Death's Judgment Should Not Be Unblockable

[Shadowcat.2680]

Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

You counter it by dodging, just like everything else. You can still counter it with Invincibility and Barrier. IMO, all stealth attacks should be unblockable. You can't block what you can't see.

[Shadowcat.2680]

Typically when GW2 has a profession that deals high damage with projectiles (pistol/pistol thieves, longbow rangers, rifle warriors, etc), those professions can be punished with reflects or have their damage negated through blocking, forcing the professions to either make themselves unblockable through a skill or trait or to be aware of when their opponent is reflecting/blocking.

Death's Judgment is unusual for being an unblockable outright and promotes braindead spam of the attack whereas needing something like Basilisk Venom to go through a block or reflect would be more consistent with other high damage projectile skills in the game (Rapid Fire, Unload, Kill Shot, Gunflame, etc).

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

You do understand that Thief can no longer spam a instadeath bullet now, right? It being unlockable makes the skill far more reliable and fair for the thief to use now. Not to mention it needs to built up again after use.

If you want counter play, dodge, take cover, reveal the thief before he strikes (people apparently forgot they got skills to reveal cloaked enemies...) or use projectile hate. Thief can't spam aegis, block, barrier, reflect, or whatever like everyone else.

[DeceiverX.8361]

It may be less-spammy but in no way is it not spammy in general. OP's point is absolutely valid.

M7 refunds the initiative (cost) of the three attacks needed to actually get the max malice and stealth sources (dodge) on thief match that or exceed that of most other professions via SoA and boons gained via Vigor from hitting max stacks with M7. The answer of "just dodge roll" is only valid to classes with high vigor uptime and means to negate follow-up attacks and catch the thief with stealth and shadowsteps with increased burst frequency and generally higher mobility due to not needing to use Kneel.

It wouldn't be so big of a problem if M7 didn't refund initiative or if TRB also did crazy damage. But TRB is a style of play some wanted to opt for, and even that was basically removed entirely.

DJ has way more opportunities to be casted and way fewer opportunities to be shut down than prior with good play by the opponent. And of course, MBackstab is completely out of hand.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:It may be less-spammy but in no way is it not spammy in general. OP's point is absolutely valid.

M7 refunds the initiative (cost) of the three attacks needed to actually get the max malice and stealth sources (dodge) on thief match that or exceed that of most other professions via SoA and boons gained via Vigor from hitting max stacks with M7.

It wouldn't be so big of a problem if M7 didn't refund initiative or if TRB also did crazy damage. But TRB is a style of play some wanted to opt for, and even that was basically removed entirely.

DJ has way more opportunities to be casted and way fewer opportunities to be shut down than prior with good play by the opponent. And of course, MBackstab is completely out of hand.

I respect that. But you're a bit off with the reasoning. Remember that the thief still needs to beef up the attack, and to do so deal damage with initiative.

The main problem is that not all of thiefs skills ever land. And if they have a second part, that is almost never guranteed. And assuming they do land they must deal damage. Blocked skills will not contribute to malice generation. As for how quickly thief can build it, it is never in the thief's interest to spam his attacks in quick succession unless they are sure it will kill.

The math is a bit off too. M7 will not refund 3 attacks. Assuming thief successfully lands three skills, it will only refund 2 skills. The minimum for thief's damaging abilities is 3. The highest is 6 or 5.

So 2 skills and 1 ini. Or 2 skills. Or two skills and a deficit. You need at minimum three skills that hit twice and one skill. Or seven skills.

Assuming minimum cost 24 initiative in totalAssuming highest 35.

And that's if all skills land.

If you're not a thief main, let me tell you this. You don't have a lot of init. You certainly don't have enough to facetoll 1-5. It comes back slowly. It is your defense (active), it is your outplay, it is your damage, it is your combos, it is your utility, and it is your mobility. If you run out, you're a dead thief. And you -will- burn it up fast.

You can severely delay how quickly a thief can ramp up damage and even force them to deplete their malice early.

Remember also that thieves tend to use their skills heavily for utility. More than any other class infact, so this heavily effects their ability to generate malice. Their actual utilities are more on the lines of very situational game changers.

If the thief is able to be that aggressive, have weakened defences, and stay alive, he should be rewarded greatly

TLDR: it's more expensive than you think for thief to charge M7. You got a while before a thief can attempt to nuke you hard.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The math is correct - you're not accounting for initiative regeneration and cast times.

Unless under the effects of quickness, passive initiative regeneration will cover the remaining initiative while making those three attacks as this requires 1.5s for the three attacks without accounting for precast and aftercast delays or the animation to acquire stealth and cast DJ which is free. Aside from some kind of Haste + Blinding Powder combo, there's physically no way for a thief to not regen its initiative to max from M7 with Skirmisher's Shot. Even if using DT as a source, if using SScope, there are .75*3+.75 = 3s of animations without account for pre-cast/aftercast delays from skill use alone which sets the thief back a whopping... 2 initiative at the end with M7. That's assuming DT is just completely spammed with zero attack delay. So the thief after the DJ is <= 1 initiative actually spent using M7's recovery.

So all we've really concluded here is that unless you can negate all of the damage leading up to closing in on the thief, it can max malice every 4s, ignores single blocks and blinds via DT as far as gaining malice goes, and doesn't need to kneel for any purpose while still out-pacing the rotation on every build in the game that doesn't have permanent vigor with an unblockable nuke.

It's extremely poorly-thought-out and offers way, way less counterplay than prior.

[The Hat.1493]

I'd say theres more counterplay in a way, since if you can stop a Deadeye from going into stealth with revealed effects? You can stop them from even using Death's judgement.Theres plenty of revealing effects in most professions toolkits and its got the large laser of; "incoming unblockable shot, dodge now!" so theres plenty of time to react.

[bq pd.2148]

the requirement to be in stealth means aside from another tell, that you cant spamm it as much as before the patch. before the patch you remained at max malice and needed to regain 6 ini to cast, that is passively generated nothing the target can do against it. now you need to get back in stealth wich is either gated behind utilities/mark wich can aside from blinding powder (32-40s cd) all be interrupted , with smoke + leap / CnD wich can be interrupted or with dodge wich is gated behind endurance just like evading the shot. before the patch you could just use DJ out of perma invis -> missed, 1-2 AA to switch enemy stance from defending to attacking and next DJ. if needed use shadow step to avoid incoming hits - that worked in most cases were the 1. DJ didnt land. now if i want to do the same i need to wait till reveal is gone, then use an evade wich will stop my opponent from attacking, it is alot easier to hit someone who is trying to hit you then someone who is trying to not get hit.

if you really want to oneshot you will build malice up with occasional spotters shots from rifle on max range and then MBackstab. DJ is just a waste of stealth in a oneshot build.

[Turk.5460]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

So you're ready for the unblockable nature to be traded for:

-No reveal on cast-No visual laser cue-No audio cue-No longer immobilizes the Thief for the cast

OK that's fine, I can get behind that :)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

[bq pd.2148]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

yup this.

if you stealth camp for ages for the one oneshot - you will allways go backstab over DJ : higher damge and doesnt fail as often.

[Urejt.5648]

Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight

[bq pd.2148]

@Urejt.5648 said:Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight

you forgot bodyblock and interrrupt.reflect is ignored by unblockable projectiles we can now fire into them with DJ.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@"Shadowcat.2680" said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.

And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.

So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.

[Turk.5460]

Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.

And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.

So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.

Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify weapon skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).

Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.

@Turk.5460 said:Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.

As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.

And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.

So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.

Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify

weapon

skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).

Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.

@Turk.5460 said:Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.

As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.

In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.

So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.

It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.

[DeceiverX.8361]

While I won't comment on the rest because I've already explained why the magnitude of counterplay is so much lower than prior, c'mon Blaq, you know well the argument about stripping stealth carries no water with DE due to Meld.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.

And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.

So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.

Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify

weapon

skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).

Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.

@Turk.5460 said:Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.

As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.

In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.

So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.

It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.

And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.

So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.

Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify

weapon

skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).

Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.

@Turk.5460 said:Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.

As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.

In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.

So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.

It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.

No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.

Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.

And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.

So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.

Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify

weapon

skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).

Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.

@"Turk.5460" said:Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.

As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.

In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.

So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.

It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.

No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.

Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.

Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.

As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.

If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.

Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.

Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.

Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.

You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?

Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.

So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.

And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.

So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.

Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify

weapon

skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).

Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.

@"Turk.5460" said:Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.

As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.

In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.

So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.

It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.

No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.

Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.

Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.

As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.

Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).

I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.

So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:

Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)Still has all original large and obvious Tells.Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.

Gained Unblockable.

Let’s look at your claims:

Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Urejt.5648 said:Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight

You forgot projectile destruction