Gw1 Why it is genius and gw2 just meh.

[Imba.9451]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:People that compare the two don't get it. They aren't even the same kind of game.

Well, to be fair, the whole point of

comparing

two things is two show similarities and differences. You can compare everything to anything, as long as you got the rethorical skills to do so correctly. But when it comes down to GW1 vs GW2 it's not that you can't compare them, but rather the result being 100% down to personal preference.

In this case it doesn't make sense unless the comparison is limited to JUST the storyline.

Depends. You can compare how customizable the characters are, both in cosmetics and in skills/gameplay. And after doing so, your preference will kick in to stick with whatever you like more.Like I said, thats the whole point of a comparision. Of course you can compare apples to oranges. Without comparing them, you wouldn't notice the difference :) I would even go so far as to say the the storyline in itself is the most subjective thing of them all.

[Obtena.7952]

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:People that compare the two don't get it. They aren't even the same kind of game.

Well, to be fair, the whole point of

comparing

two things is two show similarities and differences. You can compare everything to anything, as long as you got the rethorical skills to do so correctly. But when it comes down to GW1 vs GW2 it's not that you can't compare them, but rather the result being 100% down to personal preference.

In this case it doesn't make sense unless the comparison is limited to JUST the storyline.

Depends. You can compare how customizable the characters are, both in cosmetics and in skills/gameplay. And after doing so, your preference will kick in to stick with whatever you like more.Like I said, thats the whole point of a comparision. Of course you can compare apples to oranges. Without comparing them, you wouldn't notice the difference :) I would even go so far as to say the the storyline in itself is the most subjective thing of them all.

In this case, the OP is so vague, it doesn't depend. He's simply saying one is better than the other. That's no basis of comparison at all. I think you should go back and have a look at what he's saying here. If you want to have an objective comparison of dissimilar things, then it's not about how much better one is over the other, it's simply how they are different.

I mean, you're just trolling me here ... in a previous post you even said it was nonsensical to compare the two just like I said ... so what is it?

[Deaths.9165]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:People that compare the two don't get it. They aren't even the same kind of game.

Well, to be fair, the whole point of

comparing

two things is two show similarities and differences. You can compare everything to anything, as long as you got the rethorical skills to do so correctly. But when it comes down to GW1 vs GW2 it's not that you can't compare them, but rather the result being 100% down to personal preference.

In this case it doesn't make sense unless the comparison is limited to JUST the storyline.

Depends. You can compare how customizable the characters are, both in cosmetics and in skills/gameplay. And after doing so, your preference will kick in to stick with whatever you like more.Like I said, thats the whole point of a comparision. Of course you can compare apples to oranges. Without comparing them, you wouldn't notice the difference :) I would even go so far as to say the the storyline in itself is the most subjective thing of them all.

In this case, the OP is so vague, it doesn't depend. He's simply saying one is better than the other. That's no basis of comparison at all. I think you should go back and have a look at what he's saying here. If you want to have an objective comparison of dissimilar things, then it's not about how much better one is over the other, it's simply how they are different.

I mean, you're just trolling me here ... in a previous post you even said it was nonsensical to compare the two just like I said ... so what is it?

That just shows that u havent read everything and are commenting on behalf of ur believe

[Imba.9451]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:People that compare the two don't get it. They aren't even the same kind of game.

Well, to be fair, the whole point of

comparing

two things is two show similarities and differences. You can compare everything to anything, as long as you got the rethorical skills to do so correctly. But when it comes down to GW1 vs GW2 it's not that you can't compare them, but rather the result being 100% down to personal preference.

In this case it doesn't make sense unless the comparison is limited to JUST the storyline.

Depends. You can compare how customizable the characters are, both in cosmetics and in skills/gameplay. And after doing so, your preference will kick in to stick with whatever you like more.Like I said, thats the whole point of a comparision. Of course you can compare apples to oranges. Without comparing them, you wouldn't notice the difference :) I would even go so far as to say the the storyline in itself is the most subjective thing of them all.

In this case, the OP is so vague, it doesn't depend. He's simply saying one is better than the other. That's no basis of comparison at all. I think you should go back and have a look at what he's saying here. If you want to have an objective comparison of dissimilar things, then it's not about how much better one is over the other, it's simply how they are different.

I mean, you're just trolling me here ... in a previous post you even said it was nonsensical to compare the two just like I said ... so what is it?

I am not trolling you. The statement of mine you refer to was aimed towards comparing the sucess of GW1 and GW2. Truth be told, that can easily be misinterpreted unless you followed the whole conversation, so sorry for not making that clearer in regard of this threads topic.

And I fully agree with you on the comparison on dissimilar things part. I simply said you can compare them despite being different genres basically. However, you can only know what to like more by knowing the differences. For example, I prefer the storytelling in GW2 alot more than in GW1. It seemed rather shallow back then, less immersive and the characters have been less interesting IMHO. (Listening to Taimi and Canach alone makes the time spent worth.)But I also prefer to create custom builds in GW1. Coming up with skill synergies was incredibly rewarding, and I do not see this to a similar extend in GW2.

I simply think no product should exist in some kind of safe space. Doesn't validate someone going "A is better cuz B sucks, hurr durr" of course.

Edit: To be honest, OP's choice of words could have been better. The video doesn't describe why GW2 is "meh", but rather what makes GW1 stand out. But it does so pretty well, and spinning the line of thought further I can see where OP is coming from and why he thinks GW2 is "meh", based on what the gameplay design of GW lacks in comparison to GW1. (And also it made me want to play GW1 again. Sweet, sweet nostalgia....)

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@perilisk.1874 said:It's worse in PvE, since there isn't really enough variability in mob behavior to warrant caring, nor do mobs normally have any sense of group tactics beyond the occasional support mob. It's pretty rare, particularly in open-world PvE, to find a situation that doesn't warrant just doing straightforward DPS and using the occasional active defense or heal. Even in situations where there is something to counter, the counters are all very straightforward. Conditions? Use cleanse. Boons? Use strip. Defiance bar? Use CC -- doesn't even really matter which. CC spamming kitten? Use stab or evade it. Rather than synergies and counters being the essence of buildcraft, they just provide a marginal boost in effectiveness. Even enchantment and hex spam in GW1 had more depth, in the sense of ordering the stacks to minimize the impact of removal skills.Everything in GW1 was designed with the idea that a player would always have 3-7 other players (or henchmen, and later heroes) backing them up at all times, and balanced accordingly. GW2, well, isn't.

[Obtena.7952]

@Deaths.9165 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:People that compare the two don't get it. They aren't even the same kind of game.

Well, to be fair, the whole point of

comparing

two things is two show similarities and differences. You can compare everything to anything, as long as you got the rethorical skills to do so correctly. But when it comes down to GW1 vs GW2 it's not that you can't compare them, but rather the result being 100% down to personal preference.

In this case it doesn't make sense unless the comparison is limited to JUST the storyline.

Depends. You can compare how customizable the characters are, both in cosmetics and in skills/gameplay. And after doing so, your preference will kick in to stick with whatever you like more.Like I said, thats the whole point of a comparision. Of course you can compare apples to oranges. Without comparing them, you wouldn't notice the difference :) I would even go so far as to say the the storyline in itself is the most subjective thing of them all.

In this case, the OP is so vague, it doesn't depend. He's simply saying one is better than the other. That's no basis of comparison at all. I think you should go back and have a look at what he's saying here. If you want to have an objective comparison of dissimilar things, then it's not about how much better one is over the other, it's simply how they are different.

I mean, you're just trolling me here ... in a previous post you even said it was nonsensical to compare the two just like I said ... so what is it?

That just shows that u havent read everything and are commenting on behalf of ur believe

What else would I be commenting on? Someone else's beliefs? That makes no sense.

I've read quite a bit, the whole thread in fact, otherwise I wouldn't have picked up on the subtleties of the other fellows comments related to my own. The fact remains that GW2 isn't GW1 ... it was never intended to be, hence the "2". Measuring the success of a single player online game against an MMO is a self-serving argument. They play completely different, they serve a completely different market; they share very little except for part of the name and some lore.

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

[Imba.9451]

@Obtena.7952 said:

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

Arenanet hold the guild wars license. While agreeing, that it won't happen, some people hope that, if enough people make their voices heard, they will develop something like GW1 again. So, yes, it does belong here. And exchange is what a forum is all about. And, as I said earlier, you can compare gameplay aspects of different games - especially if one carries the name of another. The number behind it doesn't mean it's a clean cut, as countless of video game franchises will proove to you.

One could easily twist your argument around and say: If you don't like someone raising his voice for being dissappointed in not being able to experience new GW1-like gameplay, then don't comment on it. But as I said, thats what a forum is about: Exchange. And not telling people what and what not to post.

The upcoming forum chat even implies Arenanet not having forgotten about those that hold GW1 close to their heart.

[Obtena.7952]

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

Arenanet hold the guild wars license. While agreeing, that it won't happen, some people hope that, if enough people make their voices heard, they will develop something like GW1 again. So, yes, it does belong here. And exchange is what a forum is all about. And, as I said earlier, you can compare gameplay aspects of different games - especially if one carries the name of another. The number behind it doesn't mean it's a clean cut, as countless of video game franchises will proove to you.

One could easily twist your argument around and say: If you don't like someone raising his voice for being dissappointed in not being able to experience new GW1-like gameplay, then don't comment on it. But as I said, thats what a forum is about: Exchange. And not telling people what and what not to post.

The upcoming forum chat even implies Arenanet not having forgotten about those that hold GW1 close to their heart.

That's sort of the problem ... why would any reasonable gamer expect that GW2 would be a 'GW1-like gameplay experience'? They shouldn't. It's a COMPLETELY different game ... even fundamentally so.

[Imba.9451]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

Arenanet hold the guild wars license. While agreeing, that it won't happen, some people hope that, if enough people make their voices heard, they will develop something like GW1 again. So, yes, it does belong here. And exchange is what a forum is all about. And, as I said earlier, you can compare gameplay aspects of different games - especially if one carries the name of another. The number behind it doesn't mean it's a clean cut, as countless of video game franchises will proove to you.

One could easily twist your argument around and say: If you don't like someone raising his voice for being dissappointed in not being able to experience new GW1-like gameplay, then don't comment on it. But as I said, thats what a forum is about: Exchange. And not telling people what and what not to post.

The upcoming forum chat even implies Arenanet not having forgotten about those that hold GW1 close to their heart.

That's sort of the problem ... why would any reasonable gamer expect that GW2 would be a 'GW1-like gameplay experience'? They shouldn't. It's a COMPLETELY different game ... even fundamentally so.

I dunno how many people expect GW2 to be GW1-like, as GW2 exists long enough to know what you're buying.But would it be so unreasonable to expect a sequel to be similar to the first game? For example, you buy a soulslike game and you basically know what you get. You buy God of War, you more or less know what you get. The whole concept of a sequel is to give fans more what they like. Or, it should imho, as slapping a well known name on something that fails to capture even the basic spirit of it's predecessor is rather... not so nice.And being fudamentally different is what some people complain about, as there istn't any real substitute for GW1. At least there are no GW1-like games I know of. So the only natural reaction is trying to get your voice heard by those people, who potentially could make it happen. Unlikely? Yes. But completely understandable from my point of view.Or to put it different: When I anticipate a new Souls game, I don't want it to turn out as a Devil May Cry, Kingdom Hearts or Tetris.

[Dante.1763]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

Arenanet hold the guild wars license. While agreeing, that it won't happen, some people hope that, if enough people make their voices heard, they will develop something like GW1 again. So, yes, it does belong here. And exchange is what a forum is all about. And, as I said earlier, you can compare gameplay aspects of different games - especially if one carries the name of another. The number behind it doesn't mean it's a clean cut, as countless of video game franchises will proove to you.

One could easily twist your argument around and say: If you don't like someone raising his voice for being dissappointed in not being able to experience new GW1-like gameplay, then don't comment on it. But as I said, thats what a forum is about: Exchange. And not telling people what and what not to post.

The upcoming forum chat even implies Arenanet not having forgotten about those that hold GW1 close to their heart.

That's sort of the problem ... why would any reasonable gamer expect that GW2 would be a 'GW1-like gameplay experience'? They shouldn't. It's a COMPLETELY different game ... even fundamentally so.

(agreeing with you here). Even their first couple videos say that GW2 is going to be different from GW1.

[Dravyn.4671]

Personally I think GW1 was a much better game, for it's time. Its too outdated now.

[Obtena.7952]

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

Arenanet hold the guild wars license. While agreeing, that it won't happen, some people hope that, if enough people make their voices heard, they will develop something like GW1 again. So, yes, it does belong here. And exchange is what a forum is all about. And, as I said earlier, you can compare gameplay aspects of different games - especially if one carries the name of another. The number behind it doesn't mean it's a clean cut, as countless of video game franchises will proove to you.

One could easily twist your argument around and say: If you don't like someone raising his voice for being dissappointed in not being able to experience new GW1-like gameplay, then don't comment on it. But as I said, thats what a forum is about: Exchange. And not telling people what and what not to post.

The upcoming forum chat even implies Arenanet not having forgotten about those that hold GW1 close to their heart.

That's sort of the problem ... why would any reasonable gamer expect that GW2 would be a 'GW1-like gameplay experience'? They shouldn't. It's a COMPLETELY different game ... even fundamentally so.

I dunno how many people expect GW2 to be GW1-like, as GW2 exists long enough to know what you're buying.

I do .. it should be zero. Even when the game was released we were warned. Thus, the complaints and the comparisons don't sound to be founded on good logic right off the hop.

[Ashen.2907]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

Arenanet hold the guild wars license. While agreeing, that it won't happen, some people hope that, if enough people make their voices heard, they will develop something like GW1 again. So, yes, it does belong here. And exchange is what a forum is all about. And, as I said earlier, you can compare gameplay aspects of different games - especially if one carries the name of another. The number behind it doesn't mean it's a clean cut, as countless of video game franchises will proove to you.

One could easily twist your argument around and say: If you don't like someone raising his voice for being dissappointed in not being able to experience new GW1-like gameplay, then don't comment on it. But as I said, thats what a forum is about: Exchange. And not telling people what and what not to post.

The upcoming forum chat even implies Arenanet not having forgotten about those that hold GW1 close to their heart.

That's sort of the problem ... why would any reasonable gamer expect that GW2 would be a 'GW1-like gameplay experience'? They shouldn't. It's a COMPLETELY different game ... even fundamentally so.

Anet advertised GW2 to GW1 players in that way.

But this point is past its prime. It is far too late to change the game as radically as would be necessary.

[Imba.9451]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Imba.9451 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

I GET you like GW1 more, but that's not a definitive, objective assessment of what the differences between GW1 and GW2 are and really doesn't have a place in this forum to begin with. Frankly, your opinion has little relevance if you're going to compare such dissimilar games ... and other people have said as much as well. The only thing I can say is that if you don't like the kind of game GW2 delivers to you, there isn't a point in complaining about it ... go play one you do like. There really isn't any purpose to the thread.

Arenanet hold the guild wars license. While agreeing, that it won't happen, some people hope that, if enough people make their voices heard, they will develop something like GW1 again. So, yes, it does belong here. And exchange is what a forum is all about. And, as I said earlier, you can compare gameplay aspects of different games - especially if one carries the name of another. The number behind it doesn't mean it's a clean cut, as countless of video game franchises will proove to you.

One could easily twist your argument around and say: If you don't like someone raising his voice for being dissappointed in not being able to experience new GW1-like gameplay, then don't comment on it. But as I said, thats what a forum is about: Exchange. And not telling people what and what not to post.

The upcoming forum chat even implies Arenanet not having forgotten about those that hold GW1 close to their heart.

That's sort of the problem ... why would any reasonable gamer expect that GW2 would be a 'GW1-like gameplay experience'? They shouldn't. It's a COMPLETELY different game ... even fundamentally so.

I dunno how many people expect GW2 to be GW1-like, as GW2 exists long enough to know what you're buying.

I do .. it should be zero. Even when the game was released we were warned. Thus, the complaints and the comparisons don't sound to be founded on good logic right off the hop.

Well, to be fair noone here expects GW2 to be GW1. We are beyond that now. But some people, including me, simply wish for something like GW1 to arise again. Thats a whole different thing, and no marketing, no warning how different something will be will change that. And to be honest, I don't see a problem with it. Let people try to be heard. It's not like they are going to take your fun away, as GW2 is GW2 and will never be changed anyway.

[Solori.6025]

Honestly, People that are in favor of GW1 would be better trying to make them turn it into a mobile game for continued development. Otherwise, why waste the effort? GW2 has made more money than GW1 twice over soooo, why would you hold out hope that they would use resources on a dated game?

[Obtena.7952]

@Solori.6025 said:Honestly, People that are in favor of GW1 would be better trying to make them turn it into a mobile game for continued development. Otherwise, why waste the effort? GW2 has made more money than GW1 twice over soooo, why would you hold out hope that they would use resources on a dated game?

Or why would anyone who wants to have a GW1-like game try to do so by crapping on GW2? If the goal is for someone to profess their love of GW1 ... expressing their dissatisfaction with GW2 to do it is a REALLY illogical way to do so.

[Imba.9451]

@"Solori.6025" said:Honestly, People that are in favor of GW1 would be better trying to make them turn it into a mobile game for continued development. Otherwise, why waste the effort? GW2 has made more money than GW1 twice over soooo, why would you hold out hope that they would use resources on a dated game?

Dunno if that would hold true today. Today we have Microtransaction, wich GW1 discovered during the end of its lifecycle. I dare to argue that part OF GW2's financial sucess was not only because a more "casual" game design, but also because of new ways to monetize things.

@"Solori.6025" said:

Or why would anyone who wants to have a GW1-like game try to do so by crapping on GW2? If the goal is for someone to profess their love of GW1 ... expressing their dissatisfaction with GW2 to do it is a REALLY illogical way to do so.

Eh, thats just how the internet works. "STOP HAVING FUN WITH STUFF I DO NOT ENJOY!" is a pretty common stereotype, wich gets discussion heated pretty quickly and makes focus on the real topic being lost along the way. Been guilty of this myself, mea culpa. Then again, probably everyone was at some point.

[needbeer.1687]

theres a few reasons gw1 is far better. for starters they actually cared about the game and didnt treat it as a money grab as gw2 seems to be. story was far better. weapons more original.almost anything could be traded. the only soulbound things was armor and weapons if you paid the gold for it.a nearly true and free open market.multiclassing was such a fun thing to do.we all remember those necro/mesmer builds.the system relied on actual skill and people being innovative instead of gw2 button smashing. the list goes on.

[Panties Of DOom.3891]

Guild wars 1 will always be the best.

[Gemnaid.4219]

Because gw2 threw out all their values for money. Like all greedy people in life.

[GwAddict.9746]

GW2 is far better and is an actual MMORPG unlike GW1 which was completely instanced except outposts and cities. Movement was extremely limited and combat was meh with the usual tab-targetting stuff. Atleast I can use action camera in GW2.

Another thing which many people forget is that the GW1 business model isn't sustainable in the long run. It was literally buy and forget after unless you want to buy character slots/bank tabs and that bonus mission pack. A company running in loss will eventually close down.

In addition to the above, the engine was outdated back then (much less now) and heavily limited the game from progressing. I remember the GW1 devs saying something along the lines of trying to implement dynamic events but couldn't do it due to the limitations. So no wonder thet worked on something better.

[Ashen.2907]

@GwAddict.9746 said:GW2 is far better and is an actual MMORPG unlike GW1 which was completely instanced except outposts and cities. Movement was extremely limited and combat was meh with the usual tab-targetting stuff. Atleast I can use action camera in GW2.

Another thing which many people forget is that the GW1 business model isn't sustainable in the long run. It was literally buy and forget after unless you want to buy character slots/bank tabs and that bonus mission pack. A company running in loss will eventually close down.

In addition to the above, the engine was outdated back then (much less now) and heavily limited the game from progressing. I remember the GW1 devs saying something along the lines of trying to implement dynamic events but couldn't do it due to the limitations. So no wonder thet worked on something better.

Are you sure that Anet was operating at a loss during the GW1 era?

If GW1 was a money losing prospect I wonder how Anet convinced NCSoft to fund GW2 development for 5 years.

[Vayne.8563]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:GW1 got build templates in 2 years. GW2 still waiting, 6 years and counting...

Guild Wars 2 had a trading post at launch, Guild Wars 1? 13 years later, still counting.

[Sylent.3165]

Even though I've played gw2 many hours longer I must admit gw1 was much better overall. If they added jumping and updated maps to allow it and be useful, kept updating the game often, and reworked combat a bit like attacking while moving possibly I truly think they could have had a successful game.

Or better yet just made gw2 guild wars but updated.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:GW1 got build templates in 2 years. GW2 still waiting, 6 years and counting...

Guild Wars 2 had a trading post at launch, Guild Wars 1? 13 years later, still counting.

It's natural that GW2 has features that GW1 doesn't - it's called progression. Why then GW2 regressed in terms of features like build templates is a mystery yet to be solved.