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Serpents' Ire is too reliant on population.


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@"Stalkingwolf.6035" said:

"What is Cyan?""What is clockwise?"

^^

In fairness, those are two of the more obscure concepts in the whole thing. People with English as a second language may not be familiar with an uncommon color (eg: what is taupe?).

People who are not cough old cough like me may not be familiar with using the sweep of analog clock hands to determine direction. Digital clocks are all over the place. So, yes, it is inconvenient, but neither of these two are specifically surprising to me

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@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Defeating one of the zealots in phase 1 is entirely possible with 3 to 5. But beyond that I don't know. You would definitely need to treat it like youre playing high tier fractals.

Scaling I'm unsure about in phase 2, its definitely the hardest. Cant say I ever got there where i knew what other people brought.

The maw in the desolation has a similar requirement. I believe it is definitely possible with just 15, but because its not popular no one relly tries that.

Maw has the problem where one or more of the NPCs frequently break because apparently getting an NPC to walk from point A to point B is still not something that can be done reliably after this many years of development.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Venusama.5103 said:Popular/Unpopular opinion? Where do you stand?

I have personally attempted to command a couple of these meta's in OCEANIC prime-time on the NA servers to no success. Is it too reliant on population (which is severely lacking during NA off-peak) or is it simply an issue of players not understanding the mechanics?

And has anyone actually witnessed successful runs with low player population?

I have not witnessed it, only read posts by others that have stated they successfully completed Serpents Ire with as little as 10 players, so I'm sure there's quite a bit of not following the mechanics going on here.

I think they’re either exaggerating how low of players they had or just lying. It’s not possible to beat it with ten players.

Well, one of the people I heard it from posted it in one of the many other Serpent Ire threads that have been on here...and from what I understand it's completely possible if everyone knows exactly what they're doing and follows the direction of the commander/leader. Personally I thought it would be optimal to have 4 squads of 10 people, but after hearing how the end bosses work I fully believe you can do it with 10.

It’s impossible simply because of the negative damage buff each of the bosses share with each other. In order to do any damage, you would need three to have their bar broken at one time which would mean they’d have -66% damage reduction. There’s simply not enough time to beat all of them in time like that.

It becomes even less possible if each boss has someone at it as it’s being assumed that you’re averaging two players per boss and that they both can consistently break it’s bar and deal enough DPS quickly enough.

The mechanics of the fight simply make it impossible to beat it with just ten players.

Ah, I see our difference, you presume that all the bosses need to be attacked at the same time...yet everything I've heard is that for optimal efficiency you take them on one at a time as each subsequent boss is easier to kill after you kill the first one...that's probably how such a small group can do it.

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I just did it yesterday. It took 3 attempts, strangely. It was weird, because about 1/5th of the squad couldn't maintain a connection. Unfortunately, they happened to all be in the CC group, so that lead to problems. Also, there was always one CC group that didn't listen, which didn't help.

I've learned a new trick, though. Something I noticed is that the fail group was usually group 2, which was the one that sat right on the mirror of Lyssa PoI. It turns out that there are a couple of branded vets there, and unfortunately none of the players in those groups could figure out that you can kill them early or just avoid them by climbing the front of the building. So, new strategy: I place the zerg right at the PoI, and just go clockwise from there. That way, the sheer numbers of the zerg will end up body blocking all the branded vets, and the other groups can fight the zealots with no interruptions.

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Venusama.5103 said:Popular/Unpopular opinion? Where do you stand?

I have personally attempted to command a couple of these meta's in OCEANIC prime-time on the NA servers to no success. Is it too reliant on population (which is severely lacking during NA off-peak) or is it simply an issue of players not understanding the mechanics?

And has anyone actually witnessed successful runs with low player population?

I have not witnessed it, only read posts by others that have stated they successfully completed Serpents Ire with as little as 10 players, so I'm sure there's quite a bit of not following the mechanics going on here.

I think they’re either exaggerating how low of players they had or just lying. It’s not possible to beat it with ten players.

Well, one of the people I heard it from posted it in one of the many other Serpent Ire threads that have been on here...and from what I understand it's completely possible if everyone knows exactly what they're doing and follows the direction of the commander/leader. Personally I thought it would be optimal to have 4 squads of 10 people, but after hearing how the end bosses work I fully believe you can do it with 10.

It’s impossible simply because of the negative damage buff each of the bosses share with each other. In order to do any damage, you would need three to have their bar broken at one time which would mean they’d have -66% damage reduction. There’s simply not enough time to beat all of them in time like that.

It becomes even less possible if each boss has someone at it as it’s being assumed that you’re averaging two players per boss and that they both can consistently break it’s bar and deal enough DPS quickly enough.

The mechanics of the fight simply make it impossible to beat it with just ten players.

Ah, I see our difference, you presume that all the bosses need to be attacked at the same time...yet everything I've heard is that for optimal efficiency you take them on one at a time as each subsequent boss is easier to kill after you kill the first one...that's probably how such a small group can do it.

Except you cannot do that unless you have people at the other bosses breaking their bars as soon and often as they can.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defensive_Veil

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well if Anet were to nerf the event, the best option (imho), would be do reduce the damage reduction that each boss takes down to at most 20% per stack. The amount that the bosses affect the bar can be reduced to the effect it now takes one minute more for all of them to deplete the bar.

That should make it a little easier to complete without making is a brain dead faceroll. That said, I still feel that the meta is fine as is.

Rather remove bar lower its health increase reward its obvius its to hard for most and should treated like eater of souls

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well
if
Anet were to nerf the event, the best option (imho), would be do reduce the damage reduction that each boss takes down to at most 20% per stack. The amount that the bosses affect the bar can be reduced to the effect it now takes one minute more for all of them to deplete the bar.

That should make it a little easier to complete without making is a brain dead faceroll. That said, I still feel that the meta is fine as is.

Rather remove bar lower its health increase reward its obvius its to hard for most and should treated like eater of souls

No. That would be too much of a nerf and would make it essentially a low effort faceroll.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well
if
Anet were to nerf the event, the best option (imho), would be do reduce the damage reduction that each boss takes down to at most 20% per stack. The amount that the bosses affect the bar can be reduced to the effect it now takes one minute more for all of them to deplete the bar.

That should make it a little easier to complete without making is a brain dead faceroll. That said, I still feel that the meta is fine as is.

Rather remove bar lower its health increase reward its obvius its to hard for most and should treated like eater of souls

No. That would be too much of a nerf and would make it essentially a low effort faceroll.

So what wouldnt it make people happier challenge dont apeal to many

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well
if
Anet were to nerf the event, the best option (imho), would be do reduce the damage reduction that each boss takes down to at most 20% per stack. The amount that the bosses affect the bar can be reduced to the effect it now takes one minute more for all of them to deplete the bar.

That should make it a little easier to complete without making is a brain dead faceroll. That said, I still feel that the meta is fine as is.

Rather remove bar lower its health increase reward its obvius its to hard for most and should treated like eater of souls

No. That would be too much of a nerf and would make it essentially a low effort faceroll.

So what wouldnt it make people happier challenge dont apeal to many

Then they simply don’t have to do it. It’s not even a challenge as the issue is with the players and their choice to not use CC.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well
if
Anet were to nerf the event, the best option (imho), would be do reduce the damage reduction that each boss takes down to at most 20% per stack. The amount that the bosses affect the bar can be reduced to the effect it now takes one minute more for all of them to deplete the bar.

That should make it a little easier to complete without making is a brain dead faceroll. That said, I still feel that the meta is fine as is.

Rather remove bar lower its health increase reward its obvius its to hard for most and should treated like eater of souls

No. That would be too much of a nerf and would make it essentially a low effort faceroll.

So what wouldnt it make people happier challenge dont apeal to many

Then they simply don’t have to do it. It’s not even a challenge as the issue is with the players and their choice to not use CC.

Yes and they wont change that

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I ran a successful run this time last Wednesday. There are several things at play here.

In theory, you could do the event with 30-35 people. However, to accomplish this, you would essentially need a raid comp. Every zealot would need a chronobuffer to give the party continuous alacrity and quickness, and the main zerg would need capped might, fury, quickness, and other offensive buffs. The rest of the team would have to be high CC classes, and everybody in the map would need to be on a power build and be intimately familiar with a good DPS rotation.

In practice, you get 20 condi scourges, I.E. the class with the worst ramp-up and the worst CC and notorious for having the laziest players. It is unfortunate, but a lot of players are unaware of how badly CC is balanced between classes. I.E.:

The thief is my favorite class to bring to this event, because it just shreds the breakbar. Choking gas does 100 bar damage every second, combined with Basilisk Venom's 750 every 40 seconds, Tripwire's 300 every 25 seconds, Palm Strike's 200 every 16 seconds, and Scorpion Wire's 150 every 20 seconds, you get a continuous scaled bar damage of roughly 150.75 every single second with hard CC alone, on top of all of the blind, weakness, and cripple it inflicts.

To compare, the standard scourge build only has 3 forms of CC: Garish Pillar (100 every 15 seconds), Charge (432 every 40 seconds), and Oppressive Collapse (200 every 20 seconds). This is a scaled bar damage of roughly 27.5 hard CC every second. The scourge can also take chilling grasp and wail of doom to raise this to 36 hard CC every second, but largely they don't.

So... my thief is roughly equivalent to five and a half scourges in regards to breakbar damage. Or, four scourges if they take better CC. Unfortunately, this event is a bit too hard to just take anyone. A single good player on a good class has the strength of several bad classes on phase 2.

You don't "need" a raid comp, or even raid builds..... you just need enough CCs divided up into 4 teams to keep the Zealots down. Then have the zerg split up for DPS, or ball up and kill them one by one. Either strategy works, but the zerg method will cause scaling to affect the HP pools. It might look slower, but not enough to put the whole event at risk. If the CC teams also have good DPS, thats bonus. For the boss fight, its mostly about keeping the Hydra away from the Ysshi, so their attacks don't overlap the zerg. From that point its just a matter of the zerg CCing enough to interrupt the Healing, and then surviving the AOE blast that comes after. If they can manage that, then the event should go fairly well.

The big problem is that getting 20-30 people who are willing to do something that isn't brainless DPS spam is hard to find outside of a guild. If a guild can bring around 15-20 people to set up the back bone of the teams, then its a lot easier to get the remaining peeps out of the Zerg. Then its just a matter of the zerg wanting to show up..... which is why its this loop of failure. The pugs won't want to show up unless its almost guaranteed to win. But its an event that requires people to act on mechanics, and people won't get familiar with the mechanics unless they participate..... thus they never get good. Unlike Triple Trouble, this Event all happens in visual range.... so the Commander(s) overseeing the event don't have to worry about timing.

Teq got to the state it is now, because of its Scheduling- so people would regularly show up, Competent Turret Operators were the hardest to find, but easiest to train, and boat/hill teams just needed decent DPS and not wander off. Because people would always show up, getting people trained to do certain jobs would naturally happen over time. Serpant's Ire has the disadvantage of being out in the boonies: hard to reach, little reason to be in the area outside of the event, and is in a weird time slot after daily reset. So its not likely people will be in Vabbi during the first run, and by the time the second one starts up, most of the daily runners will be logging off. Time slot isn't the biggest problem, but I suspect its affecting the casual population numbers.

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@"starlinvf.1358" said:You don't "need" a raid comp, or even raid builds..... you just need enough CCs divided up into 4 teams to keep the Zealots down.

I'm abbreviating the post for the sake of brevity, but I'm responding to the whole thing. As somebody who's commanded several successful runs, I can definitely tell you that you'll need a bunch of small fractal or raid comps to do this with 25 people. When doing the hybrid Zerg + CC squad strat, each consecutive kill adds additional time to complete the event. If the event is going to fail, the zerg only reaches the 3rd or 4th zealot. Now, if you have only 25 people, this means you have only 5 people per zealot. There is no "zerg" squad, so every CC team needs to be wholly capable of killing the zealot by themselves. Which means that, in order to be successful, every team would need to kill all 5 zealots by the time a bloated zerg beats the 3rd zealot.

In my standard splits, it is rare for any of the CC groups to kill the zealot on their own. Maybe the last one will be at 30% on a good run. This also has to be done with every character eschewing their DPS skills in favor of bringing as much CC as possible, because the breakbars of the zealots are utterly ridiculous. This translates to each CC group being nigh perfect in their rotations, balanced in their composition, using full glass power builds to deal out as much damage as possible during the break window with intimate knowledge of their DPS rotations, and also requiring maximum uptime in quickness and alacrity from a chronobuffer (20% increase in CC, overall 50% increase in damage).

Even if you have every player using CC skills, you'll still get failures because CC capabilities are poorly balanced across classes. Given all of those variables, you can't afford to have players sitting around in soldier or dire just slowly plinking away in a snowflake build, doing 1/3rd of the damage that they would have otherwise. Or do it sitting on a class that does 1/3rd the CC that a good class would. Or do it on a condi build, which has all its condis cut short after 8 seconds. The ratios aren't good here: I shouldn't be worth 9 people on my zerker daredevil under any circumstances.

Believe it or not, a lot of people are actually trying when they attempt this event, but there''s a very wide divide between the best players and the average player. It isn't a numbers issue, since I regularly pull 40+ whenever I make an attempt. The mechanics aren't that hard, either. You split up and use CC, then DPS when the bar is broken.

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The meta is very doable. The main issue is simply rewards. It's not nearly as rewarding as it should be, it requires both too much time and effort for the meager reward that it provides. This means that people won't do it because they can spend their time doing more lucrative metas.

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I personally like the challenge this meta presents as it is currently designed. This is more of a L2P issue for players that are accustomed to face rolling all other aspects of open world content.

Why should they dumb down this event?

If anything they should offer more in terms of a tutorial on the break bar and how it works with more tansparency on how much breakbar damage each skill does.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well
if
Anet were to nerf the event, the best option (imho), would be do reduce the damage reduction that each boss takes down to at most 20% per stack. The amount that the bosses affect the bar can be reduced to the effect it now takes one minute more for all of them to deplete the bar.

That should make it a little easier to complete without making is a brain dead faceroll. That said, I still feel that the meta is fine as is.

Rather remove bar lower its health increase reward its obvius its to hard for most and should treated like eater of souls

Don't even bring Eater of Souls into this conversation, that should never have been touched in the first place...it was already easy enough if players had bothered to pay attention to what the NPC's told you about defeating it...but no, nobody wants to have even a little bit of a challenge anymore(and I'm not some elitist, quite the contrary, I'm an average player that definitely plays the way I want).

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Break bars scaling wildly out of control are the problem with Serpent's Ire, and have been a problem across the board for years. You get more than 10 people in one place and even all of them actively trying to CC won't necessarily be enough.

Especially considering that CC access varies wildly between professions (and often, most of what they do have is on the subpar weapons nobody uses because of that whole "subpar" thing).

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

I think they’re either exaggerating how low of players they had or just lying. It’s not possible to beat it with ten players.

Well, one of the people I heard it from posted it in one of the many other Serpent Ire threads that have been on here...and from what I understand it's completely possible if everyone knows exactly what they're doing and follows the direction of the commander/leader. Personally I thought it would be optimal to have 4 squads of 10 people, but after hearing how the end bosses work I fully believe you can do it with 10.

It’s impossible simply because of the negative damage buff each of the bosses share with each other. In order to do any damage, you would need three to have their bar broken at one time which would mean they’d have -66% damage reduction. There’s simply not enough time to beat all of them in time like that.

It becomes even less possible if each boss has someone at it as it’s being assumed that you’re averaging two players per boss and that they both can consistently break it’s bar and deal enough DPS quickly enough.

The mechanics of the fight simply make it impossible to beat it with just ten players.And of course there's the first phase, where you really want to have as many people as possible combing the brand for the zealots. Sometimes they spawn in some really out-of-place locations (i even heard claims that they can spawn near anomaly, although i have never seen that myself).
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

I think they’re either exaggerating how low of players they had or just lying. It’s not possible to beat it with ten players.

Well, one of the people I heard it from posted it in one of the many other Serpent Ire threads that have been on here...and from what I understand it's completely possible if everyone knows exactly what they're doing and follows the direction of the commander/leader. Personally I thought it would be optimal to have 4 squads of 10 people, but after hearing how the end bosses work I fully believe you can do it with 10.

It’s impossible simply because of the negative damage buff each of the bosses share with each other. In order to do any damage, you would need three to have their bar broken at one time which would mean they’d have -66% damage reduction. There’s simply not enough time to beat all of them in time like that.

It becomes even less possible if each boss has someone at it as it’s being assumed that you’re averaging two players per boss and that they both can consistently break it’s bar and deal enough DPS quickly enough.

The mechanics of the fight simply make it impossible to beat it with just ten players.And of course there's the first phase, where you really want to have as many people as possible combing the brand for the zealots. Sometimes they spawn in some really out-of-place locations (i even heard claims that they can spawn near anomaly, although i have never seen that myself).

At the very least it can spawn next to the vista in that area. I've seen it show up 2 or 3 times there but 10 is at least plausible for phase 1 since there is plenty of time.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well
if
Anet were to nerf the event, the best option (imho), would be do reduce the damage reduction that each boss takes down to at most 20% per stack. The amount that the bosses affect the bar can be reduced to the effect it now takes one minute more for all of them to deplete the bar.

That should make it a little easier to complete without making is a brain dead faceroll. That said, I still feel that the meta is fine as is.

Rather remove bar lower its health increase reward its obvius its to hard for most and should treated like eater of souls

No. That would be too much of a nerf and would make it essentially a low effort faceroll.

So what wouldnt it make people happier challenge dont apeal to many

Then they simply don’t have to do it. It’s not even a challenge as the issue is with the players and their choice to not use CC.

"its not a bad product, its the customers fault"considering how much money that old lady got for that hot coffee cup, this attitude is outdatedSPECIALLY in mmos

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To be fair, no sane person is expecting their coffee to be 180 degrees Fahrenheit. There are different levels of "hot".

That all said, something I've noticed is that the more I do this event, the harder it gets. I used to be able to just assemble a team on whatever day I felt like it and succeed. But now, my odds are 50/50 in spite of the fact that I am doing nothing different from day to day. The theory I have is that this event is suffering from brain drain: All of the skilled people who could do the event have decided not to, so now I'm left with the rest. The failed runs have been full of players that have been... glorious uncooperative.

Normally, I stick all of the revenants, engineers, warriors, thieves, and chronomancers onto the CC teams. Elementalists, too, if I have to compromise. Because I specifically ask for these classes, this means that a particularly entrepreneurial player will swap from their other classes to these ones, in the hopes that I will succeed at the event. I also ask for specific specializations, even among the non-CC classes, so a particularly helpful player will change that, too. Likewise, I ask for power builds to go with these classes, and again a self-actualizing player will go with this. This has a side effect: group 1, the big group is going to be full of all of the players who either can't or won't do this. Earlier today when I hosted, I had 3 druids, 5 scourges, 3 mirages, presumably all of them condi, all in the zerg. That is 11 players who are either ill-equipped or uncooperative, and are effectively dead weight.

My last two fails haven't been from a lack of CC. It has been from a lack of DPS. On each attempt, the CC squads have been getting their zealot down to 60% by the time my bloated group 1 has been able to kill the first one. Of course, most of the event has passed, so predictably the event fails by the time we get to the third or fourth zealot. On each successful break, the group 1 zealot's health only goes down 2% or 3%, which is barely anything at all. This, combined with the fact that the event is marked by one gigantic circle (indicating that the zealots scale globally instead of just singularly as we all presumed), has me second guessing the hybrid strats.

I have discovered yet another really big issue with how this event works. It is horribly unfair to condition builds. Unlike the Great Jungle Wurm, the zealots do not have an application window. They have a damage window. Somewhere around 5 or 6 seconds. After those 5 seconds are up, any ticking conditions might as well not exist. Now, you can apply conditions to the zealot before this window pops up, but realistically you'll be doing CC at this time, inflicting very few conditions as a whole. This means that, while a power build can unload a lot of damage in those 5 seconds, a condi build gets the vast majority of their damage cut away by game mechanics.

This explains the recent DPS problem. Group 1 is full of an unholy amount of Soul Beasts, Druids, Scourges, Reapers, Mirages, and Fire Brands. These are all builds filled with conditions that last 10-20 seconds, and given only a 5 second window to even apply these conditions, most of their damage ends up being cut away. Even with the other teams giving periodic drops in zealot defenses, these conditions are still only hitting for a small fraction during those times.

This has caused me to have a great hatred for Condi Scourges. They have the longest ramp up time, a low DPS overall, low hybrid and power DPS, terrible CC, and I swear they are the most popular class in the overworld. Every time I form, the Condi Scourge will outnumber every other class that joins, by far. Some of them will swap to reaper at my behest, but every time it is Scourges everywhere! Is it because all the players who are dedicated exclusive scourge users also can't complete the event, so they keep showing up every day?

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:This has caused me to have a great hatred for Condi Scourges. They have the longest ramp up time, a low DPS overall, low hybrid and power DPS, terrible CC, and I swear they are the most popular class in the overworld. Every time I form, the Condi Scourge will outnumber every other class that joins, by far. Some of them will swap to reaper at my behest, but every time it is Scourges everywhere! Is it because all the players who are dedicated exclusive scourge users also can't complete the event, so they keep showing up every day?

They are just trying to show who is the real scourge of vabbi ;)

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