Elite Specializations, Gear and Expansions

[maddoctor.2738]

I'm opening this thread because I had a very bad experience recently. A friend of mine is a Raid veteran, has been raiding for a long time with no problems on his Druid.Recently he got on a pug team and they really bashed him for still using Magi stats. And here comes the problem, the "meta" stat for Druids is Harrier but that stat combination is only available in Path of Fire and my friend doesn't have Path of Fire, yet. This creates a serious problem, and as more expansions are released this will become even worse and it's not only gear stats that are problematic.

Druids and Chronomancers are standard in all Raid groups, yet Path of Fire didn't introduce anything resembling those two, which means, in order to Raid in current and future Raids, some players MUST have Heart of Thorns. In a very similar way, Weavers topped Tempests in terms of damage, therefore in order to be accepted in Raids as an Elementalist you must play a Weaver which is only available in Path of Fire.

What I'm getting at here, is that access to Raids for many is blocked by expansion purchase, either for stats or elite specializations and this shouldn't be the case. And now a proposal on how to "fix" this problem and at the same time address the major problem of build diversity:

Make sure that each expansion has at least some specs that are focused on support and healing and each time apply to a different profession, so Chronos and Druids are an option, not a necessity. Nearly (all?) the elite specializations in Path of Fire are dps specs, or can be dps specs. I find it unthinkable that a developer team creates content that is really hard to complete (Raids) without access to the previous expansions.When new Raids for an expansion are released, the developers should make absolutely sure every single encounter is doable with the elite specializations available with that particular expansion and not "require" previous specs. Imagine Hall of Chains without Druids, Chronos and Tempests. Every expansion should be self-contained with specs from itself, if specs from other expansions are required then it's bad design.Imagine if Firebrand could replace Chrono and Scourge could replace Druid (randomly selected specs don't focus on the selection), build diversity would grow, past expansions wouldn't be absolutely essential for future Raids and everyone wins. Except for the developers I guess that will have to design a good healer and good support on each expansion :)

Now about gear stats it's a bit more tricky and I'm not sure how to make that work. Raid gear having the option to swap to stat combos of another expansion maybe?

tl;dr Accessibility of Raids (and any other content) shouldn't depend on past expansion purchases, either for elite spec or gear stat access. An expansion should be self contained and provide all the tools required to beat all of its content, this includes Raids.

[Draco.9480]

or he could buy mordant inscriptions and insignias, change his asc magi gear to harrier while not needing the expansion and still use magi trinkets. he have to understand the role of druid isn't only a healer but also to provide might and other boons. if he can't do that then he shouldn't raid at all with it.

[TexZero.7910]

@maddoctor.2738 said:tl;dr Accessibility of Raids (and any other content) shouldn't depend on past expansion purchases, either for elite spec or gear stat access. An expansion should be self contained and provide all the tools required to beat all of its content, this includes Raids.

One could make the argument that this is already the case, however people stick with what's familiar and optimal over what's new and interesting.As it stands i'm almost positive you can complete hall of chains with core specs, meaning any additional elites are just there for flavor.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Imagine if Firebrand could replace Chrono and Scourge could replace Druid (randomly selected specs don't focus on the selection), build diversity would grow, past expansions wouldn't be absolutely essential for future Raids and everyone wins. Except for the developers I guess that will have to design a good healer and good support on each expansion :)They tried, and they failed due to the overblown kits of chrono and druid with which FB and renegade simply cannot compete. If the balance team cared (and/or was competent), we'd have the build diversity you desire.

With regard to gear, the issue becomes a bit more tricky. There will always be one optimal stat combo for a given task (e.g. viper for the average condi build), so unless they unlock the gear-expansion thing, and I don't see that happening, we'll have a problem here. Heal druids, btw, are still a relatively small problem, since harrier insignias aren't account-bound and there are alternative stats with healing/concentration, e.g. minstrel.

[thrag.9740]

I agree that each expansion should give something competitive with the builds from the other expansions. i.e firebrand+renegade should be more competitive with chrono+druid. We tried out a firebrand + renegade tonight for fun, maybe the build wasn't correct, but I was not impressed with the alacrity uptime I received. As a dps condi warrior I was very aware of the fact that I could not get off the final scorched earth in the rotation (let alone a flaming flurry).

[Brynioch.1873]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'm opening this thread because I had a very bad experience recently. A friend of mine is a Raid veteran, has been raiding for a long time with no problems on his Druid.Recently he got on a pug team and they really bashed him for still using Magi stats. And here comes the problem, the "meta" stat for Druids is Harrier but that stat combination is only available in Path of Fire and my friend doesn't have Path of Fire, yet. This creates a serious problem, and as more expansions are released this will become even worse and it's not only gear stats that are problematic.

Druids and Chronomancers are standard in all Raid groups, yet Path of Fire didn't introduce anything resembling those two, which means, in order to Raid in current and future Raids, some players MUST have Heart of Thorns. In a very similar way, Weavers topped Tempests in terms of damage, therefore in order to be accepted in Raids as an Elementalist you must play a Weaver which is only available in Path of Fire.

What I'm getting at here, is that access to Raids for many is blocked by expansion purchase, either for stats or elite specializations and this shouldn't be the case. And now a proposal on how to "fix" this problem and at the same time address the major problem of build diversity:

Make sure that each expansion has at least some specs that are focused on support and healing and each time apply to a different profession, so Chronos and Druids are an option, not a necessity. Nearly (all?) the elite specializations in Path of Fire are dps specs, or can be dps specs. I find it unthinkable that a developer team creates content that is really hard to complete (Raids) without access to the previous expansions.When new Raids for an expansion are released, the developers should make absolutely sure every single encounter is doable with the elite specializations available with that particular expansion and not "require" previous specs. Imagine Hall of Chains without Druids, Chronos and Tempests. Every expansion should be self-contained with specs from itself, if specs from other expansions are required then it's bad design.Imagine if Firebrand could replace Chrono and Scourge could replace Druid (randomly selected specs don't focus on the selection), build diversity would grow, past expansions wouldn't be absolutely essential for future Raids and everyone wins. Except for the developers I guess that will have to design a good healer and good support on each expansion :)

Now about gear stats it's a bit more tricky and I'm not sure how to make that work. Raid gear having the option to swap to stat combos of another expansion maybe?

tl;dr Accessibility of Raids (and any other content) shouldn't depend on past expansion purchases, either for elite spec or gear stat access. An expansion should be self contained and provide all the tools required to beat all of its content, this includes Raids.

The options are already there. But why take two people for alacrity and quickness and pass on ranger buffs when you can have both in one person and the buffs?The main problem is that chronomancer is so absurdly overloaded. You can manage basically everything except 25 might; CC, pulls, reflect, boons, to an extend even healing. Druid just happens to have the most unique offensive buffs and can fill the might gap. The problem is the chronomancer not the druid.Removing boon share from mesmer would make balancing a lot easier.

The access to raids is also blocked by expansions as you need the corresponding expansion to enter the raids. Wing 1-4 HoT, Wing 5 PoF.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Draco.9480" said:or he could buy mordant inscriptions and insignias, change his asc magi gear to harrier while not needing the expansion and still use magi trinkets. he have to understand the role of druid isn't only a healer but also to provide might and other boons. if he can't do that then he shouldn't raid at all with it.

Someone that has been raiding on that build for years, now "shouldn't raid at all" after the expansion hit? That doesn't really sound reasonable to me. So in order to play support you need BOTH expansions, Druid is in Heart of Thorns and Harrier is in Path of Fire. What happens when the next expansion gives us a Ranger pet that becomes "essential"? In order to support you'd need THREE expansions now. And with the fourth expansion something else, and so on. This isn't good design.

[maddoctor.2738]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:tl;dr Accessibility of Raids (and any other content) shouldn't depend on past expansion purchases, either for elite spec or gear stat access. An expansion should be self contained and provide all the tools required to beat all of its content, this includes Raids.

One could make the argument that this is already the case, however people stick with what's familiar and optimal over what's new and interesting.As it stands i'm almost positive you can complete hall of chains with core specs, meaning any additional elites are just there for flavor.

Are you really sure about that? I haven't seen anyone trying it, but even if it's possible to beat Hall of Chains only using core specs, how efficient would it be?

[maddoctor.2738]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:They tried, and they failed due to the overblown kits of chrono and druid with which FB and renegade simply cannot compete. If the balance team cared (and/or was competent), we'd have the build diversity you desire.

Sad truth. But can we change that? Can the diversity be saved?

[Tarasicodissa.7084]

Are you actually serious? If you believe that any expansion content can only by beaten if own a different expansion, there is some serious l2p issue, doesn't have anything to do with how the game is structured.

Minstrel gear is available in HoT, so is the sigil of concentration. You can easily get enough boon duration on a druid to maintain might without PoF. Not that any of this matters, most bosses have been beaten with 5 or less people, using 10 of the same class, people only running masterwork gear and other various strategies proving you can beat raids with virtually anything so long as you're competent.

As far as Anet's plan with expansions, it's only natural they wanna sell the new ones and force players to buy them to remain efficient. The original plan was not having power creep in this game, but let's face it - it's still a business and Anet naturally wants to make money. They will do whatever they need to sell the new expansions, even if it means releasing stuff that is brokenly overpowered compared to old builds (and making content harder to require this new stuff). I have no problem with that, every serious player will simply keep up with Anet's releases and buy whatever is needed. It's not like they release a 100$ expansion every two months. Absolutely pointless QQ.

[Henry.5713]

The easiest way to acquire something partly locked behind an expansion is to purchase said expansion. He seems to have enjoyed countless of hours of high quality content as an active raider alraedy. Don't see how this is too much to ask. Not to mention that there are indeed valid alternatives to harrier as far as gear choices are concerned.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:They tried, and they failed due to the overblown kits of chrono and druid with which FB and renegade simply cannot compete. If the balance team cared (and/or was competent), we'd have the build diversity you desire.

Sad truth. But can we change that? Can the diversity be saved?

Apart from constantly reminding the devs that their balance is crap, I see little we can do.

[TexZero.7910]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:tl;dr Accessibility of Raids (and any other content) shouldn't depend on past expansion purchases, either for elite spec or gear stat access. An expansion should be self contained and provide all the tools required to beat all of its content, this includes Raids.

One could make the argument that this is already the case, however people stick with what's familiar and optimal over what's new and interesting.As it stands i'm almost positive you can complete hall of chains with core specs, meaning any additional elites are just there for flavor.

Are you really sure about that? I haven't seen anyone trying it, but even if it's possible to beat Hall of Chains only using core specs, how efficient would it be?

I haven't seen it tried, but that's kinda my point....Why would they ?I'm sure it can be done, but there's no reason to ride a bicycle on a nascar track when you can have a nascar itself.

[Draco.9480]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Draco.9480" said:or he could buy mordant inscriptions and insignias, change his asc magi gear to harrier while not needing the expansion and still use magi trinkets. he have to understand the role of druid isn't only a healer but also to provide might and other boons. if he can't do that then he shouldn't raid at all with it.

Someone that has been raiding on that build for years, now "shouldn't raid at all" after the expansion hit? That doesn't really sound reasonable to me. So in order to play support you need BOTH expansions, Druid is in Heart of Thorns and Harrier is in Path of Fire. What happens when the next expansion gives us a Ranger pet that becomes "essential"? In order to support you'd need THREE expansions now. And with the fourth expansion something else, and so on. This isn't good design.

did you even read what i suggested? or you listen to yourself??????? he can change 2/3 of his gear to what needed and keep magi trinkets to might properly. if he only wants to play druid when it was used for X only and HoT and refuses to buy other expansion to min max then it's his problem. either he should play warrior to be banners with both power and dot sets or play chrono. if he wants to be a dps he needs PoF. druid still is doable without expansion cuz you can get harrier gear for armor and weapons without it. PLEASE READ before complaining.

also not wanting to support the game he enjoys anymore which is only 30usd once just shows he doesn't really care about raiding and wants to get weekly rewards without effort. refusing to put in your character or refusing to buy an expansion isn't the future for him to enjoy the game nor for anet to get us more content. funding the game means higher chance to get more raids. I wouldn't call him veteran raider at all with that mentality.

[Holykitten.3064]

End game content requiring you to own the most current version of the game is hardly a new concept in online gaming.Things change, optimisation changes, things get buffed/nerfed.What you’re asking for is basically wanting to bake the perfect cake, without the best ingredients.But let’s not forget, Anet doesn’t create the benchmark nor the meta, players do.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

I don't know, sounds like "start your own group instead" case :)

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

1) minmaxed support druid dont use full harrier. There are alot of possibilities how to gear druid "correctly". If i am correct the most minmaxed support druid uses mix of minstrel magi and harrier, and you can get harrier from TP even if you dont own PoF.2) one static on my discord server use 1 chrono, 1 soulbeast with spirits, healer renegade and quickness condi firebrand on some bosses and they have better group dps then standard comp.3) if you can play on same level without expansion as someone with it you dont have to buy it -> no money for anet4) there will always be best option, maybe next patch healer warrior will be best and druid might not be accepted at all