Oh Hey Mesmer Nerfs

[mortrialus.3062]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's a lot.

[Vieux P.1238]

Din't i say last week to Ori Ori no matter how many nerfs you give mesmers..peeps will never be happy? Yeah i did..

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Credit where Credit is due.

These changes are spot on for the Chronobunker overperforming spec.

Now if we could just do something about Elusive mind. I don't even care that Mirage can do stupid condi burst with staff. That's fine. The only thing we need is to be able to lock the mirage down if they screw up.

Good progress though. Thanks for paying attention dev team.

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

[mortrialus.3062]

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

[sephiroth.4217]

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

Running Concentration on your build will give you 2s of stability per shatter.That's still pretty good considering you have 6+ shatters up your sleeve if you run Shatter Storm trait, 12s of Stability, that can be shared.

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

Running Concentration on your build will give you 2s of stability per shatter.That's still pretty good considering you have 6+ shatters up your sleeve if you run Shatter Storm trait, 12s of Stability, that can be shared.

Meh...the current concentration amulets are too glassy imo and with a base 1s duration you'd have to get 100% boonduration to get to 2 seconds, so Id call that highly unlikely.

[sephiroth.4217]

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

Running Concentration on your build will give you 2s of stability per shatter.That's still pretty good considering you have 6+ shatters up your sleeve if you run Shatter Storm trait, 12s of Stability, that can be shared.

Meh...the current concentration amulets are too glassy imo and with a base 1s duration you'd have to get 100% boonduration to get to 2 seconds, so Id call that highly unlikely.

I don't get how you can say "unlikely" when it can easily be done and there are a few Harrier/Diviner Mesmers already running around.

It's like saying the sun will unlikely rise tomorrow.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

Running Concentration on your build will give you 2s of stability per shatter.That's still pretty good considering you have 6+ shatters up your sleeve if you run Shatter Storm trait, 12s of Stability, that can be shared.

Meh...the current concentration amulets are too glassy imo and with a base 1s duration you'd have to get 100% boonduration to get to 2 seconds, so Id call that highly unlikely.

I don't get how you can say "unlikely" when it can easily be done and there are a few Harrier/Diviner Mesmers already running around.

It's like saying the sun will unlikely rise tomorrow.

Oh, I didnt mean in terms of "possibility" to make such builds...but rather was talking about how viable such a build could be.Its like discussing the optimal condi ranger spec for PvP ...which, sure, you can make the best one available, but that doesnt mean its automatically viable

[sephiroth.4217]

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

Running Concentration on your build will give you 2s of stability per shatter.That's still pretty good considering you have 6+ shatters up your sleeve if you run Shatter Storm trait, 12s of Stability, that can be shared.

Meh...the current concentration amulets are too glassy imo and with a base 1s duration you'd have to get 100% boonduration to get to 2 seconds, so Id call that highly unlikely.

I don't get how you can say "unlikely" when it can easily be done and there are a few Harrier/Diviner Mesmers already running around.

It's like saying the sun will unlikely rise tomorrow.

Oh, I didnt mean in terms of "possibility" to make such builds...but rather was talking about how viable such a build could be.Its like discussing the optimal condi ranger spec for PvP ...which, sure, you can make the best one available, but that doesnt mean its automatically viable

We probably have different terms of viability... Viable to me is anything that can hold it's own in Platinum or against top tier players of which Diviner/Harrier with Leadership Runes does that.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

Running Concentration on your build will give you 2s of stability per shatter.That's still pretty good considering you have 6+ shatters up your sleeve if you run Shatter Storm trait, 12s of Stability, that can be shared.

Meh...the current concentration amulets are too glassy imo and with a base 1s duration you'd have to get 100% boonduration to get to 2 seconds, so Id call that highly unlikely.

I don't get how you can say "unlikely" when it can easily be done and there are a few Harrier/Diviner Mesmers already running around.

It's like saying the sun will unlikely rise tomorrow.

Oh, I didnt mean in terms of "possibility" to make such builds...but rather was talking about how viable such a build could be.Its like discussing the optimal condi ranger spec for PvP ...which, sure, you can make the best one available, but that doesnt mean its automatically viable

We probably have different terms of viability... Viable to me is anything that can hold it's own in Platinum or against top tier players of which Diviner/Harrier with Leadership Runes does that.

Hmmm. I mean, ever since the patch I have seen some chronos here and there, but I didn't think they d be running diviner or harrier. Like, I can see harrier work (since it also brings some healing) but without some extra vitality or toughness (like from paladins) I just dont see how it could compete with other top tier dueling specs.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

[bLind.6278]

Nerfs were too late for a lot of people.

[sephiroth.4217]

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@BikeIsGone.8675 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

Running Concentration on your build will give you 2s of stability per shatter.That's still pretty good considering you have 6+ shatters up your sleeve if you run Shatter Storm trait, 12s of Stability, that can be shared.

Meh...the current concentration amulets are too glassy imo and with a base 1s duration you'd have to get 100% boonduration to get to 2 seconds, so Id call that highly unlikely.

I don't get how you can say "unlikely" when it can easily be done and there are a few Harrier/Diviner Mesmers already running around.

It's like saying the sun will unlikely rise tomorrow.

Oh, I didnt mean in terms of "possibility" to make such builds...but rather was talking about how viable such a build could be.Its like discussing the optimal condi ranger spec for PvP ...which, sure, you can make the best one available, but that doesnt mean its automatically viable

We probably have different terms of viability... Viable to me is anything that can hold it's own in Platinum or against top tier players of which Diviner/Harrier with Leadership Runes does that.

Hmmm. I mean, ever since the patch I have seen some chronos here and there, but I didn't think they d be running diviner or harrier. Like, I can see harrier work (since it also brings some healing) but without some extra vitality or toughness (like from paladins) I just dont see how it could compete with other top tier dueling specs.

Besides my own Harrier build, I've seen 1 other Harrier and 2 or so Diviners... I wouldn't say it's a popular build or even optimal but it still works.. Things might have changed since I posted though, pretty sure a lot of Mesmers are working through the specs to find the next broken thing to carry us :lol:

But more to the point, we have 5-6 shatters and without concentration that is 5-6 seconds of stability if timed right, the change is good as it makes you shatter on reaction rather than maintaining stacks...

[apharma.3741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

That would effect every Mesmer build. We just need condi spam toned down. Fighting a single Mirage feels like fighting two other condition classes at the same time, it's too much.

[apharma.3741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

That would effect every Mesmer build. We just need condi spam toned down. Fighting a single Mirage feels like fighting two other condition classes at the same time, it's too much.

No it wouldn’t it would affect mirage builds only.

Maybe you should create a mesmer and see if torch is a problem on chrono or core mesmer.

[Chaith.8256]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

[apharma.3741]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

Yes if I remember correctly the burns were reduced in intensity but increased in duration, I would have no problem with them becoming 2 stacks for 4s or 1 stack for 8s but that isn’t what these 2 people asked for.

Trevor didn’t ask for a rebalance of stacks and duration he asked for flat nerfs as did Mortrialus.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

Yes if I remember correctly the burns were reduced in intensity but increased in duration, I would have no problem with them becoming 2 stacks for 4s or 1 stack for 8s but that isn’t what these 2 people asked for.

Trevor didn’t ask for a rebalance of stacks and duration he asked for flat nerfs as did Mortrialus.

I actually didn't say anything at all outside of:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

[apharma.3741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

Yes if I remember correctly the burns were reduced in intensity but increased in duration, I would have no problem with them becoming 2 stacks for 4s or 1 stack for 8s but that isn’t what these 2 people asked for.

Trevor didn’t ask for a rebalance of stacks and duration he asked for flat nerfs as did Mortrialus.

I actually didn't say anything at all outside of:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Considering more than half the nerfs to chrono were flat 50% damage reductions it was more than implied that you wished for its total damage to likewise be reduced. However if what you meant was a redistribution of burn stacks vs duration so it keeps the same total damage just over a longer time period I’ll happily admit it’s been a misunderstanding.

[Chaith.8256]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

Yes if I remember correctly the burns were reduced in intensity but increased in duration, I would have no problem with them becoming 2 stacks for 4s or 1 stack for 8s but that isn’t what these 2 people asked for.

Trevor didn’t ask for a rebalance of stacks and duration he asked for flat nerfs as did Mortrialus.

I actually didn't say anything at all outside of:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Considering more than half the nerfs to chrono were flat 50% damage reductions it was more than implied that you wished for its total damage to likewise be reduced. However if what you meant was a redistribution of burn stacks vs duration so it keeps the same total damage just over a longer time period I’ll happily admit it’s been a misunderstanding.

You know that nerfing stacks from 3 for 3s to 1 for 8s, that IS a 50% flat nerf to the performance, right? Ok then. sips coffee

[Josif.2015]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

Yes if I remember correctly the burns were reduced in intensity but increased in duration, I would have no problem with them becoming 2 stacks for 4s or 1 stack for 8s but that isn’t what these 2 people asked for.

Trevor didn’t ask for a rebalance of stacks and duration he asked for flat nerfs as did Mortrialus.

I actually didn't say anything at all outside of:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Considering more than half the nerfs to chrono were flat 50% damage reductions it was more than implied that you wished for its total damage to likewise be reduced. However if what you meant was a redistribution of burn stacks vs duration so it keeps the same total damage just over a longer time period I’ll happily admit it’s been a misunderstanding.

You know that nerfing stacks from 3 for 3s to 1 for 8s, that IS a 50% flat nerf to the performance, right? Ok then.

sips coffee

If only they did the opposite of this for condi engineer.

[Chaith.8256]

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

Yes if I remember correctly the burns were reduced in intensity but increased in duration, I would have no problem with them becoming 2 stacks for 4s or 1 stack for 8s but that isn’t what these 2 people asked for.

Trevor didn’t ask for a rebalance of stacks and duration he asked for flat nerfs as did Mortrialus.

I actually didn't say anything at all outside of:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Considering more than half the nerfs to chrono were flat 50% damage reductions it was more than implied that you wished for its total damage to likewise be reduced. However if what you meant was a redistribution of burn stacks vs duration so it keeps the same total damage just over a longer time period I’ll happily admit it’s been a misunderstanding.

You know that nerfing stacks from 3 for 3s to 1 for 8s, that IS a 50% flat nerf to the performance, right? Ok then.

sips coffee

If only they did the opposite of this for condi engineer.

Hah yeah, going from 1 stack for 8s to 3 stacks for 3s on say, Incendiary Ammo ticks would be a monstrous buff. Vice versa as well.. it amuses me that anyone out there exists who would think that's not a huge fat nerf to go from 3 to 1 stacks.