" is too buggy to be worth the opportunity cost of using it in the first place."

Basically it's a risk/reward where the reward isn't as high as the risk because of where during the dodge roll the stealth activates. If it activated after the dodge instead of before, then it wouldn't run as high a risk of immediately being removed and then might actually be usable as intended.

On top of the stipulations on gaining Malice that's in large part why trying to hang with squad play felt even more restricted. I wasn't melting swaths of people but I could contribute by positioning and timing where now it feels like I have to suicide bomb my Mark before they peel away through or behind anyone or anything. To much is reliant on hitting the Marked target and Flare kinda sucks right now. The easier kills I got last night were pretty much 3rnd burst after Mug. If they weren't dead after that they'd be in another zip code in a second. I'm sure we'll all simmer this patch down to something workable and maybe some things will look better after more play time but this is looking bleak for squad play.

It might be better now to use a different weapon on swap to build malice and then swap to rifle for the burst... but then if you're doing that why not just run D/P in the first place which can line up a 5 malice backstab in about 1.5 seconds with Be Quick trait selected over M7. Once you start taking that route, if the goal is to do as much damage burst in as short a time period as possible, you're mostly bypassing the damage boost of Executioner to do a one shot from about 75% enemy HP so it ends up being better to run Trickery for the more constant Initiative damage boost instead.

I have DA and Trick anyway. I use sword with rifle for the topography in WvW since I don't have shortbow but regardless it's kind of dumb for DE's building to avoid rifle as much as possible, especially where it's the only somewhat safe option that won't get you nuked in a second.

@Turk.5460 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I don't understand the hate on the new Silent Scope. Is it because you can't use it for OOC stealth now? I don't think that should be a game breaker and OOC stealth is kind of a crutch (a lot of a crutch). I absolutely love it - it gives me stealth in my build where previously I had none. The one before was super clunky and slow - very adverse to a Thief archetype.

don't get me wrong I actually like the stealth on dodge because it gives more chances to do more plays with rifle BUT not having stealth on kneel is crucial for this spec, we lost the opener and the position which is extremely important in Deadeye.Taking a stealth utility isn't enough while I lost the chance to use an utility that would help me a lot instead.

Yes stealth on kneel was bad in fights because it had a casting time and it immobilized you for a second but still I'd take that anyday instead of this new sniper scope.why do we hate the new mechanic? because it forces us to waste a dodge when we only have 2 and it prevents us to be sneaky around the map because we no longer have the ability to stealth on kneel.

we lost surprise, position, dodge, opener and we gain slightly better kite potential in fights.Revert it please.

My builds didn't even incorporate the old silent scope. Now they do, I like having the option to use a dodge offensively, somewhat like mirage.Don't revert it please.

Option is the word there though, which the old Silent scope gave for positioning and timing. This new version isn't so much as an option as the way use it.

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@kash.9213 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I don't understand the hate on the new Silent Scope. Is it because you can't use it for OOC stealth now? I don't think that should be a game breaker and OOC stealth is kind of a crutch (a lot of a crutch). I absolutely love it - it gives me stealth in my build where previously I had none. The one before was super clunky and slow - very adverse to a Thief archetype.Repost from another page to highlight the problem with silent scope:"It's not JUST that it makes us choose between losing a dodge to get an offensive damage boost or losing a stealth in order to dodge... it's that even the offensive boost is questionable because the stealth activates at the beginning of the dodge. What that means is that if you were auto-attacking with rifle, and you dodge to stealth so that you can DJ (losing the defensive utility of a dodge in the process), then the projectile from your auto finishes traveling to the target and immediately reveals you. Now you've used a dodge, and a stealth opportunity, and also gained no offensive boost from it at all, wasting three opportunities all at once. I am fine with something being risk reward, but right now the "reward" is too buggy to be worth the opportunity cost of using it in the first place."

Basically it's a risk/reward where the reward isn't as high as the risk because of where during the dodge roll the stealth activates. If it activated after the dodge instead of before, then it wouldn't run as high a risk of immediately being removed and then might actually be usable as intended.

On top of the stipulations on gaining Malice that's in large part why trying to hang with squad play felt even more restricted. I wasn't melting swaths of people but I could contribute by positioning and timing where now it feels like I have to suicide bomb my Mark before they peel away through or behind anyone or anything. To much is reliant on hitting the Marked target and Flare kinda sucks right now. The easier kills I got last night were pretty much 3rnd burst after Mug. If they weren't dead after that they'd be in another zip code in a second. I'm sure we'll all simmer this patch down to something workable and maybe some things will look better after more play time but this is looking bleak for squad play.

It might be better now to use a different weapon on swap to build malice and then swap to rifle for the burst... but then if you're doing that why not just run D/P in the first place which can line up a 5 malice backstab in about 1.5 seconds with Be Quick trait selected over M7. Once you start taking that route, if the goal is to do as much damage burst in as short a time period as possible, you're mostly bypassing the damage boost of Executioner to do a one shot from about 75% enemy HP so it ends up being better to run Trickery for the more constant Initiative damage boost instead.

I have DA and Trick anyway. I use sword with rifle for the topography in WvW since I don't have shortbow but regardless it's kind of dumb for DE's building to avoid rifle as much as possible, especially where it's the only somewhat safe option that won't get you nuked in a second.

@Turk.5460 said:I don't understand the hate on the new Silent Scope. Is it because you can't use it for OOC stealth now? I don't think that should be a game breaker and OOC stealth is kind of a crutch (a lot of a crutch). I absolutely love it - it gives me stealth in my build where previously I had none. The one before was super clunky and slow - very adverse to a Thief archetype.

don't get me wrong I actually like the stealth on dodge because it gives more chances to do more plays with rifle BUT not having stealth on kneel is crucial for this spec, we lost the opener and the position which is extremely important in Deadeye.Taking a stealth utility isn't enough while I lost the chance to use an utility that would help me a lot instead.

Yes stealth on kneel was bad in fights because it had a casting time and it immobilized you for a second but still I'd take that anyday instead of this new sniper scope.why do we hate the new mechanic? because it forces us to waste a dodge when we only have 2 and it prevents us to be sneaky around the map because we no longer have the ability to stealth on kneel.

we lost surprise, position, dodge, opener and we gain slightly better kite potential in fights.Revert it please.

My builds didn't even incorporate the old silent scope. Now they do, I like having the option to use a dodge offensively, somewhat like mirage.Don't revert it please.

Option is the word there though, which the old Silent scope gave for positioning and timing. This new version isn't so much as an option as
the
way use it.

It's actually the opposite. The old silent scope - kneeling was the way to use it. Which did not give an option to builds that were not stealth-centric as kneeling was and still is incredibly clunky, slow, and aggrivating. In it's current iteration you do have the option to use it defensively, offensively, or to re-position, regardless of how stealth-oriented your build is. Though changing the stealth to the end of the roll would perfect it. I can dodge to gain stealth and use my malice, or I can dodge to re-position, or I can dodge to...dodge an attack (which also lets me re-position provided a bullet is not in the air). You just can't do it out of combat which IMO is a great change.

The only problem in this trait tier is the loss of Unforgiving as a competitive option.

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@Turk.5460 said:It's actually the opposite. The old silent scope - kneeling was the way to use it. Which did not give an option to builds that were not stealth-centric

the thing with the old silent scope was that, most people did not use it primarily for it's stealth, but more for it's +20% crit chance while kneeling which the basic kneel didnt provide, the stealth was mostly used to proc revealed for bonuses during opener EDITS and people stayed rooted in kneel (so the stealth was barely used, atleast for the then popular raid build for rifle) to sustain DPS doing 1 fillers and DJs and only standing up or dodging to avoid aoes or do mechanics

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@Astyrah.4015 said:

@Turk.5460 said:It's actually the opposite. The old silent scope -
kneeling
was the way to use it. Which did not give an option to builds that were not stealth-centric

the thing with the old silent scope was that, most people did not use it primarily for it's stealth, but more for it's +20% crit chance while kneeling which the basic kneel didnt provide, the stealth was mostly used to proc revealed for bonuses during opener

We didn't lose the crit bonus while kneeling.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@Turk.5460 said:It's actually the opposite. The old silent scope -
kneeling
was the way to use it. Which did not give an option to builds that were not stealth-centric

the thing with the old silent scope was that, most people did not use it primarily for it's stealth, but more for it's +20% crit chance while kneeling which the basic kneel didnt provide, the stealth was mostly used to proc revealed for bonuses during opener

We didn't lose the crit bonus while kneeling.

what i mean to point out was that you were implying/saying that the older silent scope was taken because main rifle DE builds were stealth-centric before, which they weren't.

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After the recent rework I barely use death's judgement now which is a shame as it requires the need to Kneel and dodge to activate the stealth or the shadow meld skill, the worse part is it is pretty clunky when I try to attempt to pull off death's judgement. I do hope they bring back the previous way on how you could access stealth by kneeling!For something they stated that stealth is a centrifugal part of the deadeye, I've not even been accessing stealth at all after this update.

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@CrimsonHorizon.3196 said:After the recent rework I barely use death's judgement now which is a shame as it requires the need to Kneel and dodge to activate the stealth or the shadow meld skill, the worse part is it is pretty clunky when I try to attempt to pull off death's judgement. I do hope they bring back the previous way on how you could access stealth by kneeling!For something they stated that stealth is a centrifugal part of the deadeye, I've not even been accessing stealth at all after this update.

Just FYI you don't have to kneel to gain stealth from dodging - only prerequisite is that you have the Rifle currently equipped. You would only need to kneel to bypass the cooldown after your first dodge.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@CrimsonHorizon.3196 said:After the recent rework I barely use death's judgement now which is a shame as it requires the need to Kneel and dodge to activate the stealth or the shadow meld skill, the worse part is it is pretty clunky when I try to attempt to pull off death's judgement. I do hope they bring back the previous way on how you could access stealth by kneeling!For something they stated that stealth is a centrifugal part of the deadeye, I've not even been accessing stealth at all after this update.

Just FYI you don't have to kneel to gain stealth from dodging - only prerequisite is that you have the Rifle currently equipped. You would only need to kneel to bypass the cooldown after your first dodge.

to add to this, the reworked silent scope right now has no cooldown if you dodge while kneeling and stay knelt, only your endurance will gate you from doing a dodgeroll-stealth... if only it worked reliably in stealthing the user ...

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Also I would be much happier with the new silent scope if it just had a couple changes like i mentioned before, make the stealth at the end of the dodge and make the icd on silent scope not proc if you are revealed so you can dodge normally if you are revealed but not get punished on your icd. I do like how you are more mobile with the new silent scope but i do not like wasting dodges to do a mechanic which does not synergize with dodging at all. To be honest kneel stealth did not feel amazing either so I would definitely be fine with having it how it is now with those couple changes.

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I think silent scope would be better as simply a rifle mechanic rather than tied to a trait. Previously there was the trade-off in the increased initiative cost of kneeling when taking it, but now thats gone its all but mandatory in using rifle. This would free up the middle trait for something like peripheral vision where it slotted in previously. But it seems the direction anet is going is lessening the impact of group buffs in general across all professions, which I think is a good idea. The loss of peripheral vision is a slight dps lose in group play too. I think removing unforgiven was mainly for sPvP balance reasons. Payback is close to useless where it is competing against premeditation and silent scope, maybe if it was part of renewing gaze as a minor trait it'll be a nice extra to have (or in the first lot of traits). I also think the first trait options are all pretty weak and can do with a change-up, especially: one in the chamber (without the ability to share stolen skills) and burst of shadows.

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Simply allowing Silent scope to work out of combat and removing the internal cooldown could work wonders on regaining the sneaky sniper playstyle.instead of running up to a ledge and kneeling like before, you could roll into it with nobody being aware of you.No more clunky kneel/unkneel for pve players and vigor becomes something far more important for deadeye's.

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