The infuriating elixir s

[Frostmane.9734]

Elixir s is probably the most conflicting engineer skill to me. Every once and a while I love it, but most of the time I hate it but still can't play without it, especially considering the elixirs trait line has little else to offer in the second tier.

This skills is essentially a mirror of Elementalist Mist Form; They share all the same duration and cooldown metrics and both prevent capture point contribution and lock skill use, BUT Mist Forms gets a 66% movement speed increase. Should elixir s get the same bonus so it at least will function to create separation rather than just take you out of the fight only to get smashed in the face before you can heal?

[Josif.2015]

@Frostmane.9734 said:Elixir s is probably the most conflicting engineer skill to me. Every once and a while I love it, but most of the time I hate it but still can't play without it, especially considering the elixirs trait line has little else to offer in the second tier.

This skills is essentially a mirror of Elementalist Mist Form; They share all the same duration and cooldown metrics and both prevent capture point contribution and lock skill use, BUT Mist Forms gets a 66% movement speed increase. Should elixir s get the same bonus so it at least will function to create separation rather than just take you out of the fight only to get smashed in the face before you can heal?

It's better if it doesn't because Mist Form only has 1 skill. Elixir S has two: the utility skill and the toolbelt skill. The first skill gives you a stun breaker that prevents capture point contribution and the second skill gives you a 5 seconds stealth.

If you're talking about the trait Self-Regulating Defenses that passively procs Elixir S when you reach 25% health, then yes, it is very annoying. It can interrupt your heal which is why I use Health Insurance with Backpack Regenerator. Health Insurance increases your healing, meaning it increases the passive healing on Backpack Regenerator.

[JohnnyRico.8591]

I thought this was going to be about the auto elixir s trait....in which case yes...it can be very infuriating sometimes

[foxtrot.6902]

I miss the old version of being tiny but still able to do actions so auto doesn't trigger and you get smoked by all the conditions you were about to clear :anguished:

Anyone else remember the old stability proc from the toolbelt that made you huge? Talk about a massive telegraph but was pretty funny as an asura.

[Adamantium.3682]

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Frostmane.9734 said:Elixir s is probably the most conflicting engineer skill to me. Every once and a while I love it, but most of the time I hate it but still can't play without it, especially considering the elixirs trait line has little else to offer in the second tier.

This skills is essentially a mirror of Elementalist Mist Form; They share all the same duration and cooldown metrics and both prevent capture point contribution and lock skill use, BUT Mist Forms gets a 66% movement speed increase. Should elixir s get the same bonus so it at least will function to create separation rather than just take you out of the fight only to get smashed in the face before you can heal?

It's better if it doesn't because Mist Form only has 1 skill. Elixir S has two: the utility skill and the toolbelt skill. The first skill gives you a stun breaker that prevents capture point contribution and the second skill gives you a 5 seconds stealth.

If you're talking about the trait Self-Regulating Defenses that passively procs Elixir S when you reach 25% health, then yes, it is very annoying. It can interrupt your heal which is why I use Health Insurance with Backpack Regenerator. Health Insurance increases your healing, meaning it increases the passive healing on Backpack Regenerator.

Health insurance is outgoing are you sure it works with BR?

Not that I disagree with your choice, there's not really a good option if you don't want SRD.

[Frostmane.9734]

@"foxtrot.6902" said:I miss the old version of being tiny but still able to do actions so auto doesn't trigger and you get smoked by all the conditions you were about to clear :anguished:

Anyone else remember the old stability proc from the toolbelt that made you huge? Talk about a massive telegraph but was pretty funny as an asura.

That's exactly my frustration with it. It's a skill that, in theory, is supposed to be an "oh crap" button but tends to get you killed as often as it saves you. Seems like you should at least be able to affect yourself and heal/cleanse but not affect other players.

[Josif.2015]

@Adamantium.3682 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Frostmane.9734 said:Elixir s is probably the most conflicting engineer skill to me. Every once and a while I love it, but most of the time I hate it but still can't play without it, especially considering the elixirs trait line has little else to offer in the second tier.

This skills is essentially a mirror of Elementalist Mist Form; They share all the same duration and cooldown metrics and both prevent capture point contribution and lock skill use, BUT Mist Forms gets a 66% movement speed increase. Should elixir s get the same bonus so it at least will function to create separation rather than just take you out of the fight only to get smashed in the face before you can heal?

It's better if it doesn't because Mist Form only has 1 skill. Elixir S has two: the utility skill and the toolbelt skill. The first skill gives you a stun breaker that prevents capture point contribution and the second skill gives you a 5 seconds stealth.

If you're talking about the trait Self-Regulating Defenses that passively procs Elixir S when you reach 25% health, then yes, it is very annoying. It can interrupt your heal which is why I use Health Insurance with Backpack Regenerator. Health Insurance increases your healing, meaning it increases the passive healing on Backpack Regenerator.

Health insurance is outgoing are you sure it works with BR?

Not that I disagree with your choice, there's not really a good option if you don't want SRD.

Yes, it does. If you look at Backpack Regenerator without Health Insurance, it gives you 117 health every second when you are using a kit. Choosing Health Insurance increases the healing you get and give to allies and Backpack Regenerators' healing gets increased to 128 health.

Also, I play ranked PvP as a core power engineer using 4 kits. Yes, 4 kits. That includes me using the Med Kit and I've received the healing stat at the end of PvP matches multiple times. It gives me more sustain.

[starlinvf.1358]

Wouldn't the solution be Self-Regulating Defenses grants Resistance? That would address both issues with the skill interrupt and condi damage finishing you off while invul.

I also don't understand why Automated Medical Response isn't being used for this function, since this is exactly what AED was designed for.

[Frostmane.9734]

@starlinvf.1358 said:Wouldn't the solution be Self-Regulating Defenses grants Resistance? That would address both issues with the skill interrupt and condi damage finishing you off while invul.

I also don't understand why Automated Medical Response isn't being used for this function, since this is exactly what AED was designed for.

I'm all for that. Actually, having skills that provide invulnerability not also provide resistance seems like a remediation gap. I think resistance was added to the game later and being able to die from conditions after activating a skill that's supposed to stop you from taking damage seems broken.

[coglin.1496]

No, I do not want the elixir changes to merely resistance. I like it to mitigate direct damage.I am baffled by that notions to destroy its value.

[starlinvf.1358]

@coglin.1496 said:No, I do not want the elixir changes to merely resistance. I like it to mitigate direct damage.I am baffled by that notions to destroy its value.

I NEVER said take away Invul. It needs Resistance added to SRD in order for the trait (and potentially the skill) to not undermind itself when it triggers

[coglin.1496]

In that case, I do not feel it is reasonable to both be immune to condition and direct damage.

[Rezzet.3614]

eh just make it work like it did when gw2 was first launched, Invuln without locking skills

[starlinvf.1358]

@"Rezzet.3614" said:eh just make it work like it did when gw2 was first launched, Invuln without locking skills

Considering the huge jump in power of both control and damage, there are huge ramifications to allowing those builds access to their skills while invulnerable. Holo might get knocked out of PF, but the exceed skills can have a huge impact if their stats aren't scaled down while the Invul is active. And Scrapper..... "Stuns for Daze". Either can get a lot done in 3 seconds.

[starlinvf.1358]

@coglin.1496 said:In that case, I do not feel it is reasonable to both be immune to condition and direct damage.

Then how would you address the fact that the trait, which is intended to save your life, is much more likely to get you killed before the effect even expires?

[coglin.1496]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@coglin.1496 said:In that case, I do not feel it is reasonable to both be immune to condition and direct damage.

Then how would you address the fact that the trait, which is intended to save your life, is much more likely to get you killed before the effect even expires?

You are making the false assumption that I feel it is broken. I believe paying better attention is the solution. I pay attention to my health and adjust my play to the fact that elixir s will be used, if I have the trait.

[zoopop.5630]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@coglin.1496 said:No, I do not want the elixir changes to merely resistance. I like it to mitigate direct damage.I am baffled by that notions to destroy its value.

I NEVER said take away Invul. It needs Resistance added to SRD in order for the trait (and potentially the skill) to not undermind itself when it triggers

the issue is if its given resistance then it's without a doubt going to be pretty busted, the fact that so many people run it because it's such a strong Passive trait bothers me to an extent and it kinda kills build diversity at times.

My thing would be.....IF resistance is to be given then it'll need a LOT longer cool down

or

Give it Resistance if you take the actual original elixir s bottle skill and not the passive trait. either way imo giving it resistance would just make it busted over all, what i would offer is 20% less condi damage taken while in that form from elixir s.

[starlinvf.1358]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"coglin.1496" said:No, I do not want the elixir changes to merely resistance. I like it to mitigate direct damage.I am baffled by that notions to destroy its value.

I NEVER said take away Invul. It needs Resistance added to SRD in order for the trait (and potentially the skill) to not undermind itself when it triggers

the issue is if its given resistance then it's without a doubt going to be pretty busted, the fact that so many people run it because it's such a strong Passive trait bothers me to an extent and it kinda kills build diversity at times.

My thing would be.....IF resistance is to be given then it'll need a LOT longer cool down

or

Give it Resistance if you take the actual original elixir s bottle skill and not the passive trait. either way imo giving it resistance would just make it busted over all, what i would offer is 20% less condi damage taken while in that form from elixir s.

The "its broken or not" is a little beside the point. Frankly a lot of things can be addressed better by somehow moving the trait over to AED.... but theres also a thematic class due to its skill type.

But my more immediate focus is on the purpose of the trait being similar to Defy pain, in that it gives the Engineer breathing room when it suffers from a massive spike. Most of those "On 25% health" passive defenses are specifically there to try and counter act focus fire in PvP, so a team can't just down the support player to force a team collapse. The interplay is different now, but its purpose still stands in both PvP and WvW.

And if you think about it, the way these Invul skills work, their mitigation power directly scales with whats its mitigating. That right there is a big clue as to whats the real problem is.

[foxtrot.6902]

"the fact that so many people run it because it's such a strong Passive trait bothers me to an extent and it kinda kills build diversity at times."

I don't think many people run it because it's particularly strong but the fact there's nothing else useful to pick (outside some extreme niche builds). If I could pick 2 items from the first tier of alchemy I'd gladly do it over what we have to choose from in the 2nd tier.

"I believe paying better attention is the solution. I pay attention to my health and adjust my play to the fact that elixir s will be used, if I have the trait."

PVE sure. Large spikes in other game modes- not so much.

[Castigator.3470]

The way I see it, Elixir S, even the automatic version isn't broken. It may be annoying, but it is more like a pause button than an "I win" button.In a duel, it allows you to gather your focus, but it allows your enemy to do the same.And the trait prevents your Holo to be nuked from full health to downstate in one mesmer burst in WvW. I remember the Killtime thread, where players were complaining that time to kill in PvP was too short, thanks to the damage increase across the board.Skills and traits like Elixir S exist to prevent, or mitigate a one shot burst meta.

But I get some of the complaints. Elixir S allows the engineer to play some mind games. To get enemies to use up their cooldowns on a temporarily invulnerable foe and that can really annoy people. On the bright side, if an engineer is tiny, he's no immediate threat and the team can choose how to deal with him. A tiny engineer can't really disengage until the elixir ends, so a 1v3 stays a 1v3 unless there were reinforcements already on the way.The enineer can't turn a situation around and has to hope others do. That or his enemies forget about him.

[archmagus.7249]

If you put elixir s on your skill bar, you're supposed to use it to avoid an incoming spike. And use it's toolbelt as more of a disengage or to sneak. Traiting self regulating defenses is more for waiting for the last couple of seconds on your heal to come off cool when you're low on health.

[Ivantreil.3092]

@archmagus.7249 said:If you put elixir s on your skill bar, you're supposed to use it to avoid an incoming spike. And use it's toolbelt as more of a disengage or to sneak. Traiting self regulating defenses is more for waiting for the last couple of seconds on your heal to come off cool when you're low on health.

Mostly of what you said is correct, and most of the time that can actually be applied, altough, the first point of using it to avoid an incoming spike... i have seen it's not been so so reliably on this aspect as before.

Most of the current hard hit skill of Mirage, Thief, and Scourge at some extend, are quite instant skill with little to no tell, except the tell that the enemy is looking at you.

If you use it too early, thinking that the burst will be iminent, they won't procced to the burst and you just wasted Elixir S, and they are waiting for you to get out of S mode and now actually burst you.

If you use it after you got hit by the burst, chances are, unless you managed to chain it with your healing turret without being interrupted/stuned, you are probably dead as most of these instant hit builds then to be heavily condi based, you are gonna die inside your Elixir S.

Theres been very few scenarios where i pull it off exactly at the imminent moment, Elixir S imo is not the issue, sure, we rely a lot on this Skill in almost every PvP build, but i think that's due to the nature of this meta, not simply because of how good or bad this skill, it could also be blamed on our other skill for not being good tools to survive at all.

[Xae.7204]

@Frostmane.9734 said:Elixir s is probably the most conflicting engineer skill to me. Every once and a while I love it, but most of the time I hate it but still can't play without it, especially considering the elixirs trait line has little else to offer in the second tier.

This skills is essentially a mirror of Elementalist Mist Form; They share all the same duration and cooldown metrics and both prevent capture point contribution and lock skill use, BUT Mist Forms gets a 66% movement speed increase. Should elixir s get the same bonus so it at least will function to create separation rather than just take you out of the fight only to get smashed in the face before you can heal?

Having skills that are nerfed cut and paste jobs from other classes is the Class Fantasy of Engineers.

So no.

[Mal.1670]

The problem with the Elixir S trait is that it's been unnecessarily nerfed with the change to the third Alchemy minor trait. Elixirs used to remove 1 condition when consumed, now it's heal with boons. Elixir S could have it's cooldown increased in exchange for removing damaging/1-3 conditions, then and only then would I use to elixir s trait because otherwise it's going to get you killed to conditions.

Alternatively, let players heal while under the effects of Elixir S.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

I do like occasionally using rune of vampirism with self regulating defenses. When struck below 25% become a midget and proc aoe life steal can be nice :)