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Lack of communication between developers and its player base.


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Hey.So, i'd like to start with introduction.I've been playing guild wars 2 for 3 years now, and there's one thing that's been kind of bothering me and i'd like to start a discussion about it.

It's the - as you can read in the title - lack of communication between developers and the player base, when it comes to balancing and gameplay issues.Now hear me out: I kinda "get it" that "majority" of players that visit [and this word's important] gw2 forums, don't really care that much apart from the occasional "Nerf /split difficulty in raids" [Which i personally find meh, but yknow to each its own]

However, even those posts have a point to them.How?

  • There's never really a serious answer on why anet as company is choosing to go with the ambiguous direction that they are, or - kinder surprise patches, as i like to call them -.

  • Sure, you could argue that they do not owe us anything, and that developers are free to go with the direction of their game as they choose and will.But, i strongly believe that there lies the problem, i kinda "believe" that "you" who's reading this, might be thinking the same thing as well.

There're so many "posts" [be they gw2forum or gw2reddit ones] that're being overlooked by "anet" - and when i say overlooked, i don't mean what you'll say next."We do read them, please rest assured that your feedback is appreciated and will be considered in the future development"

  • Because in all honesty, that's the customer support bullshit 101: When there is no beneficial change to the game.

It's just like "bhaam" here's a patch, we've tinkered with stuff, now you go play, figure it out.Does that feel wrong to you?

I'll talk about PvE skills, because that's the area i'm familiar with,There's one "spell" in the game, that's been insanely OP since beginning of time and that one's called "Epidemic"Majority of the raidselling guilds, and players in general, are using so many scourges it's disgusting - and i do play scourge - on dhuum CM, or lets say, Deimos CM/Xera, because the"Epidemic" is insanely effectiveThus, it's hindering "Scourge" to be properly fixed as either a DPS spec, or support.[However, again in my personal opinion, you can't really have a PvE spec, be a "support" one, when it's dealing insane amount of condition damage, on no matter what it does"

Then we have the "Confusion" issue.In all honesty, i'm most likely the worst chrono/mesmer, in the game, the only thing that i do know how to do is tank and that's enough for me,However i'd say on a one to two week basis, there's a post about Confusion not being properly adjusted in "any" scenario, and again there're no comments regarding any of that.

And now with the Weaver nerf as well - which okay, i do understand - it had it coming -But "not like this"And that's the problem.

I really do wish, there was a better communication between the players and the developers, and that the feedback was actually appreciated.Picture a patch note, in which there's not just "changed this, changed that"But their detailed insight on why the change was made the way it is,Even if it was done with little words as possible: read LoL patch note changes: OP/UPOr the "dream" like WoW/Overwatch ones.We would have a better insight on why the changes are done the way they are - and i believe they'd make you feel more appreciated as a player/customer [to the souls that're purchasing gems with money]

I personally have never bought gems with money, and never will, and in all honesty i'm playing this game as a sort of escape because i consider it to be a free to play one.And do know, that with the ambiguous state the game is in, i'd never buy the monthly sub, and i'm asking "you" the same question who's reading this, would you?

But back to the point.I'd like to leave this post with a bit of "what could be changed"

  • Better communication in the future patches, regarding the development/customisation of professions with the playerbase, if not all of them, at least open a "beta" client, that players can apply to in which the changes can be OPENLY, before they're shipped.[A personal thought, we wouldn't have 2 days of figuring out how to kill normal Dhuum, and more on CM, if there was a beta-test, the difficulty could be scaled or worked at - during that period]

  • Weekly/monthly, thread made by anet, in which they ask us our thoughts on whatever they're working at.

And i'm sure there's plenty of more beneficial words that can be said here.I stream gw2 from time to time, the reason why i'm making this post is, whenever someone complains about anet/raids/classes in generalI tend to tell them that: We're the problem, because we expect way too much from the company that either doesn't know what it wants from itself, or just doesn't want to share with the public.

If you've read all of this, congratulations!Your reward of the day is the following song, youtube: "SING, SING, SING" BY BENNY GOODMAN

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Do agree would love more comms but also aware that developers a lot less likely to give responses as sometimes things don't go the way planned and they get taken to task - "but thy said ....".Do think they attempt the regular chat session but it is very focused and limited in time so not chance to ask or answer much. This issue is not just here but on most games I have seen.Maybe give suggestions of how we could handle this - sandpit to test stuff before it goes live (helps with debugging), a topic per area where we just give requests - no discussion - take that to a separate topic and just have a link in the initial request list. Those just a few ideas - not sure what else might help.Edit: Have seen you had mentioned these in your opening topic - sorry missed them first time through - the beta site and the forum to discuss stuff more frequently.

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I think recently we have pretty good flow of information. I don't see a reason why balance changes should be discussed with the community though. Feedback after changes is welcome but why discussing it before? No player has data or knowledge to make relevant conclusions about required actions.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but as a mostly PvE player, here since shortly after launch, I'm very happy with the state of the game. Most things have improved a lot over the years. I can't imagine going back now and doing without e.g. mounts or gliders. I nearly kill myself most times I visit my home instance by trying to jump off stuff!

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@Sillytune.1580 said:

@"artemis.6781" said:So the game isn't what YOU want, so there must be a "lack of communication".

Second buddy, are you really okay yourself with the current state of the game, and everything that's going on so far?

Yes actually I am. I've been here since launch and the positives definitely outweigh the negatives.

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@"Sillytune.1580" said:

I'd say the real problem is individual users overestimating their importance to the development process, but he ho.

Again, that right there, you're the problem.

I mean no offense, but it's an incredibly caustic mindset to tell people who dare to disagree with you that "they are the problem with the game" in an assumed righteous authority like that.

Granted you can have an opinion like everyone else, but you are not in any position to tell anybody their overall 'place' in the Guild Wars 2 development pageant.

And to clarify: I see quite a bit of communication on these forums from Devs. They are constantly messaging on here with "We are looking at this right now" and "we see this and will be taking a look at it" so I don't think your initial post is accurate. You may be unhappy, and how the game and forums are being run may not be up to your particular standards, but you aren't the GW2 overlord, here.

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@costepj.5120 said:I can't speak for anyone else, but as a mostly PvE player, here since shortly after launch, I'm very happy with the state of the game. Most things have improved a lot over the years. I can't imagine going back now and doing without e.g. mounts or gliders. I nearly kill myself most times I visit my home instance by trying to jump off stuff!

Yep pretty happy too. I'm of the view that Anet have a wider and better view of skills and balances than any individual player given they have access to better data than we do, plus lack the inherent bias each of us will have.

As for overall communication, it can always be better, but it currently is at some of the highest levels in the last 5 years. We know they read them even though they don't always acknowledge (there's one thread praising listening to feedback today to show that, plus one big example is that the Weaver spec came purely from a player idea.).Devs are outnumbered a thousand times over by the population - they can't constantly communicate and develop the game. And seeing how much better the comms here is VS two other MMO's I play, frankly I'm increasingly grateful for what we do get.

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@costepj.5120 said:I can't speak for anyone else, but as a mostly PvE player, here since shortly after launch, I'm very happy with the state of the game. Most things have improved a lot over the years. I can't imagine going back now and doing without e.g. mounts or gliders. I nearly kill myself most times I visit my home instance by trying to jump off stuff!

Yep pretty happy too. I'm of the view that Anet have a wider and better view of skills and balances than any individual player given they have access to better data than we do, plus lack the inherent bias each of us will have.

As for overall communication, it can always be better, but it currently is at some of the highest levels in the last 5 years. We know they read them even though they don't always acknowledge (there's one thread praising listening to feedback today to show that, plus one big example is that the Weaver spec came purely from a player idea.).Devs are outnumbered a thousand times over by the population - they can't constantly communicate and develop the game. And seeing how much better the comms here is VS two other MMO's I play, frankly I'm increasingly grateful for what we do get.

Throwing myself in as well: as a PvE (and casual PvP/WvW) player who has been playing for a few years now I gotta say I am pretty pleased with things. Do I agree with everything anet has done? No, and I doubt I ever will, because that's the nature of opinions. There have been things I suggested that later got implemented. Was it because they read what I said and decided to do it? Who knows. It is certainly possible, I know that the devs do consider the feedback and suggestions they are given, even if they do not respond directly all that often. It could also be coincidence.

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I see it both ways. On one hand, I am very upset with the changes to druid. I think it was a low ball on the part of the devs to drop it on us without warning (if I missed the warning pls let me know where to find it).

On the other hand, the devs don't have time to do everything and make sure we have the inside poop as they go along. They do, however, have a communications team and forum team that could be doing a much better job communicating patch notes in advance. We had similar issues in SWTOR where BW would just drop random class changes with no logic. After a fair bit of backlash from the community, they changed the process so that any class/trait aspects of the patch notes were in advance of patch day so we had time to adjust our gear and spec or ditch the class all together. ;-)

So yea, they need to be communicating, in advance to give their player base a bit of warning before dropping the sledgehammer on professions and traits. I agree, Anet really is one of the most "hands on" developers I have seen. They are actively in the forums with short acknowledgement messages but this patch and the changes that they dropped, kind of felt like a proverbial kick in the giblets and advanced warning should have come with it.

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I think player misconceptions are the biggest problems compounded by the lack of clarity from the devs. The devs communicate but not as much as they need to stomp out a lot of the misinformation that grows to eclipse all the good stuff.

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Because we aren't getting "blind, random content" or "non balanced stuff". You personally believe that, which is your point of view, not everyone elses. I know exactly what kind of game I am playing and I am ecstatic with what is provided for my entertainment on a regular basis by Anet.

As for the last line. This is how businesses and development in general works. All MMO's without exception work from a direction they give themselves and use feedback to help direct that. Most, (Anet included), will add things that don't always align on occasion, but they set the plan and agenda and use feedback to help guide it and that is the correct way for them to run the business. It is def not a huge issue at all, just like it isn't anywhere else. If they never acknowledged or listened to us ever on anything, then the point would be well made, but luckily that isn't the case here.

The problem is, there are thousands of voices all thinking they know better than Anet how the direction of the game should go (or any other company since this argument exists in every game forum), but ultimately, they don't.

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i feel like most of you don't see what a balance patch is for in the first place. Let me explain what I mean:

I think we can all agree that the whole community of GW2 can be devided into a lot of subgroups, respective to the different contents and playstyles there are...

  • open World farm Trains
  • World Bosses
  • Story
  • PvP
  • WvW (roam and Zerg)
  • Dungeons
  • Raids
  • Fassionwarsand to all of these game-modes (more or less) there is and will always be casual AND tryhard/elitist players, no matter what the developers do.

So ... what does a balance patch do?A balance patch adresses problems in the game and tries to tweak the numbers/options/skills in a way so it is in allignment with the balance-teams ideals. E.g if the balance team wants underwater combat to be explored more, they enable more skills to be useable under water. (i liked that change)

But WHO is the balance patch actually for?IMO a player who has always been running around in whatever gear he likes and with weapons he thinks are cool will not suddenly throw over everything because some numbers slightly changed.What i mean is ... in all the above game-modes, casual payers will just do whatever they want and it will be effective to a certain degree, since their goal is to "just play". In this mindset basicaly everything is viable, since concepts like "dps" dont matter at all. You will be able to clear all content and have fun with it and basicaly everything is viable. (which is totaly cool with me, not hating)But to the elitist players which try to optimize everything and need to play refinded builds to compete at the highest lvl this game has to offer, there the skill ceiling of a class/spec/composition will determin its viability. What i mean is ... comparing elitist players, they will have the execution/mecanics/coordination or whatever is needed from the playerside down to "almost" perfect. Therefore their viability and impact in the gamemode they enjoy is highly dependant on the tool they use e.g. build/comp/etc. .So i ask you now. Who do you think balance patches are for, or should be designed around?

If you come to the same conclusion like i do, then you might agree that communication more with the top tier WvW guilds, PvP players or Raid-Speedclear Guilds might be of great value for the whole sub-comunity. Surely they saw the imense Weaver dps in raids, but the way they nerved it (Meteor Sprinkle is just a joke now and doesnt feel good to cast at all), and didn't touch Epidemic at the same time, makes me question what their overall aim is in the game.

IMO if you play a build and have to put a lot of effort or precice execution/reactions into it you should get rewarded for it. On the other hand, if you just mash all buttons blindly off cd and just press Epidemic when someone tells you to ... you get the point.

So my final point is: what is the design philosophy of ANet? What do they want the elitist AND casual aspects (which will always exist) in ALL of the above game-modes look like? Which differences do they see from the current state of the game to their envisioned final form?These are the questions i want the Developers to talk more about. Cause in their balance patches i realy don't see a clear answer to them.

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@OP, were you around the forums when Anet used to announce their plans, then suffered the backlash when everything even somewhat implied (or "promised") didn't turn out as the community expected? That was when Anet quit talking about stuff before it was released, and they've maintained that silence ever since, other than teasers.

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Is this just a nerf epi thread in disguise of asking for more feedback, coz that seems to be the main gripe of yours other than the meteor shower nerf. Never mind that chrono has been meta in all raid comps since inception, or that unique buffs of certain classes put them leagues ahead of others ( banners+spirits).

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@Sephylon.4938 said:Is this just a nerf epi thread in disguise of asking for more feedback, coz that seems to be the main gripe of yours other than the meteor shower nerf. Never mind that chrono has been meta in all raid comps since inception, or that unique buffs of certain classes put them leagues ahead of others ( banners+spirits).

Buddy, i agree with your statement there full-hearthlyI hate that certain buffs are locked behind one profession.I wish they changed the way those buffs are distributed, just like bloodlust/heroism was done in WoW.

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still in an optimal scenario you will chose the "best-inslot" option. the only question is, which class does ANet want to be best in slot.From a raiders perspective when i want to make a raid-squad i go though the following list and chose classes acordingly:

  1. mecanics (do i need certain spells/boons/pushes/etc to be able to clear the encounter efficiently)
  2. survivability (which is kinda a macanic but whatever) wich means how many tanks/healing do i need to just survive
  3. what is the best dps for the encounter (where you have to take personal and buffing dps into account (eg might fury alacrity quickness shareing))

and in the end, i will just choose the class htat is best in slot. if mirage has best dps on cairn then i will just put 4 mirages there. ... or whatever class is as said "best in slot"

so i dint understand why you hate on a singel class. if it wasn't chrono, then it's someone else. but one class will always be "best in slot" and therefore "meta" or whatever you wanna call it.

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