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Are we gonna talk about Mirage?


EvilSardine.9635

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@FaboBabo.3581 said:

I skipped over Staff Mastery and MH Dagger AA chain because they're exclusive to specific builds and conditions being met. I also ignored weapon skill use as again it's conditional and depends on a few factors as far as the thief's effective cooldowns based on initiative recovery and the weapon skills it's using, as well as whether or not FF is traited for a mirage running dueling. Thief weapon skill dodges outside of S/D also generally have some vulnerability frames as part of their casts so it becomes hard to qualify (and even quantify) evasion. The base dodge gives a full set of evade frames and outside of prior counterplay like immob or stun, can't really be negated.

Endurance Regeneration effects, especially on steal, are shaky; if steal is used as an engage tool, the endurance is effectively never received.

In the case of Mirage with the food:Endurance Regen from vigor and food -> +90% = one new dodge every 5.26s at 1s duration dodge = 1/5.26 = 19.0% uptime

With Daredevil with food:40% regen rate, or 7.15s between dodges at .75s = 10.5% uptime+1 dodge from CV cast @20s cd = 3.75% uptime+1 dodge from SoA @30s = 2.5% uptime= 16.25% uptime.

So if we totally max out evasion without accounting for spamming skills on staff, Daredevil does pull slightly ahead mandating two traitlines and no steal-on-engage assuming BT and Trickery traited and no-engage steal use for CV and PS:10.5 +CV: .75/16 = 4.7 % uptime + 22% from +10 Endurance = 5.7% uptimeSoA: .75/30 = 2.5% uptimePS: .75/20 = 3.75% uptime= 22.45%

PS really becomes the deciding factor. If steal is used for an engage (which is almost always is), mirage has more dodge uptime than Daredevil, even when traited for it and while burning utilities and heals.

so DD has no Vigor?

DD has vigor on steal if they trait for it. Other than that it's the meta Sw/D base thief build which will cap endurance regen from vigor and food.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:I think it's hard to value weapon-skill evasion on thief and things liked Blurred Frenzy and Distortion. Like D/P gets no extra evasion and staff isn't considered that good on thief right now. Kind of like trying to compare OH pistol thief to OH sword on mesmer.

I dont really think its hard to value them at all. Mesmer has a little more pure endurance perhaps, but then again I've seen thieves fight effectivly using only
one
weapon skill and
one
trait and be incredibly hard to hit due to constantly stealthing and dodging. Just steal in, hit once, smoke field, dodge. Thief is gone. Then they will backstab once, smokefield, dodge. Thief is gone. Backstab once, smokefield, dodge. Repeat for like 80% stealth uptime in the fight.

A mesmer cant even come close to that kind of evasion.

I mean that entire tactic is reserved entirely to D/P and the stealth is maintained solely because of Heartseeker, as the endurance regen from Bound is not enough to maintain stealth. It's also two weapon skills, and stealth has little to do with evasion. A thief that's in stealth is still hittable by cleave and anything with action camera, including targeted ranged attacks so it's not fair to say that the stealth uptime immediately implies damage avoidance, either, which is why I refrained from using weapon skills in my math above.

@Solori.6025 said:

I skipped over Staff Mastery and MH Dagger AA chain because they're exclusive to specific builds and conditions being met. I also ignored weapon skill use as again it's conditional and depends on a few factors as far as the thief's effective cooldowns based on initiative recovery and the weapon skills it's using, as well as whether or not FF is traited for a mirage running dueling. Thief weapon skill dodges outside of S/D also generally have some vulnerability frames as part of their casts so it becomes hard to qualify (and even quantify) evasion. The base dodge gives a full set of evade frames and outside of prior counterplay like immob or stun, can't really be negated.

Endurance Regeneration effects, especially on steal, are shaky; if steal is used as an engage tool, the endurance is effectively never received.

In the case of Mirage with the food:Endurance Regen from vigor and food -> +90% = one new dodge every 5.26s at 1s duration dodge = 1/5.26 = 19.0% uptime

With Daredevil with food:40% regen rate, or 7.15s between dodges at .75s = 10.5% uptime+1 dodge from CV cast @20s cd = 3.75% uptime+1 dodge from SoA @30s = 2.5% uptime= 16.25% uptime.

So if we totally max out evasion without accounting for spamming skills on staff, Daredevil does pull slightly ahead mandating two traitlines and no steal-on-engage assuming BT and Trickery traited and no-engage steal use for CV and PS:10.5 +CV: .75/16 = 4.7 % uptime + 22% from +10 Endurance = 5.7% uptimeSoA: .75/30 = 2.5% uptimePS: .75/20 = 3.75% uptime= 22.45%

PS really becomes the deciding factor. If steal is used for an engage (which is almost always is), mirage has more dodge uptime than Daredevil, even when traited for it and while burning utilities and heals.

so DD has no Vigor?

DD has vigor on steal if they trait for it. Other than that it's the meta Sw/D base thief build which will cap endurance regen from vigor and food.

Daredevil does not have access to Vigor innately, and there is no Vigor-on-steal trait in the game. All sources of vigor on the thief are exclusively limited to the Acrobatics traitline, limited to Vigorous Recovery (Vigor on Heal which is generally not seen as a good trait compared to IR or PR) and Feline Grace, which is Vigor upon evading an attack.

I also did mess up my math above; PS does nothing for Endurance on Steal - I meant Endurance Thief (ET), and the endurance I attributed to Endurance on steal was halfed to 25, making it a 1.88% uptime, or a maximum of 20.57% which is lower than what I calculated.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:I think it's hard to value weapon-skill evasion on thief and things liked Blurred Frenzy and Distortion. Like D/P gets no extra evasion and staff isn't considered that good on thief right now. Kind of like trying to compare OH pistol thief to OH sword on mesmer.

I dont really think its hard to value them at all. Mesmer has a little more pure endurance perhaps, but then again I've seen thieves fight effectivly using only
one
weapon skill and
one
trait and be incredibly hard to hit due to constantly stealthing and dodging. Just steal in, hit once, smoke field, dodge. Thief is gone. Then they will backstab once, smokefield, dodge. Thief is gone. Backstab once, smokefield, dodge. Repeat for like 80% stealth uptime in the fight.

A mesmer cant even come close to that kind of evasion.

I mean that entire tactic is reserved entirely to D/P and the stealth is maintained solely because of Heartseeker, as the endurance regen from Bound is not enough to maintain stealth. It's also two weapon skills, and stealth has little to do with evasion. A thief that's in stealth is still hittable by cleave and anything with action camera, including targeted ranged attacks so it's not fair to say that the stealth uptime immediately implies damage avoidance, either, which is why I refrained from using weapon skills in my math above.

I skipped over Staff Mastery and MH Dagger AA chain because they're exclusive to specific builds and conditions being met. I also ignored weapon skill use as again it's conditional and depends on a few factors as far as the thief's effective cooldowns based on initiative recovery and the weapon skills it's using, as well as whether or not FF is traited for a mirage running dueling. Thief weapon skill dodges outside of S/D also generally have some vulnerability frames as part of their casts so it becomes hard to qualify (and even quantify) evasion. The base dodge gives a full set of evade frames and outside of prior counterplay like immob or stun, can't really be negated.

Endurance Regeneration effects, especially on steal, are shaky; if steal is used as an engage tool, the endurance is effectively never received.

In the case of Mirage with the food:Endurance Regen from vigor and food -> +90% = one new dodge every 5.26s at 1s duration dodge = 1/5.26 = 19.0% uptime

With Daredevil with food:40% regen rate, or 7.15s between dodges at .75s = 10.5% uptime+1 dodge from CV cast @20s cd = 3.75% uptime+1 dodge from SoA @30s = 2.5% uptime= 16.25% uptime.

So if we totally max out evasion without accounting for spamming skills on staff, Daredevil does pull slightly ahead mandating two traitlines and no steal-on-engage assuming BT and Trickery traited and no-engage steal use for CV and PS:10.5 +CV: .75/16 = 4.7 % uptime + 22% from +10 Endurance = 5.7% uptimeSoA: .75/30 = 2.5% uptimePS: .75/20 = 3.75% uptime= 22.45%

PS really becomes the deciding factor. If steal is used for an engage (which is almost always is), mirage has more dodge uptime than Daredevil, even when traited for it and while burning utilities and heals.

so DD has no Vigor?

DD has vigor on steal if they trait for it. Other than that it's the meta Sw/D base thief build which will cap endurance regen from vigor and food.

Daredevil does not have access to Vigor innately, and there is no Vigor-on-steal trait in the game. All sources of vigor on the thief are exclusively limited to the Acrobatics traitline, limited to Vigorous Recovery (Vigor on Heal which is generally not seen as a good trait compared to IR or PR) and Feline Grace, which is Vigor upon evading an attack.

I also did mess up my math above; PS does nothing for Endurance on Steal - I meant Endurance Thief (ET), and the endurance I attributed to Endurance on steal was halfed to 25, making it a 1.88% uptime, or a maximum of 20.57% which is lower than what I calculated.

"AND THER IS NO VIGOR ON STEAL TRAIT""AND THER IS NO VIGOR ON STEAL TRAIT""AND THER IS NO VIGOR ON STEAL TRAIT""AND THER IS NO VIGOR ON STEAL TRAIT""AND THER IS NO VIGOR ON STEAL TRAIT"DAFUQ?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:It's also two weapon skills

Uhm no its not. Pistol 5, dodge.

Did you forget bound is a leap finisher? They dont need to use dagger 2 for it (the points are spent toward the next smoke/dodge combo). I dint count the autoattack as a weapon skill since it cost nothing.

Also combine it with possibilities like +50% speed while in stealth and the blinds from the smoke field.

None of it even take into account vigor, which the thief can get perma by evading attacks using acrobatics for examples.

So worst case scenario, the dd are as bad as any mesmer. Unfortunetly - much to my displeasure - most dont gimp themselves by running crappy builds in combat. They kind of like their stealth.

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After I started noticing a trend with Mesmers, I actually made a point to document win and loss rates when the enemy team had a mesmer and my team didn't and vice versa.Without a single exception, over more than 120 matches so far looked at, the team with the mesmer won. It's getting to a point where I don't even consider coincidence any more.Teams with multiple mesmer on one side and non on the other where a complete landslide.

Matches with no Mesmers on either side were the only matches that felt evenly matched and interesting to play. Matches with an equal amount of Mesmers on both teams felt like watching the Mesmers to see who had the better one.

And to be honest, I rather fight every other profession on speed hacks and flickering God mode than a Mirage at this point.Even if you somehow manage to pressure them off the point with most of the team (sacrificing presence somewhere else), you know you will loose it anyway, as they just drop a portal and disengage to instantly come back once it's undefended to take the point or even instantly nuke anyone staying behind to defend it.

I really don't want to play a Mirage, as hopping on something OP and being part of the problem always feels dirty to me, but this profession is just ruining sPvP and WvW roaming for me at this point.

Keep in mind I'm not a fantastic sPvP player, currently fluctuating heavily between Gold 3 and Plat 2 depending on how many matches in a row I have the Mesmer with or against me. But it just seems utterly broken to me.I gladly take tips on how to deal with Mirages though, if there is a way.

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@Asum.4960 said:After I started noticing a trend with Mesmers, I actually made a point to document win and loss rates when the enemy team had a mesmer and my team didn't and vice versa.Without a single exception, over more than 120 matches so far looked at, the team with the mesmer won. It's getting to a point where I don't even consider coincidence any more.Teams with multiple mesmer on one side and non on the other where a complete landslide.

Matches with no Mesmers on either side were the only matches that felt evenly matched and interesting to play. Matches with an equal amount of Mesmers on both teams felt like watching the Mesmers to see who had the better one.

And to be honest, I rather fight every other profession on speed hacks and flickering God mode than a Mirage at this point.Even if you somehow manage to pressure them off the point with most of the team (sacrificing presence somewhere else), you know you will loose it anyway, as they just drop a portal and disengage to instantly come back once it's undefended to take the point or even instantly nuke anyone staying behind to defend it.

I really don't want to play a Mirage, as hopping on something OP and being part of the problem always feels dirty to me, but this profession is just ruining sPvP and WvW roaming for me at this point.

Keep in mind I'm not a fantastic sPvP player, currently fluctuating heavily between Gold 3 and Plat 2 depending on how many matches in a row I have the Mesmer with or against me. But it just seems utterly broken to me.I gladly take tips on how to deal with Mirages though, if there is a way.

So I had this conversation with my guildie who was in a similar situation to you. He hates mesmer. But wont play one. That will already make learning what to do against them an uphill battle. Mesmer has the unique position of being able to completely shut down others who know nothing of their mechanics, play style, and patterns. You cant successfully fight something you know nothing about. That holds true for any profession in this game.That being said. If you ask for help here many players will actually help you IF you are serious about getting better and not just here to complain. I have dueled a couple of people here like arlette and Smurf who are and have been great with build construction and general counter play.What class to you play?It helps to know what classes can generally stalemate or push a mesmer off point.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:I think it's hard to value weapon-skill evasion on thief and things liked Blurred Frenzy and Distortion. Like D/P gets no extra evasion and staff isn't considered that good on thief right now. Kind of like trying to compare OH pistol thief to OH sword on mesmer.

I dont really think its hard to value them at all. Mesmer has a little more pure endurance perhaps, but then again I've seen thieves fight effectivly using only
one
weapon skill and
one
trait and be incredibly hard to hit due to constantly stealthing and dodging. Just steal in, hit once, smoke field, dodge. Thief is gone. Then they will backstab once, smokefield, dodge. Thief is gone. Backstab once, smokefield, dodge. Repeat for like 80% stealth uptime in the fight.

A mesmer cant even come close to that kind of evasion.

I mean that entire tactic is reserved entirely to D/P and the stealth is maintained solely because of Heartseeker, as the endurance regen from Bound is not enough to maintain stealth. It's also two weapon skills, and stealth has little to do with evasion. A thief that's in stealth is still hittable by cleave and anything with action camera, including targeted ranged attacks so it's not fair to say that the stealth uptime immediately implies damage avoidance, either, which is why I refrained from using weapon skills in my math above.

I skipped over Staff Mastery and MH Dagger AA chain because they're exclusive to specific builds and conditions being met. I also ignored weapon skill use as again it's conditional and depends on a few factors as far as the thief's effective cooldowns based on initiative recovery and the weapon skills it's using, as well as whether or not FF is traited for a mirage running dueling. Thief weapon skill dodges outside of S/D also generally have some vulnerability frames as part of their casts so it becomes hard to qualify (and even quantify) evasion. The base dodge gives a full set of evade frames and outside of prior counterplay like immob or stun, can't really be negated.

Endurance Regeneration effects, especially on steal, are shaky; if steal is used as an engage tool, the endurance is effectively never received.

In the case of Mirage with the food:Endurance Regen from vigor and food -> +90% = one new dodge every 5.26s at 1s duration dodge = 1/5.26 = 19.0% uptime

With Daredevil with food:40% regen rate, or 7.15s between dodges at .75s = 10.5% uptime+1 dodge from CV cast @20s cd = 3.75% uptime+1 dodge from SoA @30s = 2.5% uptime= 16.25% uptime.

So if we totally max out evasion without accounting for spamming skills on staff, Daredevil does pull slightly ahead mandating two traitlines and no steal-on-engage assuming BT and Trickery traited and no-engage steal use for CV and PS:10.5 +CV: .75/16 = 4.7 % uptime + 22% from +10 Endurance = 5.7% uptimeSoA: .75/30 = 2.5% uptimePS: .75/20 = 3.75% uptime= 22.45%

PS really becomes the deciding factor. If steal is used for an engage (which is almost always is), mirage has more dodge uptime than Daredevil, even when traited for it and while burning utilities and heals.

so DD has no Vigor?

DD has vigor on steal if they trait for it. Other than that it's the meta Sw/D base thief build which will cap endurance regen from vigor and food.

Daredevil does not have access to Vigor innately, and there is no Vigor-on-steal trait in the game. All sources of vigor on the thief are exclusively limited to the Acrobatics traitline, limited to Vigorous Recovery (Vigor on Heal which is generally not seen as a good trait compared to IR or PR) and Feline Grace, which is Vigor upon evading an attack.

I also did mess up my math above; PS does nothing for Endurance on Steal - I meant Endurance Thief (ET), and the endurance I attributed to Endurance on steal was halfed to 25, making it a 1.88% uptime, or a maximum of 20.57% which is lower than what I calculated.

All thieves have vigor on steal if trained. Look at trickery.Ignoring that makes the entire post comparison disingenuous and seem like an attempt to paint daredevil in a more favorably light than it actually is.Ignoring effects tide to auto attacks and stating its conditional is also fairly one sided considering that with, for example, dueling a mesmer would also need to attack in order to keep a constant upkeep of vigor. That's not a fair comparison.

But I think you knew that

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:Oh wow. I completely forgot BT gives Vigor to be honest.

Granted, a lot of people opt for Trickster now.

Critting once every 5s while having the ability to attack while dodging is pretty different than needing to rotate an entire AA chain as far as the conditional benefits go.

But you can rotate the AA chain when you arrive at your target safely from stealth after a massive backstab....That's not even mentioning that dagger for thief has one of the fastest AA chains in the game as well.

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I think the only problem with Mirage is braindead playstyle... you can give keyboard to any monkey or chimp and they will be succefull. On other hand playing vs Mirage is pain in "domain" to deal with it. in short: mirage is fun to play, but not fun to play against.

So im play as slow-lockdown Mesmer. And to deal with Mirage i run with Arcane Thievery and try kill them with their own weapon, i see no other possibility. Basicaly i try pressure them with chaos storm/auto attack to apply slow. In fight i try predict Cry of Frutration and block it with Shield block, then counter with Shield wall+blurred, after that i try hunt Mirage to use Signet to heal and iterrupt it. Then Transfer all condition to them if everythink goes right i might be able to kill him. But if i make one mistake... im done.

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Critical infusion requires critting every 10s for 5s vigour. In practice it'll be slightly over that depending on crit chance and the flow of a fight. Ie big gaps in vigour that are partly plugged by Nomad's Endurance on its own.

Regarding fun - I subjectively find mirage fun to fight against as well as to play. Yes even fighting against condi mirage - actually I prefer fighting against condi than against power right now, but both are far more fun to fight against than say a brick wall warrior, bunker ele or bunker ranger among other things (due to the aesthetics and flow of a fight).

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@Curunen.8729 said:but both are far more fun to fight against than say a brick wall warrior, bunker ele or bunker ranger among other things (due to the aesthetics and flow of a fight).

My personal favorite is the trailblazer dodge thief. I had one continous fight for about 15 minutes last night. He was basicly dodging every second and nearly impossible to hit. And if he got to like 80% hp it was instantly back to full. Even with me and 5 camp guards, he couldnt get CCed. I get instantly stunned when just looking wrong at a guard. I had hoped someone on my server would come to at least look at a camp thats contested for 15 minutes but nooooo... Instead more enemies came from their spawn to the north camp. They probably walked there.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:but both are far more fun to fight against than say a brick wall warrior, bunker ele or bunker ranger among other things (due to the aesthetics and flow of a fight).

My personal favorite is the trailblazer dodge thief. I had one
continous
fight for about 15 minutes last night. He was basicly dodging every second and nearly impossible to hit. And if he got to like 80% hp it was instantly back to full. Even with me and 5 camp guards, he couldnt get CCed. I get instantly stunned when just looking wrong at a guard. I had hoped someone on my server would come to at least look at a camp thats contested for 15 minutes but nooooo... Instead more enemies came from their spawn to the north camp. They probably walked there.

Oh yeah, that reminds me of a fight I had earlier in the year - though with a high stealth uptime (rather than evade) condi thief and pew pew ranger north of air keep on DBL - on the downhill road by the sentry. I kid you not it was around 30 minutes continuous, no break - I checked the time afterwards and also by the refresh of food during the fight.

And this was when I was using Signet of Inspiration instead of Sand through Glass, so one "dead" utility skill. Had to use every bit of mobility and kiting to survive due to the combination of stealth high condi bombs and ranged power pew pew plus melee. Got the ranger down a couple of times but the thief just refuged them and between that and pet heal it was impossible to do anything. Certainly not to the thief - even if I did burst them they stealthed and went back to full while the ranger piled on the pressure.

I mean yeah sure a 1v2, but if it wasn't for the terrain and porting/kiting around the rocks I nearly went down a few times. In the end I decided to gtfo by the time my hands and brain said they had enough (cue "mesmer disgusting OP can disengage at will" - yeah well they chose not to chase). :/

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@Solori.6025 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:After I started noticing a trend with Mesmers, I actually made a point to document win and loss rates when the enemy team had a mesmer and my team didn't and vice versa.Without a single exception, over more than 120 matches so far looked at, the team with the mesmer won. It's getting to a point where I don't even consider coincidence any more.Teams with multiple mesmer on one side and non on the other where a complete landslide.

Matches with no Mesmers on either side were the only matches that felt evenly matched and interesting to play. Matches with an equal amount of Mesmers on both teams felt like watching the Mesmers to see who had the better one.

And to be honest, I rather fight every other profession on speed hacks and flickering God mode than a Mirage at this point.Even if you somehow manage to pressure them off the point with most of the team (sacrificing presence somewhere else), you know you will loose it anyway, as they just drop a portal and disengage to instantly come back once it's undefended to take the point or even instantly nuke anyone staying behind to defend it.

I really don't want to play a Mirage, as hopping on something OP and being part of the problem always feels dirty to me, but this profession is just ruining sPvP and WvW roaming for me at this point.

Keep in mind I'm not a fantastic sPvP player, currently fluctuating heavily between Gold 3 and Plat 2 depending on how many matches in a row I have the Mesmer with or against me. But it just seems utterly broken to me.I gladly take tips on how to deal with Mirages though, if there is a way.

So I had this conversation with my guildie who was in a similar situation to you. He hates mesmer. But wont play one. That will already make learning what to do against them an uphill battle. Mesmer has the unique position of being able to completely shut down others who know nothing of their mechanics, play style, and patterns. You cant successfully fight something you know nothing about. That holds true for any profession in this game.That being said. If you ask for help here many players will actually help you IF you are serious about getting better and not just here to complain. I have dueled a couple of people here like arlette and Smurf who are and have been great with build construction and general counter play.What class to you play?It helps to know what classes can generally stalemate or push a mesmer off point.

I play all professions, including Mesmer, just not currently in PvP. There I tend to play mostly Scourge, Reaper, FB and occasionally trying Spb, Deadeye and Herald.Enjoying Reaper the most currently.

Fighting, or rather getting oneshot out of stealth isn't my only problem with Mesmer though, it's also that as soon as there is one on one team, that team seems to completely out rotate the other team into a landslide victory, and all my teammates seem equally unable to keep them at bay.

Even if I "win" the fight, it seems almost impossible to prevent the Mesmer from resetting and blink/portal to a point as soon as I step off, or just come back stealthed to try to oneshot me again when most of my key skills are still on CD. That combined with all the clutter of the clones and unstoppable perma dodge finishing of players makes it incredibly unfun to face them.

E: Also Daze.. so much Daze..

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@"Skada.1362" said:Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

brahhhh omg, i'm full ascended fully infused trailblazer B) and ive go to say i'm just enjoying being a broken class winning countless 1v1 2v1 3v1 in WvW, my condi duration maxed out, my condi dmg always goes over 2.5k when fighting (1699base). But the weirdest thing is that I use double staff with energy sigils on weapon staff so i'm basically just spamming chaos orbs and just running around (well kiting :p ). Now I just need need Bifrost to look like an og while killing people ;)btw: I NEVER FIGHT OTHER MIRAGES(MESMERS OVERALL) mirage fighting mirage is just the dumbest confusing thing ever....makes me wanna vomit :/

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@necromaniac.7629 said:

@"Skada.1362" said:Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

brahhhh omg, i'm full ascended fully infused trailblazer B) and ive go to say i'm just enjoying being a broken class winning countless 1v1 2v1 3v1 in WvW, my condi duration maxed out, my condi dmg always goes over 2.5k when fighting (1699base). But the weirdest thing is that I use double staff with energy sigils on weapon staff so i'm basically just spamming chaos orbs and just running around (well kiting :p ). Now I just need need Bifrost to look like an og while killing people ;)btw: I NEVER FIGHT OTHER MIRAGES(MESMERS OVERALL) mirage fighting mirage is just the dumbest confusing thing ever....makes me wanna vomit :/

Ah now I can see why it's a struggle in your other thread.

In general full/pure condi with no power component is the most easily countered by mesmer itself - because mesmer is capable of building for a lot of cleanse and also is allowed more freedom when not being quickly forced into defensive play. Especially if you're using double staff and have no ability to catch and burst, opponent mesmers will burst and still kite all the slow staff damage.

While trailblazer is great in outnumbered and vs other classes, generally in a 1v1 vs mesmer it will be more difficult than if building in some power, and/or taking a different weapon such as sword or axe (which also gives you access to torch and pistol for defence/damage or control/damage).

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:After I started noticing a trend with Mesmers, I actually made a point to document win and loss rates when the enemy team had a mesmer and my team didn't and vice versa.Without a single exception, over more than 120 matches so far looked at, the team with the mesmer won. It's getting to a point where I don't even consider coincidence any more.Teams with multiple mesmer on one side and non on the other where a complete landslide.

Matches with no Mesmers on either side were the only matches that felt evenly matched and interesting to play. Matches with an equal amount of Mesmers on both teams felt like watching the Mesmers to see who had the better one.

And to be honest, I rather fight every other profession on speed hacks and flickering God mode than a Mirage at this point.Even if you somehow manage to pressure them off the point with most of the team (sacrificing presence somewhere else), you know you will loose it anyway, as they just drop a portal and disengage to instantly come back once it's undefended to take the point or even instantly nuke anyone staying behind to defend it.

I really don't want to play a Mirage, as hopping on something OP and being part of the problem always feels dirty to me, but this profession is just ruining sPvP and WvW roaming for me at this point.

Keep in mind I'm not a fantastic sPvP player, currently fluctuating heavily between Gold 3 and Plat 2 depending on how many matches in a row I have the Mesmer with or against me. But it just seems utterly broken to me.I gladly take tips on how to deal with Mirages though, if there is a way.

So I had this conversation with my guildie who was in a similar situation to you. He hates mesmer. But wont play one. That will already make learning what to do against them an uphill battle. Mesmer has the unique position of being able to completely shut down others who know nothing of their mechanics, play style, and patterns. You cant successfully fight something you know nothing about. That holds true for any profession in this game.That being said. If you ask for help here many players will actually help you IF you are serious about getting better and not just here to complain. I have dueled a couple of people here like arlette and Smurf who are and have been great with build construction and general counter play.What class to you play?It helps to know what classes can generally stalemate or push a mesmer off point.

I play all professions, including Mesmer, just not currently in PvP. There I tend to play mostly Scourge, Reaper, FB and occasionally trying Spb, Deadeye and Herald.Enjoying Reaper the most currently.

Fighting, or rather getting oneshot out of stealth isn't my only problem with Mesmer though, it's also that as soon as there is one on one team, that team seems to completely out rotate the other team into a landslide victory, and all my teammates seem equally unable to keep them at bay.

Even if I "win" the fight, it seems almost impossible to prevent the Mesmer from resetting and blink/portal to a point as soon as I step off, or just come back stealthed to try to oneshot me again when most of my key skills are still on CD. That combined with all the clutter of the clones and unstoppable perma dodge finishing of players makes it incredibly unfun to face them.

E: Also Daze.. so much Daze..

So a couple of things.When you are fighting a mesmer, especially the power ( since that is what you mentioned) Since you have played mesmer you should have no problem at all dodging the burst when you notice a mesmer approaching.Like most of the classes with stealth access and heavy burst ( thief,ranger,holo) If you get caught you are immediately on the defensive.Classes with plenty of AoE pressure like Spellbreaker and Holosmith can counter pressure a power mes quite well by denying them their main mechanic through cleave.Of course you should know this assuming you are fighting people that are competent and know how to use the stage to their advantage.A Power mesmer in Spvp that takes portal will not have a lot of dazes unless they sacrifice something and since no mesmer in their right mind would give up blink that means they wont have the back up stealth, and if by some chance you fight a power mesmer with IH and not EM- a condi thief or any condition burst class can kill them ( me and @Bigpapasmurf.5623 tested this a little with a condi thief vs a mesmer using IH)But this should be common knowledge so forgive my lecturing as I'm sure you already know all this, just reiterating it for the moaners or fake mains that don't

Try spellbreaker vs power mes. Spellbreaker ( which is my secondary class) has plenty of AoE's and blocks to cover your mistakes, but also enough damage and cleave ( which is very important) to counterpressure a mesmer. You have reflects and passives for the multitude of one shot classes ( ranger,theif,mesmer) and enough sustain to hold onto points until your group rotates to assist. Because of the layout of a lot of the points (not mid points, as those are usually open and have an ongoing teamfight) you can easily LoS most (if not all) classes and force them into your engagement zone, and taking a point ( or neutralizing it) is a little easier because points are about the size of a melee encounter.

If a mesmer ( or any class for that matter) has to leave a point, say the mesmer blinks away ( or portals away) and resets the fight. You won that fight, you still control the point ( or have neutralized the point and can either rotate or move out of LoS and wait for the mesmer to go back to take the point and kill it). If they are out of combat, you are out of combat. Use the time to re-position and not stand in the middle twiddling your thumbs.Remember also this is a team game. If you know you are going up against a class you are bad against. Don't run off alone.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Skada.1362" said:Lets be real here guys, Mirage (condi, hybrid and power versions) are all pretty overtuned and have been for quite some time. I got a bit over 3k hours on my Mesmer, doing nothing but WvW roam, mostly solo, and in this current patch I got burnt out with the class and started roaming on other builds like SD core thief (got 4k hours on thief too :p) Marauder DH, Mara rifle Holo etc and it wasn't until then I got the proper perspective on how OP Mirage really is.

I used to be the guy who defended Mirage telling people "you have to do this and that to beat a Mirage" but man, it really is the best class in game by far. It got to the point where I feel its simply way to easy to win over others and even if I was about to get my butt kicked in outnumbered fights I would simply escape with EASE. I mean, as a full zerker mirage I could jump straight into a 60 man zerg and shatter 5 players and get out with no problems what so ever. Any 1v1 vs any build isn't a problem, and don't even get me started on full ascended fully infused Trailblazer Mirage I mean what the actual F.You literally get EVERYTHING in one package. Zero weaknesses. Zero challenges.

brahhhh omg, i'm full ascended fully infused trailblazer B) and ive go to say i'm just enjoying being a broken class winning countless 1v1 2v1 3v1 in WvW, my condi duration maxed out, my condi dmg always goes over 2.5k when fighting (1699base). But the weirdest thing is that I use double staff with energy sigils on weapon staff so i'm basically just spamming chaos orbs and just running around (well kiting :p ). Now I just need need Bifrost to look like an og while killing people ;)btw: I NEVER FIGHT OTHER MIRAGES(MESMERS OVERALL) mirage fighting mirage is just the dumbest confusing thing ever....makes me wanna vomit :/

Ah now I can see why it's a struggle in your other thread.

In general full/pure condi with no power component is the most easily countered by mesmer itself - because mesmer is capable of building for a lot of cleanse and also is allowed more freedom when not being quickly forced into defensive play. Especially if you're using double staff and have no ability to catch and burst, opponent mesmers will burst and still kite all the slow staff damage.

While trailblazer is great in outnumbered and vs other classes, generally in a 1v1 vs mesmer it will be more difficult than if building in some power, and/or taking a different weapon such as sword or axe (which also gives you access to torch and pistol for defence/damage or control/damage).

true true but you think I should change up my equipment so I can handle them or just stay away from them cause staying away from em easier for me :p , I can use sword/axe and torch/pistol but ive got to come with something weird or unexpected so enemies cant really counter me and they be wondering what hit them, I just love when I stack that torment bleed and burn on them and just watch them eat they're health in seconds :3 Brahhh it would be so rad if chaos vortex inflicted torment confusion and burn, well it use to inflict confusion but meh :/ :p :#

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@Solori.6025 said:

@Asum.4960 said:After I started noticing a trend with Mesmers, I actually made a point to document win and loss rates when the enemy team had a mesmer and my team didn't and vice versa.Without a single exception, over more than 120 matches so far looked at, the team with the mesmer won. It's getting to a point where I don't even consider coincidence any more.Teams with multiple mesmer on one side and non on the other where a complete landslide.

Matches with no Mesmers on either side were the only matches that felt evenly matched and interesting to play. Matches with an equal amount of Mesmers on both teams felt like watching the Mesmers to see who had the better one.

And to be honest, I rather fight every other profession on speed hacks and flickering God mode than a Mirage at this point.Even if you somehow manage to pressure them off the point with most of the team (sacrificing presence somewhere else), you know you will loose it anyway, as they just drop a portal and disengage to instantly come back once it's undefended to take the point or even instantly nuke anyone staying behind to defend it.

I really don't want to play a Mirage, as hopping on something OP and being part of the problem always feels dirty to me, but this profession is just ruining sPvP and WvW roaming for me at this point.

Keep in mind I'm not a fantastic sPvP player, currently fluctuating heavily between Gold 3 and Plat 2 depending on how many matches in a row I have the Mesmer with or against me. But it just seems utterly broken to me.I gladly take tips on how to deal with Mirages though, if there is a way.

So I had this conversation with my guildie who was in a similar situation to you. He hates mesmer. But wont play one. That will already make learning what to do against them an uphill battle. Mesmer has the unique position of being able to completely shut down others who know nothing of their mechanics, play style, and patterns. You cant successfully fight something you know nothing about. That holds true for any profession in this game.That being said. If you ask for help here many players will actually help you IF you are serious about getting better and not just here to complain. I have dueled a couple of people here like arlette and Smurf who are and have been great with build construction and general counter play.What class to you play?It helps to know what classes can generally stalemate or push a mesmer off point.

I play all professions, including Mesmer, just not currently in PvP. There I tend to play mostly Scourge, Reaper, FB and occasionally trying Spb, Deadeye and Herald.Enjoying Reaper the most currently.

Fighting, or rather getting oneshot out of stealth isn't my only problem with Mesmer though, it's also that as soon as there is one on one team, that team seems to completely out rotate the other team into a landslide victory, and all my teammates seem equally unable to keep them at bay.

Even if I "win" the fight, it seems almost impossible to prevent the Mesmer from resetting and blink/portal to a point as soon as I step off, or just come back stealthed to try to oneshot me again when most of my key skills are still on CD. That combined with all the clutter of the clones and unstoppable perma dodge finishing of players makes it incredibly unfun to face them.

E: Also Daze.. so much Daze..

So a couple of things.When you are fighting a mesmer, especially the power ( since that is what you mentioned) Since you have played mesmer you should have no problem at all dodging the burst when you notice a mesmer approaching.Like most of the classes with stealth access and heavy burst ( thief,ranger,holo) If you get caught you are immediately on the defensive.Classes with plenty of AoE pressure like Spellbreaker and Holosmith can counter pressure a power mes quite well by denying them their main mechanic through cleave.Of course you should know this assuming you are fighting people that are competent and know how to use the stage to their advantage.A Power mesmer in Spvp that takes portal will not have a lot of dazes unless they sacrifice something and since no mesmer in their right mind would give up blink that means they wont have the back up stealth, and if by some chance you fight a power mesmer with IH and not EM- a condi thief or any condition burst class can kill them ( me and @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" tested this a little with a condi thief vs a mesmer using IH)But this should be common knowledge so forgive my lecturing as I'm sure you already know all this, just reiterating it for the moaners or fake mains that don't

Try spellbreaker vs power mes. Spellbreaker ( which is my secondary class) has plenty of AoE's and blocks to cover your mistakes, but also enough damage and cleave ( which is very important) to counterpressure a mesmer. You have reflects and passives for the multitude of one shot classes ( ranger,theif,mesmer) and enough sustain to hold onto points until your group rotates to assist. Because of the layout of a lot of the points (not mid points, as those are usually open and have an ongoing teamfight) you can easily LoS most (if not all) classes and force them into your engagement zone, and taking a point ( or neutralizing it) is a little easier because points are about the size of a melee encounter.

If a mesmer ( or any class for that matter) has to leave a point, say the mesmer blinks away ( or portals away) and resets the fight. You won that fight, you still control the point ( or have neutralized the point and can either rotate or move out of LoS and wait for the mesmer to go back to take the point and kill it). If they are out of combat, you are out of combat. Use the time to re-position and not stand in the middle twiddling your thumbs.Remember also this is a team game. If you know you are going up against a class you are bad against. Don't run off alone.

Condi Mirages seem not much less "one-shotty", as they appear (or not) stealthed around a corner, load you up with enough condis to kill you in 5 seconds and then cycle between interrupting any attempt to cleanse/heal and being invulnerable, generally both at the same time.With Mirage Thrust, Magic Bullet, Phantasmal Mage and potentially the Shatter they do have a nonsensical amount of interrupts with dazes, all while the victim is already trying to somehow deal with 20 stacks of confusion and some torment and other covers.

It might very well be that I need to get much better at predicting the initial burst or spotting the Mesmer approaching in the first place and have much to learn which could help me deal with mirages better (rotating and map reading are definitely still my biggest weak points, which Mesmers seem to exploit more than any other spec), but the class still seems ridiculously overtuned compared to every single other spec I face. With everything else I loose, I analyse, I learn, I do better.

Mirages seem almost untouchable, to me, and seemingly every single player I have played with as well as played against. With, as mentioned, a Mirage or multiple on one team seemingly deciding the outcome of a match before it even starts, with so far a 100% accuracy over now 150 ish games taken note of. The team with more Mesmers won.

The problem, and what sets it apart from let's say a Thief that jumps on me unexpectedly, is that I feel like I have counters available.I can stunbreak immediately if necessary and follow up with counter CC-/or bursting, and generally win.A Mesmer that land's it's burst, or well, even misses it, goes from evade to evade, all while still applying pressure and constant interrupts.From the dodging while still being able to use abilities to things like Axes of Symmetry, Blurred Frenzy and potentially Distort and a chain of Dazes, I'm often dead to Mesmers before landing more than 1-3 skills, all while comfortably dueling everything else in the game (or feeling like learning from losses) that isn't an absolute hard counter to what I'm currently playing.

All that combined with stealth, very high in and out of combat mobility and the horrible visual clutter that is phantasms and clones as well as stomping with absoluty impunity is just incredibly unfun and frustrating to play against and really souring the gamemode of sPvP as well as WvW roaming for me.

The only time I ever see Mesmers going down is when they severely overestimate themselves in outnumbered situations (which is not surprising since I have watched team mates loose 4vs1's against Mesmers over a point while trying to hold onto something else), and critically misplaying, getting caught in chain CC while out of dodges, Jaunt's and breaks.

All that said, I appreciate you trying to give tips and I will continue to try to improve against Mesmers, and if I have to, play one in PvP eventually myself (to win, and to learn), before I decide to quit those modes until a patch adresses the issue further.Right now, the only fun in sPvP I have are the rare matches without a Mesmer on either side, as I can't call those before they even start, and every other class just being much more fun and interesting to play against and with.

But I would like to ask you, as a Mesmer Main, where do you currently see Mirage on a scale from fundamentally brokenly OP to perfectly Balanced?

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:After I started noticing a trend with Mesmers, I actually made a point to document win and loss rates when the enemy team had a mesmer and my team didn't and vice versa.Without a single exception, over more than 120 matches so far looked at, the team with the mesmer won. It's getting to a point where I don't even consider coincidence any more.Teams with multiple mesmer on one side and non on the other where a complete landslide.

Matches with no Mesmers on either side were the only matches that felt evenly matched and interesting to play. Matches with an equal amount of Mesmers on both teams felt like watching the Mesmers to see who had the better one.

And to be honest, I rather fight every other profession on speed hacks and flickering God mode than a Mirage at this point.Even if you somehow manage to pressure them off the point with most of the team (sacrificing presence somewhere else), you know you will loose it anyway, as they just drop a portal and disengage to instantly come back once it's undefended to take the point or even instantly nuke anyone staying behind to defend it.

I really don't want to play a Mirage, as hopping on something OP and being part of the problem always feels dirty to me, but this profession is just ruining sPvP and WvW roaming for me at this point.

Keep in mind I'm not a fantastic sPvP player, currently fluctuating heavily between Gold 3 and Plat 2 depending on how many matches in a row I have the Mesmer with or against me. But it just seems utterly broken to me.I gladly take tips on how to deal with Mirages though, if there is a way.

So I had this conversation with my guildie who was in a similar situation to you. He hates mesmer. But wont play one. That will already make learning what to do against them an uphill battle. Mesmer has the unique position of being able to completely shut down others who know nothing of their mechanics, play style, and patterns. You cant successfully fight something you know nothing about. That holds true for any profession in this game.That being said. If you ask for help here many players will actually help you IF you are serious about getting better and not just here to complain. I have dueled a couple of people here like arlette and Smurf who are and have been great with build construction and general counter play.What class to you play?It helps to know what classes can generally stalemate or push a mesmer off point.

I play all professions, including Mesmer, just not currently in PvP. There I tend to play mostly Scourge, Reaper, FB and occasionally trying Spb, Deadeye and Herald.Enjoying Reaper the most currently.

Fighting, or rather getting oneshot out of stealth isn't my only problem with Mesmer though, it's also that as soon as there is one on one team, that team seems to completely out rotate the other team into a landslide victory, and all my teammates seem equally unable to keep them at bay.

Even if I "win" the fight, it seems almost impossible to prevent the Mesmer from resetting and blink/portal to a point as soon as I step off, or just come back stealthed to try to oneshot me again when most of my key skills are still on CD. That combined with all the clutter of the clones and unstoppable perma dodge finishing of players makes it incredibly unfun to face them.

E: Also Daze.. so much Daze..

So a couple of things.When you are fighting a mesmer, especially the power ( since that is what you mentioned) Since you have played mesmer you should have no problem at all dodging the burst when you notice a mesmer approaching.Like most of the classes with stealth access and heavy burst ( thief,ranger,holo) If you get caught you are immediately on the defensive.Classes with plenty of AoE pressure like Spellbreaker and Holosmith can counter pressure a power mes quite well by denying them their main mechanic through cleave.Of course you should know this assuming you are fighting people that are competent and know how to use the stage to their advantage.A Power mesmer in Spvp that takes portal will not have a lot of dazes unless they sacrifice something and since no mesmer in their right mind would give up blink that means they wont have the back up stealth, and if by some chance you fight a power mesmer with IH and not EM- a condi thief or any condition burst class can kill them ( me and @Bigpapasmurf.5623 tested this a little with a condi thief vs a mesmer using IH)But this should be common knowledge so forgive my lecturing as I'm sure you already know all this, just reiterating it for the moaners or fake mains that don't

Try spellbreaker vs power mes. Spellbreaker ( which is my secondary class) has plenty of AoE's and blocks to cover your mistakes, but also enough damage and cleave ( which is very important) to counterpressure a mesmer. You have reflects and passives for the multitude of one shot classes ( ranger,theif,mesmer) and enough sustain to hold onto points until your group rotates to assist. Because of the layout of a lot of the points (not mid points, as those are usually open and have an ongoing teamfight) you can easily LoS most (if not all) classes and force them into your engagement zone, and taking a point ( or neutralizing it) is a little easier because points are about the size of a melee encounter.

If a mesmer ( or any class for that matter) has to leave a point, say the mesmer blinks away ( or portals away) and resets the fight. You won that fight, you still control the point ( or have neutralized the point and can either rotate or move out of LoS and wait for the mesmer to go back to take the point and kill it). If they are out of combat, you are out of combat. Use the time to re-position and not stand in the middle twiddling your thumbs.Remember also this is a team game. If you know you are going up against a class you are bad against. Don't run off alone.

Condi Mirages seem not much less "one-shotty", as they appear (or not) stealthed around a corner, load you up with enough condis to kill you in 5 seconds and then cycle between interrupting any attempt to cleanse/heal and being invulnerable, generally both at the same time.With Mirage Thrust, Magic Bullet, Phantasmal Mage and potentially the Shatter they do have a nonsensical amount of interrupts with dazes, all while the victim is already trying to somehow deal with 20 stacks of confusion and some torment and other covers.

It might very well be that I need to get much better at predicting the initial burst or spotting the Mesmer approaching in the first place and have much to learn which could help me deal with mirages better (rotating and map reading are definitely still my biggest weak points, which Mesmers seem to exploit more than any other spec), but the class still seems ridiculously overtuned compared to every single other spec I face. With everything else I loose, I analyse, I learn, I do better.

Mirages seem almost untouchable, to me, and seemingly every single player I have played with as well as played against. With, as mentioned, a Mirage or multiple on one team seemingly deciding the outcome of a match before it even starts, with so far a 100% accuracy over now 150 ish games taken note of. The team with more Mesmers won.

The problem, and what sets it apart from let's say a Thief that jumps on me unexpectedly, is that I feel like I have counters available.I can stunbreak immediately if necessary and follow up with counter CC-/or bursting, and generally win.A Mesmer that land's it's burst, or well, even misses it, goes from evade to evade, all while still applying pressure and constant interrupts.From the dodging while still being able to use abilities to things like Axes of Symmetry, Blurred Frenzy and potentially Distort and a chain of Dazes, I'm often dead to Mesmers before landing more than 1-3 skills, all while comfortably dueling everything else in the game (or feeling like learning from losses) that isn't an absolute hard counter to what I'm currently playing.

All that combined with stealth, very high in and out of combat mobility and the horrible visual clutter that is phantasms and clones as well as stomping with absoluty impunity is just incredibly unfun and frustrating to play against and really souring the gamemode of sPvP as well as WvW roaming for me.

The only time I ever see Mesmers going down is when they severely overestimate themselves in outnumbered situations (which is not surprising since I have watched team mates loose 4vs1's against Mesmers over a point while trying to hold onto something else), and critically misplaying, getting caught in chain CC while out of dodges, Jaunt's and breaks.

All that said, I appreciate you trying to give tips and I will continue to try to improve against Mesmers, and if I have to, play one in PvP eventually myself (to win, and to learn), before I decide to quit those modes until a patch adresses the issue further.Right now, the only fun in sPvP I have are the rare matches without a Mesmer on either side, as I can't call those before they even start, and every other class just being much more fun and interesting to play against and with.

But I would like to ask you, as a Mesmer Main, where do you currently see Mirage on a scale from fundamentally brokenly OP to perfectly Balanced?

Condi mirage is a different beast. I have said this before and I will say this again.Burst condition builds on ANY class should not be a thing.That being said. You need to know what the condition combo looks like when you face a full melee condi mirage, as again a well played spellbreaker has plenty of AoEs and in condi mirages case resistance to deal a little bit with mirage. It's why I recommended it.When you learn what a mirage looks like with when it uses Axe3 ( like you'll lose the target and everything will be melee range) you can effectively dodge a big chunk of confusion. Too many times I have watched people eat 6 stacks of confusion by standing and letting someone Axe3 with 3 clones out and they kill themselves auto attacking air. ( another thing be mindful of your autos). So I would learn that animation first and get used to punishing when the mesmer lands. Axe 2 is not an evade. I think people get confused when they see this ability and think the pink axe is mirage cloak. That move animation locks a mesmer. And you can hard punish them during the entire animation. It also spawns a clone in melee range which is cleave fooder.

Don't tab target unless you have the settings for it ( I'll look at those when I am online and post them if I remember. I'm old and my memory sucks ?).A mesmer only has 2 dodges. If you cleave clones that means 1s of distortion as well from f4 and 1s of blurred frenzy which locks them in place.If a mesmer uses blurred frenzy and mirage cloak at the same time they messed up.

Pistol you will eat a bunch of times until you learn what their pattern is. Because to me pistol 5 and 4 look the same. For i-mage you simply have to strafe. The phantasm has a long animation that can be side stepped out of or interrupted and a lot of the time I will accidentally full counter it to death. Mirage thrust puts the mesmer in melee range and also uses up a dodge. If you notice a mesmer spamming mirage thrust and axes of symmetry and you have been cleaving clones they are not going to have a lot of dodges to deal with counter pressure.Now though spellbreaker has a lot of ways to deal with mesmer. You will still have times where you mistime a dodge or you get baited. Mesmer is a duelistThat's what it does, you have to look at the mechanics around you and not panic and if it gets to bad or you eat a confusion bombAs a spellbreaker you can nope the kitten off for a little and retry. Because your sustain is that good.I dont think condi mirage is fine. But then again I dont think any condi build right now is fine. Perma stealth venom thief is back in WvW. Condi mirage still imo has too much frequency of application. Scourge has too much AoE and boon corrupt. And Condi ranger is just annoying. I hate all condi builds equally. So to answer your question a little better.Power mirage is right where it needs to be. You dodge burst. You counterpressure. You eat burst. You have to outplay the opponent until you can counter pressure. Like any power build ( minus holo and thats a different issue).

But all burst condition builds in this game need to be looked at objectively and not in a vacuum. And either condition cleanses need to be buffed. Condition stacks on attacks reduced. Or the frequency of mass condition application needs to be adjusted. So no, condi mirage is not, in my opinion, healthy for the game right now. Especially because I can honestly only think of one class able to effectively deal with it.

But that's been an issue this game has had with condition builds since it's inception..either condi is incredibly weak and that's severely understating how bad they once were. Or the are incredibly powerful on one or two classes.

P.S. also stop being a defeatist. If mesmer gives you that much trouble you need to play it and play against it. It's what I and many others did against everybuild we have issues with. When power thief hard countered mesmer a lot of us played and played against thief so we weren't a complete burden to the team. Same thing people did vs any build or builds we have issues with. If you need dueling buddies ask. If you are on NA @Arlette.9684 @Bigpapasmurf.5623 @Delrago.2098 ( the last one is the guy who has been helping me learn more about mes and he plays base mes and does pretty well) and myself would be happy to go a few rounds or just do skills so you can see what they look like. You could also make a new thread and ask for some more mesmer mains to help you. We have a community of people willing to teach you stuff if you honestly want to get better fighting and dueling.Practice makes permanent.

Edit2: I also realized I volunteered people. Sorry guys.You should ask them first of they are ok with it.Sorry again > _ <

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:After I started noticing a trend with Mesmers, I actually made a point to document win and loss rates when the enemy team had a mesmer and my team didn't and vice versa.Without a single exception, over more than 120 matches so far looked at, the team with the mesmer won. It's getting to a point where I don't even consider coincidence any more.Teams with multiple mesmer on one side and non on the other where a complete landslide.

Matches with no Mesmers on either side were the only matches that felt evenly matched and interesting to play. Matches with an equal amount of Mesmers on both teams felt like watching the Mesmers to see who had the better one.

And to be honest, I rather fight every other profession on speed hacks and flickering God mode than a Mirage at this point.Even if you somehow manage to pressure them off the point with most of the team (sacrificing presence somewhere else), you know you will loose it anyway, as they just drop a portal and disengage to instantly come back once it's undefended to take the point or even instantly nuke anyone staying behind to defend it.

I really don't want to play a Mirage, as hopping on something OP and being part of the problem always feels dirty to me, but this profession is just ruining sPvP and WvW roaming for me at this point.

Keep in mind I'm not a fantastic sPvP player, currently fluctuating heavily between Gold 3 and Plat 2 depending on how many matches in a row I have the Mesmer with or against me. But it just seems utterly broken to me.I gladly take tips on how to deal with Mirages though, if there is a way.

So I had this conversation with my guildie who was in a similar situation to you. He hates mesmer. But wont play one. That will already make learning what to do against them an uphill battle. Mesmer has the unique position of being able to completely shut down others who know nothing of their mechanics, play style, and patterns. You cant successfully fight something you know nothing about. That holds true for any profession in this game.That being said. If you ask for help here many players will actually help you IF you are serious about getting better and not just here to complain. I have dueled a couple of people here like arlette and Smurf who are and have been great with build construction and general counter play.What class to you play?It helps to know what classes can generally stalemate or push a mesmer off point.

I play all professions, including Mesmer, just not currently in PvP. There I tend to play mostly Scourge, Reaper, FB and occasionally trying Spb, Deadeye and Herald.Enjoying Reaper the most currently.

Fighting, or rather getting oneshot out of stealth isn't my only problem with Mesmer though, it's also that as soon as there is one on one team, that team seems to completely out rotate the other team into a landslide victory, and all my teammates seem equally unable to keep them at bay.

Even if I "win" the fight, it seems almost impossible to prevent the Mesmer from resetting and blink/portal to a point as soon as I step off, or just come back stealthed to try to oneshot me again when most of my key skills are still on CD. That combined with all the clutter of the clones and unstoppable perma dodge finishing of players makes it incredibly unfun to face them.

E: Also Daze.. so much Daze..

So a couple of things.When you are fighting a mesmer, especially the power ( since that is what you mentioned) Since you have played mesmer you should have no problem at all dodging the burst when you notice a mesmer approaching.Like most of the classes with stealth access and heavy burst ( thief,ranger,holo) If you get caught you are immediately on the defensive.Classes with plenty of AoE pressure like Spellbreaker and Holosmith can counter pressure a power mes quite well by denying them their main mechanic through cleave.Of course you should know this assuming you are fighting people that are competent and know how to use the stage to their advantage.A Power mesmer in Spvp that takes portal will not have a lot of dazes unless they sacrifice something and since no mesmer in their right mind would give up blink that means they wont have the back up stealth, and if by some chance you fight a power mesmer with IH and not EM- a condi thief or any condition burst class can kill them ( me and @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" tested this a little with a condi thief vs a mesmer using IH)But this should be common knowledge so forgive my lecturing as I'm sure you already know all this, just reiterating it for the moaners or fake mains that don't

Try spellbreaker vs power mes. Spellbreaker ( which is my secondary class) has plenty of AoE's and blocks to cover your mistakes, but also enough damage and cleave ( which is very important) to counterpressure a mesmer. You have reflects and passives for the multitude of one shot classes ( ranger,theif,mesmer) and enough sustain to hold onto points until your group rotates to assist. Because of the layout of a lot of the points (not mid points, as those are usually open and have an ongoing teamfight) you can easily LoS most (if not all) classes and force them into your engagement zone, and taking a point ( or neutralizing it) is a little easier because points are about the size of a melee encounter.

If a mesmer ( or any class for that matter) has to leave a point, say the mesmer blinks away ( or portals away) and resets the fight. You won that fight, you still control the point ( or have neutralized the point and can either rotate or move out of LoS and wait for the mesmer to go back to take the point and kill it). If they are out of combat, you are out of combat. Use the time to re-position and not stand in the middle twiddling your thumbs.Remember also this is a team game. If you know you are going up against a class you are bad against. Don't run off alone.

Condi Mirages seem not much less "one-shotty", as they appear (or not) stealthed around a corner, load you up with enough condis to kill you in 5 seconds and then cycle between interrupting any attempt to cleanse/heal and being invulnerable, generally both at the same time.With Mirage Thrust, Magic Bullet, Phantasmal Mage and potentially the Shatter they do have a nonsensical amount of interrupts with dazes, all while the victim is already trying to somehow deal with 20 stacks of confusion and some torment and other covers.

It might very well be that I need to get much better at predicting the initial burst or spotting the Mesmer approaching in the first place and have much to learn which could help me deal with mirages better (rotating and map reading are definitely still my biggest weak points, which Mesmers seem to exploit more than any other spec), but the class still seems ridiculously overtuned compared to every single other spec I face. With everything else I loose, I analyse, I learn, I do better.

Mirages seem almost untouchable, to me, and seemingly every single player I have played with as well as played against. With, as mentioned, a Mirage or multiple on one team seemingly deciding the outcome of a match before it even starts, with so far a 100% accuracy over now 150 ish games taken note of. The team with more Mesmers won.

The problem, and what sets it apart from let's say a Thief that jumps on me unexpectedly, is that I feel like I have counters available.I can stunbreak immediately if necessary and follow up with counter CC-/or bursting, and generally win.A Mesmer that land's it's burst, or well, even misses it, goes from evade to evade, all while still applying pressure and constant interrupts.From the dodging while still being able to use abilities to things like Axes of Symmetry, Blurred Frenzy and potentially Distort and a chain of Dazes, I'm often dead to Mesmers before landing more than 1-3 skills, all while comfortably dueling everything else in the game (or feeling like learning from losses) that isn't an absolute hard counter to what I'm currently playing.

All that combined with stealth, very high in and out of combat mobility and the horrible visual clutter that is phantasms and clones as well as stomping with absoluty impunity is just incredibly unfun and frustrating to play against and really souring the gamemode of sPvP as well as WvW roaming for me.

The only time I ever see Mesmers going down is when they severely overestimate themselves in outnumbered situations (which is not surprising since I have watched team mates loose 4vs1's against Mesmers over a point while trying to hold onto something else), and critically misplaying, getting caught in chain CC while out of dodges, Jaunt's and breaks.

All that said, I appreciate you trying to give tips and I will continue to try to improve against Mesmers, and if I have to, play one in PvP eventually myself (to win, and to learn), before I decide to quit those modes until a patch adresses the issue further.Right now, the only fun in sPvP I have are the rare matches without a Mesmer on either side, as I can't call those before they even start, and every other class just being much more fun and interesting to play against and with.

But I would like to ask you, as a Mesmer Main, where do you currently see Mirage on a scale from fundamentally brokenly OP to perfectly Balanced?

If you want to learn to fight vs mirage, Id be more than happy to spar against you (if you are NA). DPS Mirage is currently my WvW main and while I will never claim to be great at it, I am at least decent enough to learn something from. Look me up in game if you are down for sparring. Im always up for dueling people.

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 @Solori.6025

I'm on EU, but thank you very much for the offers.I got my Mirage running for PvP now. Haven't done much aside from a few test matches yet as it is off season and it's hard to judge the skill levels of the opponents, but while I have much to learn still, it seems pretty nuts.

Kind of dislike to become what I hate, but I guess I'm just going to enjoy Mirage in it's current state while it lasts.Playing it currently, it feels like the only thing that can stop me, is me messing up since I'm not very good at all at Mirage yet.

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