Why does everyone want rev to become skilless?

[chaotic balz.9654]

90% of the posts here are entitled new rev mains who think that just because they get countered here and there that the entire traitline or energy concept needs to be reworked. Why?

[narcx.3570]

@chaotic balz.9654 said:90% of the posts here are entitled new rev mains who think that just because they get countered here and there that the entire traitline or energy concept needs to be reworked. Why?

Because 90% of the revenant community is in it for the lore and wants to role-play as a death knight with a Greatsword from atop their 4000g tp'd bench... They basically want Warrior/Guardian gameplay, but like edgy and with a blindfold... It's really frustrating.

Whats even more frustrating is that the devs listen to them and ruin things further. So much pre-PoF QQ about not having a condi ranged weapon (which is a useless concept for a class that applies all of it's other condis from melee range) led to our awesome short bow, which SURPRISE, is terrible because it has ranged damage scaling on a class that does everything else from melee.

And now everyone crying about not being able to use Jalis underwater on their low level rev led to all of our weapon damage and burst getting decimated to account for Vengeful Hammers now being available underwater.

[LucianDK.8615]

Yup, all the twilight fetishists begging for greatswords so they can be edgelords.Sucks about the Spear, yes, but I find the new trident pretty strong.

[otto.5684]

While many of the posts over state how bad things are, you cannot deny that rev overall is the worst performing class in most game areas. Is it the energy system, lack of dev monitoring, lack of build diversity or failure in design? Not one problem is the cause, but there are issues across the board.

Worst class in the game thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27962/worst-class-in-the-game-right-now/p1, has 556 votes with rev taking 50% of the votes.

I do not have resolutions, but anet taking a 6 month break is not the answer. And saying the vast majority of input is BS is true of any public forum in anything. However, ignoring all input defeats the purpose of the forums, which is feedback and help.

[Set.7461]

I see old faces here posting though it's becoming less common. Old rev mains have pretty much given up posting feedback so what you mainly see is new revs going through the frustrations older players have already been through. The biggest complain I see here is Renegade and how all the feedback given on "beta weekend" have fallen on deaf ears. Go play Renegade in PVP/WVW and come back. The spec was gimped from the start. CC'd Spirits. Yes, ethereal ghosts can somehow get stunned in the physical world. Icerazor ire, not having the ice theme(chill). A guerrilla fighter who can't hit and run. We can go on and on but it's been what? 7 months after PoF launch and all we got for renegade was number tweaks via cast time/dmg. Meanwhile Mesmer gets a complete rework and now deadeye got an overhaul. We got a sidegrade via the sword offhand change and a new underwater weapon. We got trident bois! Rev is saved! -_-

I don't think people want rev to be skilless. I think people want the amount of effort to be more rewarding. And I understand Renegade is decent in PVE. Awaken mobs aren't complaining to ANET. Most of the PVE stuff is on reddit and the PVP/WVW stuff on the forums.

[Rym.1469]

@narcx.3570 said:90% of the posts here are entitled new rev. So much pre-PoF QQ about not having a condi ranged weapon (which is a useless concept for a class that applies all of it's other condis from melee range) led to our awesome short bow, which SURPRISE, is terrible because it has ranged damage scaling on a class that does everything else from melee.

Shortbow isn't terrible because of it's output, it's terrible because it has no logical design behind it.

We asked for a second condition or hybrid weapon because condition rev had no great weaponset to swap from mace/axe. Suggestion for it to be ranged came directly to answer the issue you mentioned - Revenant is melee-oriented but at times you either can't or would rather not melee. Besides, there are many ranged weapons that do great and perform on par with melee weapons - Ranger's shortbow, Necromancer's scepter, Ele's staff.

[BeepBoopBap.2840]

@chaotic balz.9654 said:90% of the posts here are entitled new rev mains who think that just because they get countered here and there that the entire traitline or energy concept needs to be reworked. Why?

Lol entitled is the last thing to call any veteran rev main at this point. This class is underperforming in most if not all game modes. It's a good thing that someone (even if they are new) is suggesting something as opposed to veteran players leaving the class and all conversation stops. Not that the conversation was productive, Anet ignores us even when we call out bad incoming changes like Equilibrium removal and Expose Defenses change.

@narcx.3570 said:

@chaotic balz.9654 said:90% of the posts here are entitled new rev mains who think that just because they get countered here and there that the entire traitline or energy concept needs to be reworked. Why?

Because 90% of the revenant community is in it for the lore and wants to role-play as a death knight

I think of a dark Guardian-Thief myself. I really bought into the Shiro Glint build heh.

[apharma.3741]

The only real issue revs have is that where most classes have a single trait line that gives self sustain and some cleanses rev has....um......er.....salvation?

Corruption is boon removal, condition application and some bizarre mix of random other traits, there’s no real theme here unlike most classes other than it’s all linked in some way to conditions. New pulsating pestilence is great condi management though.Retribution is all about taking less damage but also has some bizarre traits too like steadfast rejuvenation which is just lazy and bad, while pretty much needing either a guard to babysit you or Jalis because you won’t get much use out of it in other legends.

Then we come to salvation. This is in my opinion the biggest reason rev isn’t viable at all. This is similar to other class lines like inspiration, water, alchemy etc except instead of having self sustain or cleansing it has ventari exclusive skills and outgoing healing traits. Put simply there’s not really a trait line for getting consistent self heals and cleanses at the rate other classes have.

Then there’s the energy/cool down issue. I said it in the beta before rev was released, skills should either have a cool down or an energy cost, not both.

I’d love to see energy costs moved off weapons, onto utility skills then replace eluding nullification with a trait that cleanses a condition when you use a skill with an energy cost (or first activate an upkeep skill). I’d love to see some form of health regen trait in salvation too, I feel on legend swap is done to death but could likewise be on energy use, either per energy expended or a flat amount for using a skill that uses energy as above.

Mind you rev would have to take a damage hit on some skills if it gained sustain on par with other classes.

TLDR: There’s just no consistent design throughout the class which is why it’s a total mess that looks like it was designed by fan fiction writers.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I dunno, I like to make suggestions because I think it's important to stay critical. That's not to say that I don't enjoy Revenant in its current iteration, it's just that I think there is stuff that could be polished about the class. 90% of my suggestions have revolved around Ventari because that's the biggest reason I play the class. It is also one of the more forgotten aspects of the class, and an aspect that I think really needs feedback and discussion as it functions so differently than the rest of the class. I don't ever expect any of my ideas to be implemented, but I'd like to at least hope that ANet reads posts here once in a while to get a feeling of how people feel about things. I also just enjoy discussing balance and ideas with others.

[Buran.3796]

@apharma.3741 said:

Mind you rev would have to take a damage hit on some skills if it gained sustain on par with other classes.

TLDR: There’s just no consistent design throughout the class which is why it’s a total mess that looks like it was designed by fan fiction writers.

Then let it root as it is. Underwater Rev was the only part of the class which remained competitive and in only two months the utterly butchered it. For no reason.

I don't even understand the nerf of the spear; adding trindent won't improve the numbers since is just a downgrade, so they just wasted time designing a weapon which won't be used.

[Josif.2015]

@chaotic balz.9654 said:90% of the posts here are entitled new rev mains who think that just because they get countered here and there that the entire traitline or energy concept needs to be reworked. Why?

They have no respect for the revenant. They don't know how to play the profession properly, thinking that fighting mobs is the same as fighting other professions.

[narcx.3570]

@Buran.3796 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

Mind you rev would have to take a damage hit on some skills if it gained sustain on par with other classes.

TLDR: There’s just no consistent design throughout the class which is why it’s a total mess that looks like it was designed by fan fiction writers.

Then let it root as it is. Underwater Rev was the only part of the class which remained competitive and in only two months the utterly butchered it. For no reason.

I don't even understand the nerf of the spear; adding trindent won't improve the numbers since is just a downgrade, so they just wasted time designing a weapon which won't be used.

I think a big part of nerfing the spear damage was to adjust for now having Vengeful Hammers underwater... It probably adds up to be about the same damage vs an underwater AI boss... But unfortunately it rekt us for underwater WvW ganking in the process. :astonished:

[ArthurDent.9538]

@apharma.3741 said:The only real issue revs have is that where most classes have a single trait line that gives self sustain and some cleanses rev has....um......er.....salvation?

Corruption is boon removal, condition application and some bizarre mix of random other traits, there’s no real theme here unlike most classes other than it’s all linked in some way to conditions. New pulsating pestilence is great condi management though.Retribution is all about taking less damage but also has some bizarre traits too like steadfast rejuvenation which is just lazy and bad, while pretty much needing either a guard to babysit you or Jalis because you won’t get much use out of it in other legends.

Then we come to salvation. This is in my opinion the biggest reason rev isn’t viable at all. This is similar to other class lines like inspiration, water, alchemy etc except instead of having self sustain or cleansing it has ventari exclusive skills and outgoing healing traits. Put simply there’s not really a trait line for getting consistent self heals and cleanses at the rate other classes have.

Then there’s the energy/cool down issue. I said it in the beta before rev was released, skills should either have a cool down or an energy cost, not both.

I’d love to see energy costs moved off weapons, onto utility skills then replace eluding nullification with a trait that cleanses a condition when you use a skill with an energy cost (or first activate an upkeep skill). I’d love to see some form of health regen trait in salvation too, I feel on legend swap is done to death but could likewise be on energy use, either per energy expended or a flat amount for using a skill that uses energy as above.

Mind you rev would have to take a damage hit on some skills if it gained sustain on par with other classes.

TLDR: There’s just no consistent design throughout the class which is why it’s a total mess that looks like it was designed by fan fiction writers.

Taking salvation on it's own would already be a massive dps loss so there is absolutely no reason to reduce revenant damage unless everything else is massively nerfed first. Right now the invocation devestation herald is a full glass canon build which does good damage compared to the bruiserish pvp meta builds. But when compared to other glass canon builds like fire air Weaver, crit strikes deadly arts dd, explosives firearms holosmith, Domi dueling mesmer, radiance valor dh, etc. Then the damage is on the low end. Just check the pve benchmarks which even feature over 50% more damage on precision strike and double damage on sotm yet power rev isn't even listed because it's damage is too low.

[apharma.3741]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The only real issue revs have is that where most classes have a single trait line that gives self sustain and some cleanses rev has....um......er.....salvation?

Corruption is boon removal, condition application and some bizarre mix of random other traits, there’s no real theme here unlike most classes other than it’s all linked in some way to conditions. New pulsating pestilence is great condi management though.Retribution is all about taking less damage but also has some bizarre traits too like steadfast rejuvenation which is just lazy and bad, while pretty much needing either a guard to babysit you or Jalis because you won’t get much use out of it in other legends.

Then we come to salvation. This is in my opinion the biggest reason rev isn’t viable at all. This is similar to other class lines like inspiration, water, alchemy etc except instead of having self sustain or cleansing it has ventari exclusive skills and outgoing healing traits. Put simply there’s not really a trait line for getting consistent self heals and cleanses at the rate other classes have.

Then there’s the energy/cool down issue. I said it in the beta before rev was released, skills should either have a cool down or an energy cost, not both.

I’d love to see energy costs moved off weapons, onto utility skills then replace eluding nullification with a trait that cleanses a condition when you use a skill with an energy cost (or first activate an upkeep skill). I’d love to see some form of health regen trait in salvation too, I feel on legend swap is done to death but could likewise be on energy use, either per energy expended or a flat amount for using a skill that uses energy as above.

Mind you rev would have to take a damage hit on some skills if it gained sustain on par with other classes.

TLDR: There’s just no consistent design throughout the class which is why it’s a total mess that looks like it was designed by fan fiction writers.

Taking salvation on it's own would already be a massive dps loss so there is absolutely no reason to reduce revenant damage unless everything else is massively nerfed first. Right now the invocation devestation herald is a full glass canon build which does good damage compared to the bruiserish pvp meta builds. But when compared to other glass canon builds like fire air Weaver, crit strikes deadly arts dd, explosives firearms holosmith, Domi dueling mesmer, radiance valor dh, etc. Then the damage is on the low end. Just check the pve benchmarks which even feature over 50% more damage on precision strike and double damage on sotm yet power rev isn't even listed because it's damage is too low.

A lot of revs damage comes from its ability to easily stack and maintain 25 might, if you went salvation, invo and herald you would still be doing really high damage because most of revs current damage comes from invo, mostly roiling mists and incensed response. Rev can very easily do 10k on most of its abilities which goes down only a little bit by not taking devastation to about 8-9k when I was testing if corruption could be a viable switch up for destruction to deal with conditions.

Still doesn’t change that most of revs issues come down to no consistent design philosophy and where traits are designed for specific legends not for the needs of the class.