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Death's Judgment Should Not Be Unblockable

Shadowcat.2680

By Shadowcat.2680
in Thief

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Shadowcat.2680

Shadowcat.2680

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

You're fond of definitions it seems:

verb (used with object), spammed, spamming.5.(lowercase) Digital Technology. to execute (an action) or use (an item) rapidly or repeatedly in a video game:

The malice rework (as I've said) does promote spam of DJ. I never said attacks weren't required between that spam. Just because something can't be used back to back doesn't disqualify it from being able to be spammed.

Arguments about whether or not DJ is the hardest hitting skill without malice matter on paper only. It doesn't matter in game because the malice is easily obtainable. You won't find a harder hitting unblockable that can be used as often as DJ.

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BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

You're fond of definitions it seems:

verb (used with object),
spammed, spamming
.5.(lowercase) Digital Technology. to execute (an action) or use (an item) rapidly or repeatedly in a video game:

The malice rework (as I've said) does promote spam of DJ. I never said attacks weren't required between that spam. Just because something can't be used back to back doesn't disqualify it from being able to be spammed.

Arguments about whether or not DJ is the hardest hitting skill without malice matter on paper only. It doesn't matter in game because the malice is easily obtainable. You won't find a harder hitting unblockable that can be used as often as DJ.

Again since you can’t spam the ability in repeatedly or rapidly in succession since you have to use other skills and resources after every single cast breaks it up so it’s not spamming, and again you claimed DJ is the hardest hitting Unblockable skill without Malice, again your claim not mine, and it isn’t the facts prove that, .#goalposts, .#rc

Those pesky facts.

Edit oh look the missing context to the definition you provided.

“Spam the attack button as soon as the fight begins.”

Can’t really do that with DJ... yeah .#context

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Shadowcat.2680

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

You're fond of definitions it seems:

verb (used with object),
spammed, spamming
.5.(lowercase) Digital Technology. to execute (an action) or use (an item) rapidly or repeatedly in a video game:

The malice rework (as I've said) does promote spam of DJ. I never said attacks weren't required between that spam. Just because something can't be used back to back doesn't disqualify it from being able to be spammed.

Arguments about whether or not DJ is the hardest hitting skill without malice matter on paper only. It doesn't matter in game because the malice is easily obtainable. You won't find a harder hitting unblockable that can be used as often as DJ.

Again since you can’t spam the ability in repeatedly or rapidly in succession since you have to use other skills and resources after every single cast breaks it up so it’s not spamming, and again you claimed DJ is the hardest hitting Unblockable skill without Malice, again your claim not mine, and it isn’t the facts prove that, .#goalposts, .#rc

Those pesky facts.

Edit oh look the missing context to the definition you provided.

“Spam the attack button as soon as the fight begins.”

Can’t really do that with DJ... yeah .#context

A sentence in italics on a dictionary's webpage is an example sentence of how the word could be used. Nothing more. Dictionaries online are all formatted this way.

Yes, you can use DJ repeatedly in a fight. The malice required for it ramps up quickly.

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BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

You're fond of definitions it seems:

verb (used with object),
spammed, spamming
.5.(lowercase) Digital Technology. to execute (an action) or use (an item) rapidly or repeatedly in a video game:

The malice rework (as I've said) does promote spam of DJ. I never said attacks weren't required between that spam. Just because something can't be used back to back doesn't disqualify it from being able to be spammed.

Arguments about whether or not DJ is the hardest hitting skill without malice matter on paper only. It doesn't matter in game because the malice is easily obtainable. You won't find a harder hitting unblockable that can be used as often as DJ.

Again since you can’t spam the ability in repeatedly or rapidly in succession since you have to use other skills and resources after every single cast breaks it up so it’s not spamming, and again you claimed DJ is the hardest hitting Unblockable skill without Malice, again your claim not mine, and it isn’t the facts prove that, .#goalposts, .#rc

Those pesky facts.

Edit oh look the missing context to the definition you provided.

“Spam the attack button as soon as the fight begins.”

Can’t really do that with DJ... yeah .#context

A sentence in italics on a dictionary's webpage is an example sentence of how the word could be used. Nothing more. #learnhowtoreadadictionary

Yes, you can use DJ repeatedly in a fight. The malice required for it ramps up quickly.

Spamming would be what Unload can do or Headshot, not DJ since the cycle is broken up by other skills/resources, sorry but by your logic, then players spam Prime Light beak since it can be used repeatedly in a Fight, or Spam Surge Of the Mists since it can be used repeatedly in a fight... .#rc

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Shadowcat.2680

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

You're fond of definitions it seems:

verb (used with object),
spammed, spamming
.5.(lowercase) Digital Technology. to execute (an action) or use (an item) rapidly or repeatedly in a video game:

The malice rework (as I've said) does promote spam of DJ. I never said attacks weren't required between that spam. Just because something can't be used back to back doesn't disqualify it from being able to be spammed.

Arguments about whether or not DJ is the hardest hitting skill without malice matter on paper only. It doesn't matter in game because the malice is easily obtainable. You won't find a harder hitting unblockable that can be used as often as DJ.

Again since you can’t spam the ability in repeatedly or rapidly in succession since you have to use other skills and resources after every single cast breaks it up so it’s not spamming, and again you claimed DJ is the hardest hitting Unblockable skill without Malice, again your claim not mine, and it isn’t the facts prove that, .#goalposts, .#rc

Those pesky facts.

Edit oh look the missing context to the definition you provided.

“Spam the attack button as soon as the fight begins.”

Can’t really do that with DJ... yeah .#context

A sentence in italics on a dictionary's webpage is an example sentence of how the word could be used. Nothing more. #learnhowtoreadadictionary

Yes, you can use DJ repeatedly in a fight. The malice required for it ramps up quickly.

Spamming would be what Unload can do or Headshot, not DJ since the cycle is broken up by other skills/resources, sorry but by your logic, then players spam Prime Light beak since it can be used repeatedly in a Fight, or Spam Surge Of the Mists since it can be used repeatedly in a fight... .#rc

The new malice does reward spam, both of DJ and the cheap ini skills between its uses. That DJ is unblockable (the deadeye risks only reveal with the shot, which has always been the case) puts deadeye in a position of being able to spam skills (with DJ included in the skills it spams) without worry of reflects save for its low ini shots getting reflected back at it.

And no, I wouldn't call skills with 20 and 60 sec cooldowns spammable. It is the new malice and its quick ramp up time along with the ini refund of M7 rewarding spam in the case of deadeye. Unblockable compounds this poor design.

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BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

You're fond of definitions it seems:

verb (used with object),
spammed, spamming
.5.(lowercase) Digital Technology. to execute (an action) or use (an item) rapidly or repeatedly in a video game:

The malice rework (as I've said) does promote spam of DJ. I never said attacks weren't required between that spam. Just because something can't be used back to back doesn't disqualify it from being able to be spammed.

Arguments about whether or not DJ is the hardest hitting skill without malice matter on paper only. It doesn't matter in game because the malice is easily obtainable. You won't find a harder hitting unblockable that can be used as often as DJ.

Again since you can’t spam the ability in repeatedly or rapidly in succession since you have to use other skills and resources after every single cast breaks it up so it’s not spamming, and again you claimed DJ is the hardest hitting Unblockable skill without Malice, again your claim not mine, and it isn’t the facts prove that, .#goalposts, .#rc

Those pesky facts.

Edit oh look the missing context to the definition you provided.

“Spam the attack button as soon as the fight begins.”

Can’t really do that with DJ... yeah .#context

A sentence in italics on a dictionary's webpage is an example sentence of how the word could be used. Nothing more. #learnhowtoreadadictionary

Yes, you can use DJ repeatedly in a fight. The malice required for it ramps up quickly.

Spamming would be what Unload can do or Headshot, not DJ since the cycle is broken up by other skills/resources, sorry but by your logic, then players spam Prime Light beak since it can be used repeatedly in a Fight, or Spam Surge Of the Mists since it can be used repeatedly in a fight... .#rc

The new malice does reward spam, both of DJ and the cheap ini skills between its uses. That DJ is unblockable (the deadeye risks only reveal with the shot, which has always been the case) puts deadeye in a position of being able to spam skills (with DJ included in the skills it spams) without worry of reflects save for its low ini shots getting reflected back at it.

And no, I wouldn't call skills with 20 and 60 sec cooldowns spammable. It is the new malice and its quick ramp up time along with the ini refund of M7 rewarding spam in the case of deadeye. Unblockable compounds this poor design.

Your logic used in your previous post claimed that since DJ can be used repeatedly in a fight that means it’s Spammable, well those two skills I listed can be used repeatedly in a fight, so again by your logic they are spammable.

But DJ isn’t since it has to have other actions taken in between each and every use, which makes it not spammable now spammable would be something like Unload, it can be spammed multiple times consecutively without doing any other action in between, unlike DJ which requires other actions to be taken to even make it available to use after every single cast of it. .#cs

Also again all the Block Spam and Projectile hate in game needs more Counterplay and DJ provides that for Thieves.

Anyway I’m out, the facts speak for themselves in refuting and debunking all the claims in the OP and subsequent posts by the Op and no longer need to be repeated, as well as being bored with this conversation, and again it’s still so blatantly obvious where the issue resides and it’s not with DJ.

Ciao.

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AfroMetal.5394

AfroMetal.5394

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

Oh my... Then let's check what FACTS came FROM DEVS and you can easily find on GAME FORUM:"Death's Judgment: This attack's initiative cost has been removed, and it has moved to become the stealth attack for rifles. It is now UBLOCKABLE and consumes all malice when the thief strikes their marked target. Reduced the casting time by about 0.25 seconds."^This is from patch notes 8th may, check it, love it. It's a proof, a fact, that almighty devs consider that DJ needs to be unblockable skill.If you want your claim, speculation or opinion, whatever you call it, be heard and addressed properly, you need to show devs (and not the other forum dwellers) why they should consider your words to carry a meaningfull content for developement of better experience for entire playerbase. On of the best ways to do this is by providing some facts, proof or, in case of lack of mentioned above (as facts and results are not available to obtain), big enough group of KNOWN EXPERTS at the mentioned subject that share your opinion. Denying (or trying to not address) existence and importance of mentioned ways for a counterplay just makes your claims seem less relevant and make you look like just someone that just rants, that he/she liked it better before or just don't like it now, just because.

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Curennos.9307

Curennos.9307

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The previous incarnation of malice rewarded doing -nothing-. The current incarnation does NOT reward spam - you only get your malice on hit. If you spam your skills, your opponent - I assume they're competent - will defend accordingly and you'll end up with wasted ini/having to wait to regen so you can get a M7 proc.

I guess you can 'spam' DJ by cycling through stealth. I'll admit that. But why would you? That's a complete waste of stealth-abilities and you'll accomplish..pretty much nothing. And then you'll die because you're all out of every possible resource you could use to defend yourself.

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Shadowcat.2680

Shadowcat.2680

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@AfroMetal.5394 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

Oh my... Then let's check what FACTS came FROM DEVS and you can easily find on GAME FORUM:"Death's Judgment: This attack's initiative cost has been removed, and it has moved to become the stealth attack for rifles. It is now UBLOCKABLE and consumes all malice when the thief strikes their marked target. Reduced the casting time by about 0.25 seconds."^This is from patch notes 8th may, check it, love it. It's a proof, a fact, that almighty devs consider that DJ needs to be unblockable skill.If you want your claim, speculation or opinion, whatever you call it, be heard and addressed properly, you need to show devs (and not the other forum dwellers) why they should consider your words to carry a meaningfull content for developement of better experience for entire playerbase. On of the best ways to do this is by providing some facts, proof or, in case of lack of mentioned above (as facts and results are not available to obtain), big enough group of KNOWN EXPERTS at the mentioned subject that share your opinion. Denying (or trying to not address) existence and importance of mentioned ways for a counterplay just makes your claims seem less relevant and make you look like just someone that just rants, that he/she liked it better before or just don't like it now, just because.

I've acknowledged time and time again in this thread that counterplay still exists for DJ. I've even listed what that counterplay is. But there is less counterplay than there was pre-patch. That's simple arithmetic.

As to the devs choosing to make DJ unblockable: it's obvious they did. It's in the patch notes. It does not mean Anet will keep it as an unblockable. That's entirely up to them. That the entire elite just got retooled should make it clear that nothing in the game is set in stone.

If you think this thread is meant to convince other forum-goers, you're wrong. Ideally, a thread opens up a discussion about something (whether posters agree or disagree with the OP) and that discussion leads to Anet (assuming they watch the forums) thinking more about that particular issue. Anet devs may choose to disagree with me entirely and choose to keep DJ as an unblockable for the next two years. Won't upset me any as I've posted my opinion on the matter; they're welcome to agree or disagree (like anyone else) and act accordingly with their game.

I do think interesting points have been brought up in this thread. That pierce would be incredibly useful on rifle is one. That CB was a far more reliable unblockable stealth attack than DJ (and so unblockable should stay on rifle somewhere if Anet ultimately agrees with the title of the thread) was another.Anything posted by players is typically going to be opinion/speculation. I think a well timed reflect should be a risk for DJ. You're welcome to disagree with that.

@keramatzmode.1906 said:A ranger crying about a very obvious laser skill.

oi im laffin

Ranger is not terribly reliant on blocks/reflects (no reflects to speak of/only one block).

@"Curennos.9307" said:The previous incarnation of malice rewarded doing -nothing-. The current incarnation does NOT reward spam - you only get your malice on hit. If you spam your skills, your opponent - I assume they're competent - will defend accordingly and you'll end up with wasted ini/having to wait to regen so you can get a M7 proc.

I guess you can 'spam' DJ by cycling through stealth. I'll admit that. But why would you? That's a complete waste of stealth-abilities and you'll accomplish..pretty much nothing. And then you'll die because you're all out of every possible resource you could use to defend yourself.

You're right, a competent deadeye won't spam shots. The thread went down a weird tangent about the semantics of the word "spam," but my point was always that (and maybe spam isn't the best verb for it) DJ can be fired more often post-patch than it could be before the rework. I don't personally find that to be an issue as the deadeye is having to get shots between the DJs. But I don't think DJ should be unblockable. I would like for the counterplay of block/reflect to still play a part when the shot is taken.

I would also like to see less reflect spam. Firebrand in my experience is an offender for this. A well-timed block/reflect from a weapon skill, in my opinion, should be rewarding counterplay.

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Jugglemonkey.8741

Jugglemonkey.8741

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@Darknessz.9650 said:its said when everyone here thief de needs a nerf lool

first of all if you die by a DE your a noob and secondly damage should be nerf slightly then again, thief DE ARE THE WEAKEST ELITE CLASS FOCUSING ALL ON POWER BUT HAVE LOW HEALTH NO CONDI CLEAN NO ROTATION AND THEY ALL DIE IN 1-3 HITS!!!!SHORTBOW 5 SKILL will save your kitten 25% of the time but the CONDI FROM ATTACKS WILL KILL YOUNOTE 11k HP LOL yet you all FAIL TO KILL A DE REQUESTING TO NERF THEM

ONLY DE NERF SHOULD BE SWORD / P/p and slight nerf on rifle burst

ggwp

Have you considered taking shadow arts, and not building full zerk? You can still get good enough damage in mara gear with SA, just saying.

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AikijinX.6258

AikijinX.6258

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Death Judgement being unblockable now is a long past due mechanic that Thief should have received a while ago. With all these Blocks, and reflects in the game. Bassi Venom just isn't enough. I am all for the D.J change. It's actually quite resourceful when fighting Warriors, Guards, Double Arc Shield Ele's.

I actually created a build which i am currently running that offers a great deal of damage with DJ. I will throw it up on the forums when build editor is updated to reflect post DE rework.

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