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Question For All of You: Is Preaching A Religion or a Political Viewpoint Allowed By The ToS?


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@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:Wait....does that mean anything I just said matters?I thought you were pretty spot on with most of it. In short it's just the nature of mankind. People believe their way is the best and if you think differently in a reasonably feasible way, it bothers. You get a conversation. Or in OP's words@"Andrew Man.7239" said:once someone says something you disagree with... It's human nature to argue your sidePeople like OP (and most people for that matter) simply don't want to engage. This doesn't mean they're unable to engage, but likely view the endeavor as a waste of time given the meaningless medium.

That's not to say chat in GW2 is meaningless but rather that some grand complex issue of religion or politics isn't done justice or given a fair shake on Guild Wars 2 map chat for either side. And that's not on the game for any reason.

Guild Wars 2 is for playing the grand game that is Guild Wars 2. Not for complex sociopolitical debates. That said I also personally don't want to live to see a world where we can't just casually talk about whatever, which is what we can do right now, imperfect as it is.

So while I share OP's distaste of mapchat sociopolitical trolls (and I have a rather unflattering name for my mapchat tab), I'm also not too keen on enforcing some kind of "approved safe-talk" list. I don't want people to be afraid to use mapchat for fear of offense or punishment, even the stupid ones that I rather dislike.

The games who strictly enforce this (looking at you Overwatch) effectively kill their in-game community and actually make the entire scene worse because the people who are decent are afraid to talk for fear of punishment and the rather stupid ones never cared much for what the rules say in the first place.

So in your "safe-talk" space you end up with a bunch of malcontents who literally exist just to spew their nonsense and a bunch of timid people who value their accounts in complete radio silence. Maybe play whack-a-mole with the report feature until they get tired of the situation and move on.

Given the choice between the two, I'd rather simply deal with who I run into on my own terms given the tools Anet has already given me rather than ask Anet to nanny state my video game banter.

I had considered the part about the game being ruined or heavily altered by this, but I think I found a solution.Instead of loading the game, going into map chat and saying, "The Rapture is coming. Join God to rise to Heaven" you could say, "Hey, who wants to debate with me about religion/insert sensitive subject in //whisper// chat? Because when person expresses an opposing opinion, it's almost guaranteed that the whole thing it's just going to escalate and escalate until everyone is talking about it and the map chat is now an unstable cesspool.I'm not sure that there should be some kind of "PG Channel" or anything. I'd just like people to use whisper chat for that sort of thing. So I guess this is more of a PSA now?

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Um, Praise Joko!

There's an old-fashioned thing called "taste" and once upon a time people would concern themselves with avoiding doing things that were deemed in poor taste. Now, unfortunately, vulgarity, crassness and bad taste are less the exception and more the rule. The only constant is human nature, that doesn't change - but the pendulum of extremes is always moving.

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I think the principle is fairly straightforward, and as has been said does not pertain to first amendment rights. In any community oriented to a particular end (here GW2), conversation that is off-topic is always inappropriate. In-game discussion and postings here should pertain to the game. I've seen everything in game chat from politics and religion to people wishing to process psychological issues and the desire to commit suicide. While it may be important that these issues be discussed somewhere, in game or on gaming forums is not the place.

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@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Taken from the TOS:You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist,anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

So, I would guess religion or political talks are fine, as long as people stay civil.

So talking about god or presidency is fine, but talking about atheism or anarchy is against ToS?
  • thinking

Based on what you quoted, atheism and anarchism are perfectly fine topics for discussion.

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@Edelweiss.4261 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Taken from the TOS:You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist,anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

So, I would guess religion or political talks are fine, as long as people stay civil.

So talking about god or presidency is fine, but talking about atheism or anarchy is against ToS?
  • thinking

Based on what you quoted, atheism and anarchism are perfectly fine topics for discussion.

I feel like people took my comment a little to seriouslyHe he ^,^"

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I don't want to read this sort of thing in map chat, but I don't want people banned for doing it either. I think reporting is over the top unless its devolved into name calling and hate speech. Maybe other player's DO want to engage with them in a constructive way. For this reason I use the block function rather than report.

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Had one of those annoyances whisper me and started talking about Jesus, their lord and savior.

Since I've had this talk way too many times, I just went for Joko, my lord and savior. One of the few times where having a second monitor was more crucial than playing the game (was going through all the Joko stuff on gw2 wiki) as I was spamming this guy with Joko stuff he eventually blocked me. Guess they don't like the taste of their own medicine.

Praise Joko btw.

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while i don't think there is anything Anet can or will do about it, your best bet is to either block/ignore them, or report if it borders on the harassment or spam side of things. Personally, i don't think religious talk in a game is the proper place for it, but in a private setting (guild or party for instance), its whatever floats your boat. that being said, I have had my share of religious conversations in game with people, but not in an open chat session. I try to avoid them and those people as I think it makes the game something other then a game.

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https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/the-forums-code-of-conduct/

Major Religions / Religious or Political Figuresnegatively portray major religions or religious figures / negatively portray major political figures or national or world leaders

Nationalismpromote national hatred / use slurs or terms intended to insult people from a specific country / allude to symbols of national hatred

At face value, it seems like it's OK to discuss religion/politics on the forums as long as we don't say anything negative, insult others, or promote hatred. But generally they don't allow it because such conversations always end up in heated arguments.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/The game's code of conduct doesn't mention anything specific about discussing such topics, other than you can't harass others over their religious beliefs (or other things like sexual orientation, gender, etc., etc.). No hate speech, racism, etc., etc. At face value it seems we can discuss such things in the game, as long as we aren't harassing others over their opinions. But like the forums, even though it's not technically banned, they prefer players don't discuss such topics in game. Hell, right after the 2016 Presidential election ArenaNet actually asked players on the forums not to discuss politics in the game because things were getting pretty heated.

The truth is, we don't have free speech on the internet at all. Any company can dictate what we can and can't say on their platforms.

And it's somewhere in the ToS that states the company can terminate an account for any reason, or no reason, as well as changing the ToS whenever they want. Which literally means they can make up the rules for anything not specifically mentioned. If they want to ban someone for discussing politics or religion, they can, even though it isn't specifically against the rules to discuss such topics.

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The ToS itself takes a U.S. liberal + humanist standpoint. It is O.K. to talk about anything, so long as it fits within the acceptable range as deemed by that standpoint. Unfortunately, this means that there are a lot of conservative positions that are considered punishable on sight, as I and many others have learned the hard way.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The ToS itself takes a U.S. liberal + humanist standpoint. It is O.K. to talk about anything, so long as it fits within the acceptable range as deemed by that standpoint. Unfortunately, this means that there are a lot of conservative positions that are considered punishable on sight, as I and many others have learned the hard way.

If being against racism is considered liberal, then yes they are. You are not going to get away with saying something that most people except for certain (not all) conservatives would consider racist. However it is equally objectionable if someone uses map chat to tell me that the Western canon starting with Plato is racist and I am racist for reading it. A lot more people than just conservatives do not agree with that. If you want to explain to us why a certain standpoint that most people consider racist isn't, this isn't the place to do it. There are other venues for that.

If your point is about the suppression of free speech, I am with you, but an MMO is not a place to have to listen to individuals proclaim their religious, anti-religious, or political platforms. That's not why we're here.

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For me, it is a game. I come to play and get fun. I don't want to be bothered in map chat by political talks and/or talk about religion. At earlier times, when such discussions were starting, I was asking the persons to go on whisper or party to free the map chat of their talks, but regularly, I got insulted for that. So, now, I simply block. Fortunately, it usually happens only over the weekend, and it remains sporadic. At least at my playing times. Also my experience is that it takes place mainly in Lion Arch, so I simply avoid to pass by the town over weekends. :)

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@Oneira.7691 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:The ToS itself takes a U.S. liberal + humanist standpoint. It is O.K. to talk about anything, so long as it fits within the acceptable range as deemed by that standpoint. Unfortunately, this means that there are a lot of conservative positions that are considered punishable on sight, as I and many others have learned the hard way.

If being against racism is considered liberal, then yes they are. You are not going to get away with saying something that most people except for certain (not all) conservatives would consider racist. However it is equally objectionable if someone uses map chat to tell me that the Western canon starting with Plato is racist and I am racist for reading it. A lot more people than just conservatives do not agree with that. If you want to explain to us why a certain standpoint that most people consider racist isn't, this isn't the place to do it. There are other venues for that.

If your point is about the suppression of free speech, I am with you, but an MMO is not a place to have to listen to individuals proclaim their religious, anti-religious, or political platforms. That's not why we're here.

The fact that you defaulted to racism speaks leaps and bounds about your beliefs, but I'll use this as an example. The two sides in politics have different definitions of what constitutes racism. Particularly, the Left defines it as "Privilege + Prejudice", while the Right defines it as "characteristics assigned to skin color". The key difference being that, for the Left, you are allowed to be as prejudiced as you want so long as you are not part of the privileged class. A second divide is what constitutes a racist act. The Right (well, most of it) strives to be utterly colorblind and treat everyone the same. The Left strives to meet the individual needs and expectations of different cultures. These views utterly contradict each other in practice; treating everyone the same is considered culturally insensitive and "_____ normative" of some type by the Left. But treating everyone differently based on, well, how they look is considered prejudicial by the Right.

It is not simply about proclaiming these stances. These sets of beliefs aren't simply a badge to be worn in the agglomeration of trivial labels that make you a unique and special individual. These beliefs change how you see things, how you act, what constitutes normal, and also define what is right and wrong by extension of logic. You'll get someone who will make an off-the-cuff comment that is completely acceptable and reasonable in their eyes, but is regarded as anathema by the community here. What you consider ism isn't what everyone else considers ism, and that is going to come to a head from time to time.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The ToS itself takes a U.S. liberal + humanist standpoint. It is O.K. to talk about anything, so long as it fits within the acceptable range as deemed by that standpoint. Unfortunately, this means that there are a lot of conservative positions that are considered punishable on sight, as I and many others have learned the hard way.

I agree with this. The rules are set up to encourage an echo chamber on certain topics(really noticeable on the forums). I do think it is okay to chat about religion and politics so long is there are interested parties, but I don't think it is cool to proselytize map wide to people who are obviously not interested.

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@Dashingsteel.3410 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The ToS itself takes a U.S. liberal + humanist standpoint. It is O.K. to talk about anything, so long as it fits within the acceptable range as deemed by that standpoint. Unfortunately, this means that there are a lot of conservative positions that are considered punishable on sight, as I and many others have learned the hard way.

I agree with this. The rules are set up to encourage an echo chamber on certain topics(really noticeable on the forums). I do think it is okay to chat about religion and politics so long is there are interested parties, but I don't think it is cool to proselytize map wide to people who are obviously not interested.

Keep in mind that the topic of this thread wasnt about interested people chatting about the topics mentioned but rather about people preaching their views on the topics in map chat.

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@Fluffball.8307 said:Never enable map chat, you lunatic! You get the religious and trump nutballs preaching the end of the world. :p

Is that the US mapchat? Playing on EU, we do get the nutjobs every now and then, preaching whatever ideology is theirs but I have never seen ppl go on about it for hours or, as mentioned in the OP, copy/pasing scriptures into mapchat or trying to missionize the pvp lobby. o.O

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The ToS itself takes a U.S. liberal + humanist standpoint. It is O.K. to talk about anything, so long as it fits within the acceptable range as deemed by that standpoint. Unfortunately, this means that there are a lot of conservative positions that are considered punishable on sight, as I and many others have learned the hard way.

If being against racism is considered liberal, then yes they are. You are not going to get away with saying something that most people except for certain (not all) conservatives would consider racist. However it is equally objectionable if someone uses map chat to tell me that the Western canon starting with Plato is racist and I am racist for reading it. A lot more people than just conservatives do not agree with that. If you want to explain to us why a certain standpoint that most people consider racist isn't, this isn't the place to do it. There are other venues for that.

If your point is about the suppression of free speech, I am with you, but an MMO is not a place to have to listen to individuals proclaim their religious, anti-religious, or political platforms. That's not why we're here.

The fact that you defaulted to racism speaks leaps and bounds about your beliefs, but I'll use this as an example. The two sides in politics have different definitions of what constitutes racism. Particularly, the Left defines it as "Privilege + Prejudice", while the Right defines it as "characteristics assigned to skin color". The key difference being that, for the Left, you are allowed to be as prejudiced as you want so long as you are not part of the privileged class. A second divide is what constitutes a racist act. The Right (well, most of it) strives to be utterly colorblind and treat everyone the same. The Left strives to meet the individual needs and expectations of different cultures. These views utterly contradict each other in practice; treating everyone the same is considered culturally insensitive and "_____ normative" of some type by the Left. But treating everyone differently based on, well, how they look is considered prejudicial by the Right.

It is not simply about proclaiming these stances. These sets of beliefs aren't simply a badge to be worn in the agglomeration of trivial labels that make you a unique and special individual. These beliefs change how you see things, how you act, what constitutes normal, and also define what is right and wrong by extension of logic. You'll get someone who will make an off-the-cuff comment that is completely acceptable and reasonable in their eyes, but is regarded as anathema by the community here. What you consider
ism isn't what everyone else considers
ism, and that is going to come to a head from time to time.

The fact that I defaulted to racism is because racism has been raised in this thread, not because of any beliefs that you would like to impute to me. And your explanation of how the left sees racism and the right sees racism is accurate for some and for others a gross generalization that suffers from the tendency to paint everyone in a given group with the same brush.

The point is, this is not the place to discuss this stuff, which is why I'm not going to go into a long answer to you. I want to play the game.

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