Anet, Please Just Tell Us You're Listening

[Turk.5460]

@Astyrah.4015 said:

@"Turk.5460" said:Don't be that guy...don't use statistics for

your

argument only. How many of those PvE players even step food into raids? I'll bet you not even 5% of players. And that's really only where DPS seems to matters to people. Because I can certainly tell you that DPS does not matter in fractals, I've never been kicked from a fractal group, of any tier, due to lack of DPS, and boy will I be the first to tell you that mine is terrible - though I've never felt that i haven't been "pulling my weight."

(What percentage of players do you think even set up a gw2efficiency.com account?)

• you should atleast strive for self improvement rather than being content at mediocrity (at least that's what im getting from you).

I'm of the opinion that PvE is mediocrity, and people who get upset over anything PvE-gameplay related, especially damage output of fellow video game players - rather than their enjoyment of the game, are insane.

[Turk.5460]

It seems this game has turned into WoW for some players and they have started treating it like it is their job, rather than an entertaining video game.

[Tunagod.8396]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"RicochetXD.4128" said:At this point I don't care if you give us an answer you don't like, but people have been complaining about the new DE mechanics since they launched. They don't work. They're broken. There's pages and pages of reasons on it.

And we haven't heard a peep from you.

Please just respond to this thread and let us know you're listening. Even if your answer is "I'm not going to change anything", that's an improvement to this silence. And I would presume most people on the forums agree.

People have also been praising them. Chill out, just because some people don't like it doesn't mean

everyone

doesn't. The forum users make up a

fraction

of actual players, and I've heard nothing but good things from my friends in-game. Though this is speaking from a purely WvW-Perspective.

How about you go check the main post. You only have around 10 people praising them on that post since release. So the majority doesn't like a lot of parts of the changes or has a huge problem with it.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Tails.9372 said:

@RicochetXD.4128 said:people have been complaining about the new DE mechanics since they launched. They don't work. They're broken. There's pages and pages of reasons on it.

And we haven't heard a peep from you.People have been complaining about how underperforming P/P is for years and did they ever respond to any of the complaints? Or even explain any of the more questionable changes like the removal of the ricochet trait? Exactly, don't be suprised if it's the same thing here.

Actually, they've probably directly addressed complaints around P/P more than any other kit in the game to be honest. Particularly since HoT. AA increase, Unload damage increase, boon gains, initiative cost reduction... a lot.

D/D and SA have needed reworks literally since 2012.

The issue is that in most cases, they've either addressed the wrong ones or because of how the weapon skills work there's basically nothing to do without a total re-design of the weapons. In which case, that requires redesign to basically every thief weapon, which we all know for damned sure people would freak out about if suddenly something became less viable. Especially D/P. Remember when HS got its distance normalized and the camera angle bug fixed? Complaints everywhere!

And to be honest, a lot of people, myself included, despite not being PvE particpants, are disagreeing with a number of the changes and the changes overall because the implementation is really just silly. All it did was move one problem to a different weapon set, make it even more of a problem than it was before, and make both problems have even less counterplay.

The intent was good. The implementation is horrible.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@RicochetXD.4128 said:people have been complaining about the new DE mechanics since they launched. They don't work. They're broken. There's pages and pages of reasons on it.

And we haven't heard a peep from you.People have been complaining about how underperforming P/P is for years and did they ever respond to any of the complaints? Or even explain any of the more questionable changes like the removal of the ricochet trait? Exactly, don't be suprised if it's the same thing here.

Actually, they've probably directly addressed complaints around P/P more than any other kit in the game to be honest. Particularly since HoT. AA increase, Unload damage increase, boon gains, initiative cost reduction... a lot.

D/D and SA have needed reworks literally since 2012.

The issue is that in most cases, they've either addressed the wrong ones or because of how the weapon skills work there's basically nothing to do without a total re-design of the weapons. In which case, that requires redesign to basically every thief weapon, which we all know for damned sure people would freak out about if suddenly something became less viable. Especially D/P. Remember when HS got its distance normalized and the camera angle bug fixed? Complaints everywhere!

And to be honest, a lot of people, myself included, despite not being PvE particpants, are disagreeing with a number of the changes and the changes overall because the implementation is really just silly. All it did was move one problem to a different weapon set, make it even more of a problem than it was before, and make both problems have even less counterplay.

The

intent

was good. The

implementation

is horrible.

Your also excluding those who enjoy the changes, which is a lot as well. At this point Anets best option is to give the rework a few months and QoL improvements before reevaluating.

Though honestly, I love the way DE is now, more so than DD. In some aspects, DE is objectively worse. But it's a lot more fun and engaging to play - which matters more. And lastly, the changes actually opened up far more build options than thief has had before.

You can even comfortably leave trickery behind for something else.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I'm saying that. I'm saying not everyone who plays PvP and WvW is happy and that from my experience talking with people, most aren't.

The people enjoying it are generally just people who enjoy abusing the hell out of excess power and poor game design for cheese wins.It's not so much that more builds opened so much as older builds which finally rotated a little bit out of the meta are now dominant again as well as some anti-fun cheese, while the same kits in mediocre positions and healthy play patterns are still mediocre and under-performing.

The patch didn't actually change anything in the PvP landscape. D/P DE is still bad in sPvP compared to Daredevil due to the lack of mobility and higher magnitude of counterplay via the current meta. D/P permastealth OHKO cheese is stronger than it's ever been before in WvW, and it was still a hell of a strong build prior to the changes. SA no-trickery has been around forever. All DE did was just make it easier to play to auto-win fights.

The only buff here was to people playing D/P in WvW who want in on the one-shot-kill train but without any real risk, and bad rifle players who couldn't reliably DJ before because it now has so little counterplay. And that's a tiny minority of thieves who just want to have power fantasies versus needing to execute skilled play.

[Arlowslol.1974]

@Tunagod.8396 said:

@"Arlowslol.1974" said:Are you "PVE" player just care about the number, not the mechanic ?

This new malice system is 100% better than before, I am not joking . It just the some detail have some problem(like silent scope got stealth at the beginning of dodge)

number is easy to change, are you "PVE" player still stuck in the numbers? As a PVP player I finish all raid every weekend afternoon, easy game. it's no doubt that the new system is good for the DE, so dont fuxking complain like a idiot

I don't know who your question was directed at but I only play WVW. This is a Mechanics problem. They have removed the draw of the rifle from the elite class with it. This new malice system is not in the spirit of the class. Sure you get to be more interactive but that is not what the classes intended play was till now. On top of that this shouldn't be limiting and nerfing rifle play style and giving a buffs to the other weapons with this

SPECIALIZATION

. They turned the play of this class on its head, My favorite description of this I will quote "Not only is it like suddenly your car operates differently - your pedals steer, your steering wheel brakes and accelerates, and your back mirror is actually the windscreen and the windscreen your back mirror. Try to drive now. You can adapt, after crashing 100 times. But before that happens, you probably lost the will to drive in the first place.".

LOL，they nerf the "Mark and sit in stealth untill 7 malice and DJDJDJDJDJD" build , for the health of the game.

This play style should deleted at all.

[Aistos.5174]

You are right, too much DJ spam is bad for the game.

But to take out the DJ spam you can just make the ini cost of it higher, but you don‘t have to take apart the whole skill system of the rifle DE. Btw now you still can spam DJ four times easily with 2 evasions and 2 times shadow meld if you want so...

[ZDragon.3046]

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Pve i love it. It works. its more interactive than it was before especially with rifle.Pvp Its not my cup of tea. But the again theif in pvp in general has not been my cup of tea since the core days before the x packs.

How can you love a change that nerfs your already competitively low PVE DPS?

Simple i dont play thief in pve at the highest levels. I dont use it to do end game content or expect to hit the highest dps. Things it did do more was allow me to have less moments with rifle where im just auto attacking. THAT WAS VERY DULL AND BORING.

That said i can understand how you feel if you main a thief and you are looking it at down to the very number ( im not)

Why do I keep seeing one or two PVE players praising this when Rifle DPS is now at 26K and D/D is reaching 31K DPS on a spec that's designed around the Rifle?>

I could say the same about why condi reaper performs so much better than power reaper when its suppose to be a power / brawler spec.For that you will have to ask anet i dont know what they are doing on that part.

As stated i mostly play rifle when i play thief in pve not d/d

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

You're complaining about something people haven't adjusted to yet to find optimal techniques and strategies for in fractals...You also make it sound like you always need to be stealthed... When really you only need to be in it for a split second. Are you sure you're confident enough about your complaints when a week hasn't even past?

1) It's already been tested on golem, D/D outdoes Rifle by nearly 6K DPS

Consider the fact that with a d/d you are in your foes face as oppose to rifle being at ranged you shouldnt be doing more arugably from a distance anyways. Anet touched on this when the specialization was revealed. The balance between doing ranged dps and melee dps should not be out balanced

2) The fact that DJ is now walled behind Stealth IS part of the reason Rifle is losing so much DPS

I dont know about that to be honest. I think its because it takes more time to get a max damage DJ not because its behind stealth.Before once you hit max stacks you fired JD as often as you could for the duration of your max malice. Now the moment you use it once your malice is gone and you have to take time to rebuild it. Which makes the play style more interactive than just waiting and making the choice not to use initiative to fire it off when it can do the most damage or firing it off and then not being able to do any other skills due to initiative burn from spamming DJ at its highest potential up time.

Maybe you should consider play style instead of just raw numbers on a golem before you start making such bold statements to other people.

[Turk.5460]

@Aistos.5174 said:You are right, too much DJ spam is bad for the game.

But to take out the DJ spam you can just make the ini cost of it higher, but you don‘t have to take apart the whole skill system of the rifle DE. Btw now you still can spam DJ four times easily with 2 evasions and 2 times shadow meld if you want so...

Uhh, sure? Is it as powerful as spamming it before? lol no, not even slightly. Did you forget that a successful hit eats up your malice?

[Aistos.5174]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Aistos.5174 said:You are right, too much DJ spam is bad for the game.

But to take out the DJ spam you can just make the ini cost of it higher, but you don‘t have to take apart the whole skill system of the rifle DE. Btw now you still can spam DJ four times easily with 2 evasions and 2 times shadow meld if you want so...

Uhh, sure? Is it as powerful as spamming it before? lol no, not even slightly. Did you forget that a successful hit eats up your malice?

No I didn't forget (how could I, the nightmare didn't end yet). I just wanted to say that the stealth isn't the limiting factor here. They could for example have left all as it was (rifle skill bar) and just added malice consumption by DJ (maybe even in combination with new malice system). Or raised the malice cost of DJ to 8. You would have had the same effect regarding DJ spamming without this annoying need for dodge to stealth, stealth for DJ and without this ridicilous smoke wall. Additionally we would have cursed bullet back which wasn't that bad over all.That would make DE already much more fun to play again for me. I'm also not a big fan of using the same skill three times in a row.

Edit: Well three times, it was never possible to use DJ five times in a row...

[Curennos.9307]

My DPS is the same before and after the patch - around 21k with just exotic gear, no food, strength rune instead of scholar because I'm poor, etc etc, just ran in there and shot the golem. I screwed up my autos a lot as well this time around (for some reason they just randomly stopped), and was not at all used to stealthing to fire off DJ. Used rifle the whole time.

I wish they'd give backstab and DJ the blurred frenzy treatment though. Maybe TRB too. Make it do absolutely massive damage in pve, nerfed back to reasonable levels in pvp.

[Zephyr.5382]

@"Arlowslol.1974" said:LOL，they nerf the "Mark and sit in stealth untill 7 malice and DJDJDJDJDJD" build , for the health of the game.

This play style should deleted at all.

@"Aistos.5174" said:You are right, too much DJ spam is bad for the game.

But to take out the DJ spam you can just make the ini cost of it higher, but you don‘t have to take apart the whole skill system of the rifle DE. Btw now you still can spam DJ four times easily with 2 evasions and 2 times shadow meld if you want so...

DJ spam is bad for whom? "The game?" No, I don't think so. I'm guessing you meant just for PvP/WvW players. Some of us enjoy playing an actual, you know, sniper in PvE. Oh, but how dare people have different opinions and preferences! shakes fist

[Aistos.5174]

@Zephyr.5382 said:

@"Arlowslol.1974" said:LOL，they nerf the "Mark and sit in stealth untill 7 malice and DJDJDJDJDJD" build , for the health of the game.

This play style should deleted at all.

@"Aistos.5174" said:You are right, too much DJ spam is bad for the game.

But to take out the DJ spam you can just make the ini cost of it higher, but you don‘t have to take apart the whole skill system of the rifle DE. Btw now you still can spam DJ four times easily with 2 evasions and 2 times shadow meld if you want so...

DJ spam is bad for whom? "The game?" No, I don't think so. I'm guessing you meant just for PvP/WvW players. Some of us enjoy playing an actual, you know,

sniper

in PvE. Oh, but how dare people have different opinions and preferences!

shakes fist

I meant PvP/WvW with it, your are right; I should have mentioned. Only wanted to say it's understandable that as a (human) player getting 3 DJ in the face doesn't seem like too much fun.And I still don't like how these changes were made at all, I think as you do...

[TwiceDead.1963]

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Pve i love it. It works. its more interactive than it was before especially with rifle.Pvp Its not my cup of tea. But the again theif in pvp in general has not been my cup of tea since the core days before the x packs.

How can you love a change that nerfs your already competitively low PVE DPS?Why do I keep seeing one or two PVE players praising this when Rifle DPS is now at 26K and D/D is reaching 31K DPS on a spec that's designed around the Rifle?>

You couldn't be anymore wrong. It's not designed Around the rifle. Deadeye as a traitline, get's rifle as a new weapon, and a SINGULAR trait dedicated to it... That's it, and claiming that this singular trait makes the entire traitline dedicated to Rifle, is like saying Acrobatics is designed around sword because you get one trait that benefits that weapon, or that Daredevil is designed around the staff because of the one trait exclusive to it. It implies that an entire traitline is made to benefit a single weaponset, which is obviously not the case. The rest of the entire Deadeye traitline benefits all the other weapon-sets just as much if not more than Rifle does, the same goes for other traitlines.

[Aistos.5174]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Pve i love it. It works. its more interactive than it was before especially with rifle.Pvp Its not my cup of tea. But the again theif in pvp in general has not been my cup of tea since the core days before the x packs.

How can you love a change that nerfs your already competitively low PVE DPS?Why do I keep seeing one or two PVE players praising this when Rifle DPS is now at 26K and D/D is reaching 31K DPS on a spec that's designed around the Rifle?>

You couldn't be anymore wrong. It's not designed

Around

the rifle. Deadeye as a traitline, get's rifle as a new weapon, and a SINGULAR trait dedicated to it... That's it, and claiming that this singular trait makes the entire traitline dedicated to Rifle, is like saying Acrobatics is designed around sword because you get one trait that benefits that weapon, or that Daredevil is designed around the staff because of the one trait exclusive to it. It implies that an entire traitline is made to benefit a single weaponset, which is obviously not the case. The rest of the entire Deadeye traitline benefits all the other weapon-sets just as much if not more than Rifle does, the same goes for other traitlines.

I‘m with you you should also be able to play DE with other weapons. But you can‘t justify bad changes of the DE traitline for the rifle by saying it‘s all ok because the other weapons work fine with it (especially if this is the only trait which enables rifle to a class).

[TwiceDead.1963]

@Aistos.5174No worries, I'll refrain from saying that. I do agree that Rifle players in PvE got somewhat shafted with this change, putting it nicely...

[Tashigi.3159]

Of course other weapons should be playable with the traitline. But the fact of the matter is that this spec UNLOCKS a fucking Rifle and that's kinda one of the main selling points.Now you have a melee setup outdoing the advertised ranged weapon/lore behind this spec by nearly 6K DPS, more if the new stealth mechanic glitches and you can't DJ.

[RicochetXD.4128]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:@"Aistos.5174"No worries, I'll refrain from saying that. I do agree that Rifle players in PvE got somewhat shafted with this change, putting it nicely...

"Somewhat"

[TwiceDead.1963]

@RicochetXD.4128 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:@"Aistos.5174"No worries, I'll refrain from saying that. I do agree that Rifle players in PvE got somewhat shafted with this change, putting it nicely...

"Somewhat"mhm.

@TwiceDead.1963 said:putting it nicely...

[Arlowslol.1974]

@Zephyr.5382 said:

@"Arlowslol.1974" said:LOL，they nerf the "Mark and sit in stealth untill 7 malice and DJDJDJDJDJD" build , for the health of the game.

This play style should deleted at all.

@"Aistos.5174" said:You are right, too much DJ spam is bad for the game.

But to take out the DJ spam you can just make the ini cost of it higher, but you don‘t have to take apart the whole skill system of the rifle DE. Btw now you still can spam DJ four times easily with 2 evasions and 2 times shadow meld if you want so...

DJ spam is bad for whom? "The game?" No, I don't think so. I'm guessing you meant just for PvP/WvW players. Some of us enjoy playing an actual, you know,

sniper

in PvE. Oh, but how dare people have different opinions and preferences!

shakes fist

NO, you are wrong . I play all 3 gamemode and finish all raid every week. I understand thief more than you . even prepatch thief doesnt output a high damage.

but DE have a BAD mechanics before, without the mailce rework,DE wont get fix. now they fix the mechanics ,then NUMBERS is easy to due with. just increase the damageof auto attack/TRB/DJ in PVE then problem sovles. you can ask Anet for this and I'm with you.

[Zephyr.5382]

@Arlowslol.1974 said:

NO, you are wrong . I play all 3 gamemode and finish all raid every week. I understand thief more than you .

I'm very happy for you. And this affects my enjoyment of the deadeye rifle gameplay how, exactly? I'll wait.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

Please see this thread for recent comments by developers. That's a good place to share your thoughts, as well.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Tails.9372 said:

@RicochetXD.4128 said:people have been complaining about the new DE mechanics since they launched. They don't work. They're broken. There's pages and pages of reasons on it.

And we haven't heard a peep from you.People have been complaining about how underperforming P/P is for years and did they ever respond to any of the complaints? Or even explain any of the more questionable changes like the removal of the ricochet trait? Exactly, don't be suprised if it's the same thing here.

Yeah, P/P was terrible for years before it finally received a bunch of buffs to make it at least usable. What's worse is that the main reason it was terrible was very obvious and not that complex (Vital Shot was majorly undertuned, which broke the Initiative mechanic by forcing players to continuously dump all of it into Unload, which in turn massively gutted your mobility AND any utility offered by the set).

Thankfully it did finally (after over 3 years) get enough of an overhaul to be functional, but I still don't understand why it took so long OR why Ricochet was removed. That continues to feel nonsensical even after all this time.

In truth, this is something the game hasn't really fully learned from - there's really no compensating for having an undertuned autoattack on a weapon. This is particularly true for Thieves due to Initiative, but it's also true more generally. I've been advocating for normalization of these for a long time. A lot have been buffed over the years, but some are still pointlessly weak, which relegates those sets into being highly situational if not downright useless.

[pelle ossa.9705]

i think the problem is anet want to follow the flavour od the sniper... and they did DE with that targhet but they didn't pay attention on how sniper doesn't fit in gw2 combat and in general what was the beat for thief in general... instead of a sniper why not a bounty hunter: rifle yes , but close-mid range with Survival skill type... i undestand that siper flavour is cool and stuff , but sometimes easy thing are simply better