Are we gonna talk about Mirage?

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I like to use my numerous mirage evades on warriors of any caliber that light themselves on fire for round 2, it's fun to dangle carrots in their faces as they burn.

Does this make me sadistic? Probably, but that's not the point. The point is, I have to spec to get those evades, whereas a warrior regardless of elites, regardless of traitng or utility slotting has a down skill that can and always has been able to change the outcome of any fight they are in. So if standard issue skills aren't considered OP, then my traited and slotted skills shouldn't be either.

[BlueMelody.6398]

@HazyDaisy.4107 said:I like to use my numerous mirage evades on warriors of any caliber that light themselves on fire for round 2, it's fun to dangle carrots in their faces as they burn.

Does this make me sadistic? Probably, but that's not the point. The point is, I have to spec to get those evades, whereas a warrior regardless of elites, regardless of traitng or utility slotting has a down skill that can and always has been able to change the outcome of any fight they are in. So if standard issue skills aren't considered OP, then my traited and slotted skills shouldn't be either.

Nonsense and stuffs. Warrior downed skills are inferior to many, including necro. Can't tp, can't siphon, can't disappear, knockdown is no better than what half the other classes have.

[Daishi.6027]

The worst part is even the mini pet gets mirage mirror! So imba.

[Abelisk.4527]

You're not supposed to attack Mirages. They're just... mirages... hallucinations. When you attack a mirage, you're attacking yourself, which is why you can never win versus a mirage (yourself).

[Rysdude.3824]

@EvilSardine.9635 said:This is insane. I just came back to the game and saw countless mirage builds running around and I swore there had to be some sort of bug or exploit due to how broken it seemed.

I made a mirage and was blown away that this is even in the game. What on earth was Anet thinking? Do they not play their game? The amount of clone spam and condis being thrown around during a fight is crazy. The escapes I had were absurd and I was untouchable. It was honestly silly how effective I was with such minimal effort even being new to the spec/class.

Any word if this is going to get balanced? Don't even get me started on condi mirage either.....that's just some sort of April fools joke that hasn't been patched out yet.

I completely agree with you OP. I started GW2 as a mesmer because of the uniqueness of the class. But when I started WvW, I noticed how OP it was as well. I stopped playing my mirage in WvW as I refuse to be that cancerous. If I come across a mirage while roaming, I leave. Dont bother with them at.

[Daishi.6027]

I can kill Mirage with Sword+Pistol/Staff DD not that hard.

Everyone is like "OP this, OP that" but I just let them waste cooldowns and then attack, sometimes through walls which is something mirages can't ignore.

Condi might be a bit strong, but power shatters have a lot less cooldowns you need to actively play around and it's not exactly hard to doge.

If in WvW and a guy has double energy sigils and adventure runes it'll be annoying, but if anything that is even more reason for WvW to use PvP stats.

[DaShi.1368]

If you rely a lot on single target skills, you'll have a harder time against mirage. Rangers, PP thieves, revenants, and LB DHs all have trouble because once they lose the target, they can't do a lot. This is also why you see them complaining the most. Any other classes, esp. spellbreaker, should be able defeat mirages fairly consistently.

[Carighan.6758]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Since PoF release I've met two mirages I can really remember as a major threat to the point I just couldnt beat them one on one. That's just barely matched by the amount of good sword/sword revs I've met.

Was about to say, Mirage is a rather sad spec because of how ill-designed it is. It's alright in damage output ,but really not a serious threat, neither in PvE for the actual damage dealers, nor in PvP.

(edit: Also, erm, PvP "imbalance"? The game has far bigger issues than worrying about smallscale PvP, sorry. There's inherent design flaws in a lot of classes and specs, which would naturally, when resolved, entirely upheave the balance anyhow. PvP is just a sidedish at this point.)

[Skada.1362]

Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@"Skada.1362" said:Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

Nobody is disagreeing with you, it's just that the people complaining loudest about it would rather it be gutted than have any semblance of reason if it gets nerfed whereas people here would like it to be nuanced and for Elusive Mind to actually get addressed since it was pointed out as a problem almost an entire year ago.

[Skada.1362]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@"Skada.1362" said:Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

Nobody is disagreeing with you, it's just that the people complaining loudest about it would rather it be gutted than have any semblance of reason if it gets nerfed whereas people here would like it to be nuanced and for Elusive Mind to actually get addressed since it was pointed out as a problem almost an entire year ago.

If changes are made, they have to be fair so that the game becomes healthier for all parties. I'm not one to call for "revenge nerfs". I only wish Anet would patch things more often so their game wouldn't have these kinds of issues.

[Rysdude.3824]

@Skada.1362 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Skada.1362 said:Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

Nobody is disagreeing with you, it's just that the people complaining loudest about it would rather it be gutted than have any semblance of reason if it gets nerfed whereas people here would like it to be nuanced and for Elusive Mind to actually get addressed since it was pointed out as a problem almost an entire year ago.

If changes are made, they have to be fair so that the game becomes healthier for all parties. I'm not one to call for "revenge nerfs". I only wish Anet would patch things more often so their game wouldn't have these kinds of issues.

I would agree with that also. I know their cadence, but there’d be less QQing on the forums if these kinds of things were addressed sooner.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Skada.1362 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Skada.1362 said:Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

Nobody is disagreeing with you, it's just that the people complaining loudest about it would rather it be gutted than have any semblance of reason if it gets nerfed whereas people here would like it to be nuanced and for Elusive Mind to actually get addressed since it was pointed out as a problem almost an entire year ago.

If changes are made, they have to be fair so that the game becomes healthier for all parties. I'm not one to call for "revenge nerfs". I only wish Anet would patch things more often so their game wouldn't have these kinds of issues.

Agreed, although incoherent screeching seems to be a popular tactic and works to an extent seeing as iWarlock got nerfed for no particular reason.

[Simonoly.4352]

Elusive Mind probably still needs a redesign. Possibly Desert Distortion could do with a change too. Also staff clone ambush condition application should be halved.

I'm don't think any other reasonable nerfs are required. Complaints about Mirage Cloak itself are a learn to play issue. I don't mean that in the crass "L2P" way - genuinely a lot of people don't know how to adjust their playstyle to combat Mirage. You simply can't do your usual skill rotation against a vigilant Mirage and expect it to work because of Mirage Cloak. Shield Bash into Eviscerate? Hello 2012! Yeah no that just won't work against a Mirage unless they're asleep. Do something else. Mirage is adept at undermining predictable play and no amount of nerfs will change that. Don't be predictable.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Simonoly.4352" said:Elusive Mind probably still needs a redesign. Possibly Desert Distortion could do with a change too. Also staff clone ambush condition application should be halved.

I'm don't think any other reasonable nerfs are required. Complaints about Mirage Cloak itself are a learn to play issue. I don't mean that in the crass "L2P" way - genuinely a lot of people don't know how to adjust their playstyle to combat Mirage. You simply can't do your usual skill rotation against a vigilant Mirage and expect it to work because of Mirage Cloak. Shield Bash into Eviscerate? Hello 2012! Yeah no that just won't work against a Mirage unless they're asleep. Do something else. Mirage is adept at undermining predictable play and no amount of nerfs will change that. Don't be predictable.

I disagree on staff. I don't think the condi pressure is very strong with staff as it is. Any less and you would apply so little pressure enemies with decent cleansing could effectively ignore you until you swap to a stronger weapon.

[apharma.3741]

@"Daishi.6027" said:I can kill Mirage with Sword+Pistol/Staff DD not that hard.

Everyone is like "OP this, OP that" but I just let them waste cooldowns and then attack, sometimes through walls which is something mirages can't ignore.

Condi might be a bit strong, but power shatters have a lot less cooldowns you need to actively play around and it's not exactly hard to doge.

If in WvW and a guy has double energy sigils and adventure runes it'll be annoying, but if anything that is even more reason for WvW to use PvP stats.

Well it also helps that ecto is probably the most broken skill in the game too, if you get double or even quadruple ecto it’s essentially permenant protections, regen, vigor, fury and swiftness with stab, retal, aegis, alacrity and resistance in varying amounts depending on how many ecto you get all tied to an instant cast 1200 range skill.

However yes power shatter is a lot easier to fight (though it can 1 shot you usually) especially if you know the way to fight mesmer, also known as the “keep teleporting behind them” strat. Condi is not fun and there’s certain builds with chaos you won’t ever kill before they run and reset.

I certainly think a lot of the complaints are misplaced, people including an ex ESL player are complaining about torch. I get what they’re saying, it can spike burns really high really fast but it has literally a 2-3s telegraph on both skills and regardless of whether you get hit with it now or a toned down (lower stacks but longer duration) version you would still do the same thing, cleanse it all immediately. It’s the torment and confusion that kills people not the burning which shouldn’t hit most players.

[Simonoly.4352]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I disagree on staff. I don't think the condi pressure is very strong with staff as it is. Any less and you would apply so little pressure enemies with decent cleansing could effectively ignore you until you swap to a stronger weapon.

That's a fair point actually, I agree. Also, the ambush has quite a big wind-up on clones and it's only a single stack of the three conditions it applies.

[EvilSardine.9635]

@Skada.1362 said:

You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

This is exactly my issue. Zero risk with big rewards. It's insane that something like this still exists in the game. It's hands down the best spec. Completely untouchable if you're comfortable with the class.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Scud.5067 said:

@"Belishine.7493" said:i was maining mes for like 3 years so it was a fun class untill the last update to mes. befor the update for mes you need to be skilled with mes to pull stuff off and be a high threat. now its like puting god mode on and saying come get me and you can kill 5 players with one shater its just not fun any more for wvw or pvp content. they realy need to fix mes to a more skilled playstyle so its more properly balanced and more ingaging compared to doing gs 4 2 and f1 and seeing everything in like 2 sec.

Yeah I retired mine. It was making me better - if anything it was leading to poor habits.

This is why I never want my main ( Rev ) to be OP. I'd like a few QoL changes like cleansing channel to 2 conditions to keep up with the condi-stack power creep, but I don't want its damage buffed at all - if anything it could even use a slight nerf to a couple damage skills in exchange for the better utility.

Having a class be broken leads to "noobification". You get used to be able to just randomly use rotations on people and kill them without actually paying any attention to what is going on around you. Before you know it, you are a literal bronze player in terms of skill because without realizing it you actually stopped putting in any effort and need to keep playing your broken class to stay afloat.

The fact is, if you are platinum in sPvP with insert FOTM busted SSS+ spec here, but immediately fall to silver II when you switch and play another less-busted class, guess what? You're a silver II player. The people playing trained-monkey builds right now are mostly terrible and can often be beaten by totally off-meta specs like hammer rene purely through outplaying them since the majority just 12345 99% of the time. If I had a gem for every time a scourge tried to hit me with all their sand shade abilities while I was using https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unrelenting_Assault on them, I could convert my gems to gold and buy an Eternity.

[Dawdler.8521]

@EvilSardine.9635 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

This is exactly my issue. Zero risk with big rewards. It's insane that something like this still exists in the game. It's hands down the best spec. Completely untouchable if you're comfortable with the class.

If its zero risk with big rewards, why isnt everyone on a mesmer? No really, I want to know. I want to know why on earth people would choose not to play mesmer then.

Try counting the different classes you meet (no repeats for the same player). If they arent all mesmers - the zero risk big reward class - then we only have two logical conclusions:

1) Its really not zero risk with big reward, thats why people choose other classes.

2) People cant play them? But thats impossible by definition - its supposed to be a zero risk class. Everyone can play it with zero risk.

Has anyone done this sanity check and has the percentages on whats roaming out there?

If its anything but 100% mesmers I will be shocked, shocked I say!!!

[Curunen.8729]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@EvilSardine.9635 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

This is exactly my issue. Zero risk with big rewards. It's insane that something like this still exists in the game. It's hands down the best spec. Completely untouchable if you're comfortable with the class.

If its zero risk with big rewards, why isnt

everyone

on a mesmer? No really, I want to know. I want to know why on earth people would choose not to play mesmer then.

Try counting the different classes you meet (no repeats for the same player). If they arent

all

mesmers - the zero risk big reward class - then we only have two logical conclusions:

1) Its really not zero risk with big reward, thats why people choose other classes.

2) People cant play them? But thats impossible by definition - its supposed to be a zero risk class. Everyone can play it with zero risk.

Has anyone done this sanity check and has the percentages on whats roaming out there?

If its anything but 100% mesmers I will be shocked, shocked I say!!!

I see more rangers than anything else tbh - and a good mix between soulbeast, druid and core. I'd hazard a guess they're most prevalent in wvw small scale. Also a lot of warriors, engis, thieves, eles and guardians.

Slightly fewer scourges than before, slightly more reapers but overall still a good number of necros.

Also most mesmers I see are the usual power shatter mirage. Seems more rare to run into condi, especially condi that uses axe as the ones who do still mostly have sword and staff.

Even heralds there are a good number of them out there (yes renegade does need more improvements).

[Scar.1793]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@EvilSardine.9635 said:This is insane. I just came back to the game and saw countless mirage builds running around and I swore there had to be some sort of bug or exploit due to how broken it seemed.

I made a mirage and was blown away that this is even in the game. What on earth was Anet thinking? Do they not play their game? The amount of clone spam and condis being thrown around during a fight is crazy. The escapes I had were absurd and I was untouchable. It was honestly silly how effective I was with such minimal effort even being new to the spec/class.

Any word if this is going to get balanced? Don't even get me started on condi mirage either.....that's just some sort of April fools joke that hasn't been patched out yet.

This mainly a game to leech from bad design to farm titles, Anet wont nerf or fix until theres a ton of complains about some design that was ment to carry most players.Gw2 was never a good game to (serious pvp players)pvp, and hardly will be.

That’s true, kinda forced to grind Wvxp for the Warbringer and I met some mirages, it’s funny to see how they just faceroll through enemies. Evades, Iframes, stealth, crazy burst, crazy mobility. For other classes it’s usually 50/50 on my s/s rev. Some of them are actually really fun and interesting.

Once I’m done grinding I don’t think I’ll go back to wvw. It’s the same classes and bs over and over. GW2 pvp just suck compared to skill-based games

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Scar.1793 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"EvilSardine.9635" said:This is insane. I just came back to the game and saw countless mirage builds running around and I swore there had to be some sort of bug or exploit due to how broken it seemed.

I made a mirage and was blown away that this is even in the game. What on earth was Anet thinking? Do they not play their game? The amount of clone spam and condis being thrown around during a fight is crazy. The escapes I had were absurd and I was untouchable. It was honestly silly how effective I was with such minimal effort even being new to the spec/class.

Any word if this is going to get balanced? Don't even get me started on condi mirage either.....that's just some sort of April fools joke that hasn't been patched out yet.

This mainly a game to leech from bad design to farm titles, Anet wont nerf or fix until theres a ton of complains about some design that was ment to carry most players.Gw2 was never a good game to (serious pvp players)pvp, and hardly will be.

That’s true, kinda forced to grind Wvxp for the Warbringer and I met some mirages, it’s funny to see how they just faceroll through enemies. Evades, Iframes, stealth, crazy burst, crazy mobility. For other classes it’s usually 50/50 on my s/s rev. Some of them are actually really fun and interesting.

Once I’m done grinding I don’t think I’ll go back to wvw. It’s the same classes and bs over and over. GW2 pvp just suck compared to skill-based games

Yeah i just use my massive aoe skills i got on Mirrage.Im full power AND condi , but i got 110% evade uptime so i can't be hurt at all.I dont got inspiration traited and i got 0 healing power, cause rngesus sends me 2k HP with every shatter - dont ask me how.

Now on the serious note.As a condi mirage my only "death sentence" is hitting 3 - clone - axe 3 into F2. If my enemy has a brain - he cleans the confusion and the fight could potentially go for ever. I can't kill anyone without a Confu bomb, and they can't kill me unless they get a sneaky +1.

Can i "faceroll" through other groups ?No - If i want to engage a group with at least 2 more people then me , i gotta think seriously.If i engage - will i Win?Hell no i could be happy if i kill one or at least if i survive.

Are people stupid who auto attack the air while havin 20 stacks confu on em ?yes lol

[Dawdler.8521]

@"FaboBabo.3581" said:As a condi mirage my only "death sentence" is hitting 3 - clone - axe 3 into F2.

The only condi mirage "death sentence" I got in the last month was when I got bombed and moad. Couldnt exactly do anything.

Dying to a vanilla mesmer skill, thats just not possible! Its mirage thats broken! And I was a mirage running with jaunt instead, must be way behind the curve since even idiots mirages are immortal.

[Aeolus.3615]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@Scar.1793 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"EvilSardine.9635" said:This is insane. I just came back to the game and saw countless mirage builds running around and I swore there had to be some sort of bug or exploit due to how broken it seemed.

I made a mirage and was blown away that this is even in the game. What on earth was Anet thinking? Do they not play their game? The amount of clone spam and condis being thrown around during a fight is crazy. The escapes I had were absurd and I was untouchable. It was honestly silly how effective I was with such minimal effort even being new to the spec/class.

Any word if this is going to get balanced? Don't even get me started on condi mirage either.....that's just some sort of April fools joke that hasn't been patched out yet.

This mainly a game to leech from bad design to farm titles, Anet wont nerf or fix until theres a ton of complains about some design that was ment to carry most players.Gw2 was never a good game to (serious pvp players)pvp, and hardly will be.

That’s true, kinda forced to grind Wvxp for the Warbringer and I met some mirages, it’s funny to see how they just faceroll through enemies. Evades, Iframes, stealth, crazy burst, crazy mobility. For other classes it’s usually 50/50 on my s/s rev. Some of them are actually really fun and interesting.

Once I’m done grinding I don’t think I’ll go back to wvw. It’s the same classes and bs over and over. GW2 pvp just suck compared to skill-based games

Yeah i just use my massive aoe skills i got on Mirrage.Im full power AND condi , but i got 110% evade uptime so i can't be hurt at all.I dont got inspiration traited and i got 0 healing power, cause rngesus sends me 2k HP with every shatter - dont ask me how.

Now on the serious note.As a condi mirage my only "death sentence" is hitting 3 - clone - axe 3 into F2. If my enemy has a brain - he cleans the confusion and the fight could potentially go for ever. I can't kill anyone without a Confu bomb, and they can't kill me unless they get a sneaky +1.

Can i "faceroll" through other groups ?No - If i want to engage a group with at least 2 more people then me , i gotta think seriously.If i engage - will i Win?Hell no i could be happy if i kill one or at least if i survive.

Are people stupid who auto attack the air while havin 20 stacks confu on em ?yes lol

For some reason i still find "Brokensmith" harder to deal than most mesmers :scream: in wvw is worse than spvp tho.Condi mesmers builds are way to lower risk with a decent high reward.

I think any build that is built to improve offensive by damage output, being power or condi/spam need less defense, Anet made condi bunker stats wich m8 be the real culprit for some build to be easier to steamroll than others.